4 ms·

It's clear that many commenters here are operating from completely different factual bases, in terms of who did what, and in what order. Fog of war seems to be

by jl6 1y ago

It's clear that many commenters here are operating from completely different factual bases, in terms of who did what, and in what order. Fog of war seems to be in effect.

typeofhuman 1y ago
Correct. Lots of emotions in here too. I wonder if this is an appropriate HN post.
- Trasmatta 1y ago
  Last I checked, emotions aren't banned from HN
  - CSMastermind 1y ago
    No but generally this place tries to encourage curious discussion and this thread seems to have moved squarely away from an attempt to learn or understand something into venting and flame war territory.
    - beyondHelp 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      We're in a post fact era, so ignoring facts seems inevitable in lieu of emotion.
thesuitonym 1y ago
Fog of war? Call it what it is: A misinformation campaign fueled by one of the most successful propaganda networks in history.
- laurent_du 1y ago
  The funny thing is that it's impossible to know which side you belong to just by reading this one comment.
  - thrance 1y ago
    Yes it is. Funding of right-wing media is orders of magnitude more expensive than that of left-wing media. You're just muddying the waters.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    The law is not on Trump's side. That makes this pretty decisive.
aaronbaugher 1y ago
It takes a lot of words to convince people not to believe what they can see for themselves in video.
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [dead]
- socalgal2 1y ago
  Everyone sees what they want to see. Some see a Mexican invasion as the protesters are carrying flags of Mexico. Not sure why they’d expect that to garner support. Some see violence against police / military Some see poor people being abused by people in power. Some see violence against powerless people Some see actors staging fake protests (see thread for proof that some people see this) Some see political posturing
- laurent_du 1y ago
  Not really? These people will simply disregard the clips, claiming they are a piece of right-wing propaganda, and that the protest are peaceful, because how could it be otherwise? Of course fighting ICE, feds, and helping criminals (in some case drug dealers and even at least one murderer) is inherently peaceful, just like the BLM riots were.
  - thrance 1y ago
    You're one of them. Seen the protester getting trampled by LAPD on their horses? Seen the journalist getting shot gratuitously at point-blank by a cop? AFAIK, no was was hurt by protesters. The cops on the other hand... And let's not even mention the reason behind it all: ICE's torture center, and the multiple raids they carry in the city, to abduct legal immigrants.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Because the BLM protests WERE peaceful. I went to some - man, we just walked around. What happened was that people took clips of events in specific cities at specific times and then tried to extrapolate that out. When, in reality, most protests had no violence. Meanwhile, police were shooting rubber bullets at people while the people were just standing there. Even now, with these "riots", most of the clips I'm seeing are actually from BLM protests years ago. Does anybody know this? Is anybody fact-checking anything? Apparently not. But, for gullible authoritarians that's all it takes. Show them a picture of a car on fire and their mind will hop and skip out of their ear.
beyondHelp 1y ago
No data can change Belief.
- distortionfield 1y ago
  Not without it being received in earnest. You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
anonymid 1y ago
I agree - there seems to be talking past each other about some very fundamental things: How extensive is the violence of the protests? I saw some images shared of cars that were burned, maybe some buildings damaged. But also lots of images from other protests from previous years. Are the images of the same 3 cars and storefronts or many? Trump says the riots are out of control, Newsom says the protests are largely peaceful. A basic claude search suggests the overall level of violence is moderate, and smaller than many recent protests [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/ef220c3d-c6d9-4b4b-bb3f-2d4a2d4c356f https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/ef220c3d-c6d9-4b4b-bb3f-2...) How much of a strain do undocumented immigrants place on the US? You can answer this question from a financial and criminal point of view. From the point of view of crime, Trump and ICE are parading every violent undocumented immigrant they can, but that is not statistics. Do undocumented immigrants account for a significant portion of violent crime in the country? Studies overwhelmingly show that undocumented immigrants are significantly less violent than the general population [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/a92623b8-5c02-4c3a-84ae-fac7e631a151 https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/a92623b8-5c02-4c3a-84ae-f...) From a financial point of view, what resources are undocumented immigrants straining, and is it to a significant degree? The economic picture is much more nuanced. On the cost side, a criticized study (FAIR) reported the cost at about $182bn annually (this is likely an over-estimate). For comparison, undocumented immigrants pay about $100bn in taxes, boost the GDP, and create jobs. Mass deportation is estimated to cost $315Bn. Studies show that the impact on wages is small. The biggest cost factor ($78bn but estimates vary) seems to be K-12 education, and that is mostly born by states. [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/29f10fcf-c8a7-4655-979f-b12d12719549 https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/29f10fcf-c8a7-4655-979f-b...).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jandrese 1y ago
  From what I've seen the burned cars are Waymos, which have their own set of issues and the burning is probably more opportunistic than related to the protest in general. People have been protesting Waymo for years now, obstructing them with cones and other such vandalism. One big thing is that since Waymos are driverless the violence is not being perpetrated against people.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
Been in effect for the last decade or so, sadly. I simply rely on my eyes and the live feed before me. LA isn't on fire and it's not even as bad as your average Lakers game.

by jl6 1y ago

It's clear that many commenters here are operating from completely different factual bases, in terms of who did what, and in what order. Fog of war seems to be in effect.

typeofhuman 1y ago

Correct. Lots of emotions in here too. I wonder if this is an appropriate HN post.

