4 ms·

Not all companies are equal. At the same time that Tesla was making actual electric cars, Nikola was rolling fake "electric trucks" downhill. Grifters exist,

by klipt 1y ago

Not all companies are equal. At the same time that Tesla was making actual electric cars, Nikola was rolling fake "electric trucks" downhill. Grifters exist, but not everyone is a grifter.

Supermancho 1y ago
Capitalism rewards dishonesty. Every company is a grifter to some degree. This is more widespread in technical service companies.
- sib 1y ago
  It's a wonderful thing that no other economic systems reward dishonesty. /s
  - Supermancho 1y ago
    >>> Grifters exist, but not everyone is a grifter. >> Capitalism rewards dishonesty. > It's a wonderful thing that no other economic systems reward dishonesty. This is a whataboutism. To rephrase, "all economic systems reward dishonesty." - That's the point. Saying not every market participant is a grifter is a form of denial.
- deadeye 1y ago
  To an extent. Just not to the extent that dishonesty is rewarded in socialism and communism. At least Capitalism in a free society is largely self correcting.
- burnte 1y ago
  Capitalis does no such thing, the market available to the company does. Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation. That's literally the point of regulation, too. Dozens of other countries show you can have a vibrant economy that isn't beholden to a few billionaires.
  - jampekka 1y ago
    > Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation. Capitalism makes capitalism hard to appropriately regulate. Concentration of capital means concentration of power.
    - burnte 1y ago
      > Capitalism makes capitalism hard to appropriately regulate. Concentration of capital means concentration of power. And yet many countries have a better handle on it than the USA. I just never, ever buy into the whole "it's to hard for America to do a thing that other countries do". I think the US is capable of anything we put our collective will towards, we just need leaders who want to lead the whole nation rather than personal profiteers.
      - jampekka 1y ago
        The general trend has been towards deregulation, and capital concentration, almost everywhere for decades. US is just ahead. The talk in EU is now that we have to ease regulation because we can't compete with countries with laxer regulation. The same race to the bottom has happened in e.g. taxes and labor protections ever since capital controls were lifted. > I think the US is capable of anything we put our collective will towards, we just need leaders who want to lead the whole nation rather than personal profiteers. I sure hope so but I can't really see it happening. The whole US political system seems to be FUBAR, largely because the concentrations of capital bought it.
  - otherme123 1y ago
    Capturing the regulators is a great way to make yourself immune to market pressure.
  - surgical_fire 1y ago
    > Capitalis does no such thing, the market available to the company does. Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation Too bad that capital owners deeply hate regulation and do everything they can to deregulate everything. Hell, it doesn't even need to be capital owners. Plenty of bootlickers here on HN that always cry about any kind of government regulation.
- ahazred8ta 1y ago
  In eastern europe (COMECON) during the cold war days, the factories were famous for cranking out products that claimed to do something but did not deliver on the promise. Did they do that because they were run by capitalists? Google China melamine contaminated milk.
  - AngryData 1y ago
    I find it hard to believe any claim that they weren't capitalists. Almost nothing in the USSR was operated or managed by worker collectives. Nor in China. A handful of people managed the capital of these businesses and profited off them, and the people who own, operate, and profit off of capital investments are capitalists, even if they slap a PR sign up claiming they aren't.
    - earnestinger 1y ago
      Technically you are wrong. The best kind of wrong.
    - ahazred8ta 1y ago
      That's why I specified the eastern european countries where many of the factories actually were controlled by the unions. They themselves acknowledged that they were fudging their numbers on a regular basis to get undeserved bonus money for workers.
  - throw10920 1y ago
    Thank you for pointing out that this has nothing to do with capitalism. Humans are dishonest, and implying that that doesn't manifest in other economic systems is willfully and maliciously false, a statement only used by propagandists.
  - immibis 1y ago
    We are talking about capitalism because we live in capitalism and are observing problems with capitalism. We are not currently living in the USSR.
mjmsmith 1y ago
Not sure Tesla is the poster child for non-grifters in the context of AI.
- andrei_says_ 1y ago
  Or “auto pilot”
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Auto pilot is pretty good at driving within the same lane. Just like a plane pilot needs to do the more complicated stuff like take off and landing, one can expect the same with autopilot (just changing lanes and stopping at lights or stop signs or turning). Full self driving is the mislabeled one. Should be “90% self driving”.
    - seanp2k2 1y ago
      Not when that lane is the HOV lane and traffic is going (speed limit + 15mph). You can always spot the white Tesla on 101 doing the speed limit in the HOV lane during rush hour with a mile of cars behind them and a mile of nothing in front.
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago
        The driver can set the auto pilot speed to whatever number they want. If they are going the speed limit, it’s because the driver chose to cruise at that max speed. Full self driving, however, may be limited to the speed limit. I don’t know, since I don’t use it.
    - pixl97 1y ago
      > plane pilot needs to do the more complicated stuff like take off and landing Auto landing test 3 days ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijEPsSdqg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijEPsSdqg8
      - 1y ago
jampekka 1y ago
Coast-to-coast self-driving Teslas were promised by 2017. And have been promised next year almost every year since. Tesla can make electric vehicles but the company valuagion is based on grift.

by klipt 1y ago

Not all companies are equal. At the same time that Tesla was making actual electric cars, Nikola was rolling fake "electric trucks" downhill. Grifters exist, but not everyone is a grifter.

