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There's a big cultural gap here. To people who are concerned about porn, it's like asking why we have to stop children from buying handles of vodka. Can't you

There's a big cultural gap here. To people who are concerned about porn, it's like asking why we have to stop children from buying handles of vodka. Can't you just educate them to avoid drinking to excess? No, you can't, they don't have that level of self-control yet. Isn't it unfair to the responsible bakers who just want a really tender pie crust? Yes, it is, but they're going to have to deal with it. Won't a determined kid still be able to get their hands on alcohol? Yes, they will, but it matters that they get it less often and less frequently.

mdp2021 1y ago
Alchool is poison. If you handle it maturely, it remains an intoxicant. Chocolate should be eaten with restraint. If you handle it maturely, it remains something not that comparable to alchool.
- SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
  Right. The question is whether porn is poisonous, and many people (myself included) genuinely feel the answer is yes. Mature, responsible adults can often ration their consumption enough to avoid too many negative effects - as they do with alcohol - but even adults sometimes fail and for children it's much harder.
  - mdp2021 1y ago
    > is poisonous With all due, some may want to advise you to check into that. It could be that it does strange things because of the way you are wired. Please note (about similar corners) what I have already written in the page, "for some it brings a satisfaction and this is an outlet valve that reduces adverse social effects; for some it is a kindler and it will increase adverse social effects". To some it will be the opposite of a poison - it will be constructive. It will depend. This cannot be said of alchool and similar.
    - yhavr 1y ago
      Well, doesn't porn-ish entertaiment fuck up ones reward system? I'm not talking of porn specificly, but about a range of products that turn people into "dopamine rats", constantly pressing a button for more bursts of novelty?
      - mdp2021 1y ago
        > fuck up ones reward system I am personally not aware of those (products that would damage one's reward system), can you name some?
        yhavr 1y ago
        besides porn, things like facebook, tiktok, instagram, reddit... generalising, it's everything that acts as a button "gib me more novelty" that one can press as much and as frequently as they want. surely, not everybody is hooked by these things, and it's definitely possible to use them without harm, but sometimes it requires training and (self-)awareness.
        mdp2021 1y ago
        But every source of pleasure could create addiction, so it is not valid to point to a specific one, and the requirement of self control and gratification delay remains generally fundamental.
        yhavr 1y ago
        Not every source of pleasure is equally addictive by its nature. However, I'm not talking about _addiction_, but messing with the dopaminergic system. It's, I'd say a specific kind of "pleasure" with particular mechanisms to trigger. The problem here is not that a person "is not having control over doing, taking or using something to the point where it could be harmful to them" (https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/addiction-support/addiction-what-is-it/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/addiction-support/addiction-wha...). The problem is that the reward system gets broken. If a person is actually addicted to instagram scrolling, like people are addicted to smoking, it just adds another layer of complexity. As I observing from myself, "checking stuff on my phone" looks like a bad habit rather than an addiction.
  - yhavr 1y ago
    Well, social networks and *-toks are also poisonous for your dopaminergic system. As well as certain classes of games, I guess here's a spectrum. But the best option I see is to educate _everyone_ including kids about mental hygiene. Rather than enforcing unenforceable restrictions.
    - mdp2021 1y ago
      > educate _everyone_ including kids about mental hygiene Hear, hear! The most important skills are underrated in so many societies.
  - jajko 1y ago
    [dead]
ghusto 1y ago
> Can't you just educate them to avoid drinking to excess? No, you can't, they don't have that level of self-control yet This is not only untrue, it's actually the only worthwhile course. I know that bans, rules, and technical solutions are not substitutes for parenting. This is why all the kids of the parents I know who have tried that are doing all the supposedly disallowed things secretly (and circumventing the technical restrictions with ease).
- mdp2021 1y ago
  It's shocking to read opinions that kids would not «have that level of self-control». Children can display self-control... And of course they can. (Just a tiny example: in many countries, we have them study since the age of five, sometimes earlier. They already have a sufficiently working anterior cingulate gyrus at and before that age; they have understanding of tradeoffs at and before that age.) -- Ooooh, hitters that will probably reveal to be snipers. That just confirms the point: if some people think it normal to gesticulate and not formulate - well, that's them, not all... Some children will have a weaker will. Some will have a stronger one! And surely it can be educated.
  - blacksmith_tb 1y ago
    Does that explain why most societies don't permit children to drive cars? Perhaps that's not based on development, but just being too short? I kid, but clearly we don't let children drive, vote, drink alcohol, have sex etc. because of general observations about their limits, including self-control.
    - mdp2021 1y ago
      We don't let children vote because they are not wise enough: we demand a threshold for accrued mental competence is gained. Similarly, cars give them a power similar to that of guns: hence the restriction past the threshold. We don't let children damage themselves because it is plain indefensible. If they want to, they must have passed said formal threshold. These are not matters of self control.
    - 1y ago
SkiFire13 1y ago
> it's like asking why we have to stop children from buying handles of vodka I would argue that part of the answer is because with vodka they can easily harm themselves. However this doesn't hold for porn.
- mdp2021 1y ago
  > with vodka they can easily harm themselves And others. Which is relevant, because other resources (e.g. those relevant here) can reduce or abate sexual misconduct, for many, or maybe boost it for some - depending on the profile. Some will be satisfied (and stay at that), some other will be kindled.
Barrin92 1y ago
>Yes, they will, but it matters that they get it less often and less frequently. but they won't. Alcohol restrictions are at least somewhat enforceable (although as a sidenote I also find them silly) but you can open a new tab, literally type "porn" into any search engine, and you'll get fifty thousand results. And all of those sites are hosted in the middle of nowhere and do zero content moderation compared to Pornhub, so chances are on those sites adolescents will run into some genuinely abhorrent content. You've made it no less difficult, but much less safe. It's so utterly meaningless even compared to other internet bans, it makes more sense to assume they just banned something so that people would stop talking about it. It's as if someone was on a crusade against video games, banned literally one video game

mdp2021 1y ago

Alchool is poison. If you handle it maturely, it remains an intoxicant. Chocolate should be eaten with restraint. If you handle it maturely, it remains something not that comparable to alchool.

SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
Right. The question is whether porn is poisonous, and many people (myself included) genuinely feel the answer is yes. Mature, responsible adults can often ration their consumption enough to avoid too many negative effects - as they do with alcohol - but even adults sometimes fail and for children it's much harder.
- mdp2021 1y ago
  > is poisonous With all due, some may want to advise you to check into that. It could be that it does strange things because of the way you are wired. Please note (about similar corners) what I have already written in the page, "for some it brings a satisfaction and this is an outlet valve that reduces adverse social effects; for some it is a kindler and it will increase adverse social effects". To some it will be the opposite of a poison - it will be constructive. It will depend. This cannot be said of alchool and similar.
  - yhavr 1y ago
    Well, doesn't porn-ish entertaiment fuck up ones reward system? I'm not talking of porn specificly, but about a range of products that turn people into "dopamine rats", constantly pressing a button for more bursts of novelty?
    - mdp2021 1y ago
      > fuck up ones reward system I am personally not aware of those (products that would damage one's reward system), can you name some?
      - yhavr 1y ago
        besides porn, things like facebook, tiktok, instagram, reddit... generalising, it's everything that acts as a button "gib me more novelty" that one can press as much and as frequently as they want. surely, not everybody is hooked by these things, and it's definitely possible to use them without harm, but sometimes it requires training and (self-)awareness.
        mdp2021 1y ago
        But every source of pleasure could create addiction, so it is not valid to point to a specific one, and the requirement of self control and gratification delay remains generally fundamental.
        yhavr 1y ago
        Not every source of pleasure is equally addictive by its nature. However, I'm not talking about _addiction_, but messing with the dopaminergic system. It's, I'd say a specific kind of "pleasure" with particular mechanisms to trigger. The problem here is not that a person "is not having control over doing, taking or using something to the point where it could be harmful to them" (https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/addiction-support/addiction-what-is-it/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/addiction-support/addiction-wha...). The problem is that the reward system gets broken. If a person is actually addicted to instagram scrolling, like people are addicted to smoking, it just adds another layer of complexity. As I observing from myself, "checking stuff on my phone" looks like a bad habit rather than an addiction.
- yhavr 1y ago
  Well, social networks and *-toks are also poisonous for your dopaminergic system. As well as certain classes of games, I guess here's a spectrum. But the best option I see is to educate _everyone_ including kids about mental hygiene. Rather than enforcing unenforceable restrictions.
  - mdp2021 1y ago
    > educate _everyone_ including kids about mental hygiene Hear, hear! The most important skills are underrated in so many societies.
- jajko 1y ago
  [dead]

ghusto 1y ago

> Can't you just educate them to avoid drinking to excess? No, you can't, they don't have that level of self-control yet This is not only untrue, it's actually the only worthwhile course. I know that bans, rules, and technical solutions are not substitutes for parenting. This is why all the kids of the parents I know who have tried that are doing all the supposedly disallowed things secretly (and circumventing the technical restrictions with ease).

mdp2021 1y ago
It's shocking to read opinions that kids would not «have that level of self-control». Children can display self-control... And of course they can. (Just a tiny example: in many countries, we have them study since the age of five, sometimes earlier. They already have a sufficiently working anterior cingulate gyrus at and before that age; they have understanding of tradeoffs at and before that age.) -- Ooooh, hitters that will probably reveal to be snipers. That just confirms the point: if some people think it normal to gesticulate and not formulate - well, that's them, not all... Some children will have a weaker will. Some will have a stronger one! And surely it can be educated.
- blacksmith_tb 1y ago
  Does that explain why most societies don't permit children to drive cars? Perhaps that's not based on development, but just being too short? I kid, but clearly we don't let children drive, vote, drink alcohol, have sex etc. because of general observations about their limits, including self-control.
  - mdp2021 1y ago
    We don't let children vote because they are not wise enough: we demand a threshold for accrued mental competence is gained. Similarly, cars give them a power similar to that of guns: hence the restriction past the threshold. We don't let children damage themselves because it is plain indefensible. If they want to, they must have passed said formal threshold. These are not matters of self control.
  - 1y ago

SkiFire13 1y ago

> it's like asking why we have to stop children from buying handles of vodka I would argue that part of the answer is because with vodka they can easily harm themselves. However this doesn't hold for porn.

mdp2021 1y ago
> with vodka they can easily harm themselves And others. Which is relevant, because other resources (e.g. those relevant here) can reduce or abate sexual misconduct, for many, or maybe boost it for some - depending on the profile. Some will be satisfied (and stay at that), some other will be kindled.

Barrin92 1y ago

>Yes, they will, but it matters that they get it less often and less frequently. but they won't. Alcohol restrictions are at least somewhat enforceable (although as a sidenote I also find them silly) but you can open a new tab, literally type "porn" into any search engine, and you'll get fifty thousand results. And all of those sites are hosted in the middle of nowhere and do zero content moderation compared to Pornhub, so chances are on those sites adolescents will run into some genuinely abhorrent content. You've made it no less difficult, but much less safe. It's so utterly meaningless even compared to other internet bans, it makes more sense to assume they just banned something so that people would stop talking about it. It's as if someone was on a crusade against video games, banned literally one video game