Trasmatta 1y ago
Last I checked, emotions aren't banned from HN
- CSMastermind 1y ago
  No but generally this place tries to encourage curious discussion and this thread seems to have moved squarely away from an attempt to learn or understand something into venting and flame war territory.
  - beyondHelp 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    We're in a post fact era, so ignoring facts seems inevitable in lieu of emotion.

thesuitonym 1y ago

Fog of war? Call it what it is: A misinformation campaign fueled by one of the most successful propaganda networks in history.

laurent_du 1y ago
The funny thing is that it's impossible to know which side you belong to just by reading this one comment.
- thrance 1y ago
  Yes it is. Funding of right-wing media is orders of magnitude more expensive than that of left-wing media. You're just muddying the waters.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  The law is not on Trump's side. That makes this pretty decisive.

aaronbaugher 1y ago

It takes a lot of words to convince people not to believe what they can see for themselves in video.

AStonesThrow 1y ago
[dead]
socalgal2 1y ago
Everyone sees what they want to see. Some see a Mexican invasion as the protesters are carrying flags of Mexico. Not sure why they’d expect that to garner support. Some see violence against police / military Some see poor people being abused by people in power. Some see violence against powerless people Some see actors staging fake protests (see thread for proof that some people see this) Some see political posturing
laurent_du 1y ago
Not really? These people will simply disregard the clips, claiming they are a piece of right-wing propaganda, and that the protest are peaceful, because how could it be otherwise? Of course fighting ICE, feds, and helping criminals (in some case drug dealers and even at least one murderer) is inherently peaceful, just like the BLM riots were.
- thrance 1y ago
  You're one of them. Seen the protester getting trampled by LAPD on their horses? Seen the journalist getting shot gratuitously at point-blank by a cop? AFAIK, no was was hurt by protesters. The cops on the other hand... And let's not even mention the reason behind it all: ICE's torture center, and the multiple raids they carry in the city, to abduct legal immigrants.
- const_cast 1y ago
  Because the BLM protests WERE peaceful. I went to some - man, we just walked around. What happened was that people took clips of events in specific cities at specific times and then tried to extrapolate that out. When, in reality, most protests had no violence. Meanwhile, police were shooting rubber bullets at people while the people were just standing there. Even now, with these "riots", most of the clips I'm seeing are actually from BLM protests years ago. Does anybody know this? Is anybody fact-checking anything? Apparently not. But, for gullible authoritarians that's all it takes. Show them a picture of a car on fire and their mind will hop and skip out of their ear.

beyondHelp 1y ago

No data can change Belief.

distortionfield 1y ago
Not without it being received in earnest. You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

anonymid 1y ago

I agree - there seems to be talking past each other about some very fundamental things: How extensive is the violence of the protests? I saw some images shared of cars that were burned, maybe some buildings damaged. But also lots of images from other protests from previous years. Are the images of the same 3 cars and storefronts or many? Trump says the riots are out of control, Newsom says the protests are largely peaceful. A basic claude search suggests the overall level of violence is moderate, and smaller than many recent protests [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/ef220c3d-c6d9-4b4b-bb3f-2d4a2d4c356f https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/ef220c3d-c6d9-4b4b-bb3f-2...) How much of a strain do undocumented immigrants place on the US? You can answer this question from a financial and criminal point of view. From the point of view of crime, Trump and ICE are parading every violent undocumented immigrant they can, but that is not statistics. Do undocumented immigrants account for a significant portion of violent crime in the country? Studies overwhelmingly show that undocumented immigrants are significantly less violent than the general population [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/a92623b8-5c02-4c3a-84ae-fac7e631a151 https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/a92623b8-5c02-4c3a-84ae-f...) From a financial point of view, what resources are undocumented immigrants straining, and is it to a significant degree? The economic picture is much more nuanced. On the cost side, a criticized study (FAIR) reported the cost at about $182bn annually (this is likely an over-estimate). For comparison, undocumented immigrants pay about $100bn in taxes, boost the GDP, and create jobs. Mass deportation is estimated to cost $315Bn. Studies show that the impact on wages is small. The biggest cost factor ($78bn but estimates vary) seems to be K-12 education, and that is mostly born by states. [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/29f10fcf-c8a7-4655-979f-b12d12719549 https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/29f10fcf-c8a7-4655-979f-b...).

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jandrese 1y ago
From what I've seen the burned cars are Waymos, which have their own set of issues and the burning is probably more opportunistic than related to the protest in general. People have been protesting Waymo for years now, obstructing them with cones and other such vandalism. One big thing is that since Waymos are driverless the violence is not being perpetrated against people.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

Been in effect for the last decade or so, sadly. I simply rely on my eyes and the live feed before me. LA isn't on fire and it's not even as bad as your average Lakers game.