Supermancho 1y ago

Capitalism rewards dishonesty. Every company is a grifter to some degree. This is more widespread in technical service companies.

sib 1y ago
It's a wonderful thing that no other economic systems reward dishonesty. /s
- Supermancho 1y ago
  >>> Grifters exist, but not everyone is a grifter. >> Capitalism rewards dishonesty. > It's a wonderful thing that no other economic systems reward dishonesty. This is a whataboutism. To rephrase, "all economic systems reward dishonesty." - That's the point. Saying not every market participant is a grifter is a form of denial.
deadeye 1y ago
To an extent. Just not to the extent that dishonesty is rewarded in socialism and communism. At least Capitalism in a free society is largely self correcting.
burnte 1y ago
Capitalis does no such thing, the market available to the company does. Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation. That's literally the point of regulation, too. Dozens of other countries show you can have a vibrant economy that isn't beholden to a few billionaires.
- jampekka 1y ago
  > Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation. Capitalism makes capitalism hard to appropriately regulate. Concentration of capital means concentration of power.
  - burnte 1y ago
    > Capitalism makes capitalism hard to appropriately regulate. Concentration of capital means concentration of power. And yet many countries have a better handle on it than the USA. I just never, ever buy into the whole "it's to hard for America to do a thing that other countries do". I think the US is capable of anything we put our collective will towards, we just need leaders who want to lead the whole nation rather than personal profiteers.
    - jampekka 1y ago
      The general trend has been towards deregulation, and capital concentration, almost everywhere for decades. US is just ahead. The talk in EU is now that we have to ease regulation because we can't compete with countries with laxer regulation. The same race to the bottom has happened in e.g. taxes and labor protections ever since capital controls were lifted. > I think the US is capable of anything we put our collective will towards, we just need leaders who want to lead the whole nation rather than personal profiteers. I sure hope so but I can't really see it happening. The whole US political system seems to be FUBAR, largely because the concentrations of capital bought it.
- otherme123 1y ago
  Capturing the regulators is a great way to make yourself immune to market pressure.
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  > Capitalis does no such thing, the market available to the company does. Every problem people blame on "capitalism" is solvable with appropriate regulation Too bad that capital owners deeply hate regulation and do everything they can to deregulate everything. Hell, it doesn't even need to be capital owners. Plenty of bootlickers here on HN that always cry about any kind of government regulation.
ahazred8ta 1y ago
In eastern europe (COMECON) during the cold war days, the factories were famous for cranking out products that claimed to do something but did not deliver on the promise. Did they do that because they were run by capitalists? Google China melamine contaminated milk.
- AngryData 1y ago
  I find it hard to believe any claim that they weren't capitalists. Almost nothing in the USSR was operated or managed by worker collectives. Nor in China. A handful of people managed the capital of these businesses and profited off them, and the people who own, operate, and profit off of capital investments are capitalists, even if they slap a PR sign up claiming they aren't.
  - earnestinger 1y ago
    Technically you are wrong. The best kind of wrong.
  - ahazred8ta 1y ago
    That's why I specified the eastern european countries where many of the factories actually were controlled by the unions. They themselves acknowledged that they were fudging their numbers on a regular basis to get undeserved bonus money for workers.
- throw10920 1y ago
  Thank you for pointing out that this has nothing to do with capitalism. Humans are dishonest, and implying that that doesn't manifest in other economic systems is willfully and maliciously false, a statement only used by propagandists.
- immibis 1y ago
  We are talking about capitalism because we live in capitalism and are observing problems with capitalism. We are not currently living in the USSR.

mjmsmith 1y ago

Not sure Tesla is the poster child for non-grifters in the context of AI.

andrei_says_ 1y ago
Or “auto pilot”
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  Auto pilot is pretty good at driving within the same lane. Just like a plane pilot needs to do the more complicated stuff like take off and landing, one can expect the same with autopilot (just changing lanes and stopping at lights or stop signs or turning). Full self driving is the mislabeled one. Should be “90% self driving”.
  - seanp2k2 1y ago
    Not when that lane is the HOV lane and traffic is going (speed limit + 15mph). You can always spot the white Tesla on 101 doing the speed limit in the HOV lane during rush hour with a mile of cars behind them and a mile of nothing in front.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      The driver can set the auto pilot speed to whatever number they want. If they are going the speed limit, it’s because the driver chose to cruise at that max speed. Full self driving, however, may be limited to the speed limit. I don’t know, since I don’t use it.
  - pixl97 1y ago
    > plane pilot needs to do the more complicated stuff like take off and landing Auto landing test 3 days ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijEPsSdqg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijEPsSdqg8
    - 1y ago

jampekka 1y ago

Coast-to-coast self-driving Teslas were promised by 2017. And have been promised next year almost every year since. Tesla can make electric vehicles but the company valuagion is based on grift.