5 ms·

Yea I partly agree I guess. I am a cyclist in NYC and there are definitely "e-bikes" that present more like motorcycles and people drive them over the Queensbor

by alecst 1y ago

Yea I partly agree I guess. I am a cyclist in NYC and there are definitely "e-bikes" that present more like motorcycles and people drive them over the Queensboro Bridge bike path which is like 3 feet wide. It's crazy. I'm surprised I don't see more streaks of blood on the concrete there to be honest. So I would like to see better e-bike laws that make it illegal to have a machine that's too heavy and/or fast, and to issue court summonses to people operating those machines in bike lanes. That seems fair. It's a clear hazard, it's a selfish use of resources, and if everyone did it they'd just close the bike path altogether because it'd become unusable. Having said that, that's not what the city is doing. They're fixated on cyclists running red lights and stop signs, not distinguishing between different kinds of bikes. Bikes, and e-bikes, are safer than cars for everyone around them. We want to encourage people to bike more and drive less because they're so much safer. (Remember a bike isn't like a car -- if a cyclist hits a pedestrian, they're gonna get hurt too!) For this reason, many states allow bikes to treat red lights as stop signs and stop signs as yield signs. So NYC's sudden shift in policy, to me, feels backwards. It sucks because if safety was really the major concern the mayor could have just built more and safer bike lines -- which was what he promised to do, made a plan to do, and then just didn't.

lxgr 1y ago
> it's a selfish use of resources Probably worth noting at this point that the ultimate beneficiaries are people ordering food on various delivery services. In my experience, these overpowered bikes are almost exclusively used by delivery drivers. I rarely order online (too much trash, too many hostile UX patterns of sneaking in fees disguised as "taxes" etc.), but when I do, I'd really prefer the delivery person would not risk their and others' lives running red lights all the way.
- john-h-k 1y ago
  I wonder if Uber/Deliveroo/etc could implement a penalty for doing a delivery - when you are marked as an e-bike deliverer - "too fast". Obviously they have no incentive to do it, but it seems the easiest single action to slow them down
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    It's worse than that. I'm pretty sure that a rider can't compete without engaging in these behaviors.
john-h-k 1y ago
> They're fixated on cyclists running red lights and stop signs, not distinguishing between different kinds of bikes Absolutely agree this is silly and cities should be encouraging cycling. > We want to encourage people to bike less and drive more assuming you meant to flip this? An e-bike that can even do 20mph comfortably is much closer to a moped than a bicycle, partly due to weight, and partly due to "ease of speed". Obviously a person can easily cycle 20mph, but it just isn't the kind of thing you do on in a crowded area. Very different when it is just a throttle. So grouping them in with bikes, rather than mopeds or similar, is just extremely silly
- alecst 1y ago
  Yea I switched my words around, thanks.
- AdamN 1y ago
  Getting a pedelec bike to 20mph takes real effort unless cheats are involved - it's not really a moped. However there needs to be some honest classification that's global to handle the new spectrum from traditional bike to full on motorcycle and everything in between.
  - close04 1y ago
    Depending on the country the motor cutoff is 32km/h, which means that speed is more accessible to your average rider than on a classic bike. And the elephant in the room is how compliant many e-bikes really are. Some even advertised how easy it is to remove (raise?) the limit. Where I live I find cyclists to be the most reckless participants in traffic, way more than drivers and pedestrians. Cyclists never have to take even the most basic course even just in school to learn legislation or general rules. They always act like they own the road whether on the sidewalk among pedestrians, or on the street among cars. E-bikes just made this worse because everyone can cycle above their natural capabilities now. But it's also clear that the "blast radius" of a cyclist is usually very limited compared to the damage a car can cause even with banal actions like opening a door at the wrong time. So I understand why their behavior is tolerated compared to when drivers to the same.
lolinder 1y ago
> Bikes, and e-bikes, are safer than cars for everyone around them. We want to encourage people to bike more and drive less because they're so much safer. All else being equal, yes. But NYC drivers are exceptionally skilled relative to the rest of the country. They're nuts in a lot of ways, but they're also far more respectful of pedestrians, far more aware of their surroundings, far more willing to drive slowly, and far more happy to stop for pedestrians even if they technically have the right of way. NYC e-bike riders (especially the Citi bikes) are the opposite. They're far less likely to stop, far more likely to be going way faster than is safe, and far more likely to blow through stop signs entirely. There's a well-documented phenomenon in safety that the "safer" choice in the abstract can actually end up being more dangerous because it feels safer, which leads to riskier behavior. I fear this is what is happening in NYC: incentivizing people to ride bikes doesn't get you 10x as many of the good, respectful, careful bikers you had 10 years ago. It gets you a whole bunch of reckless amateurs who buy the hype that bikes are safer and bike like maniacs. We may well find that that's worse for pedestrian safety than the well-known and well-regulated dangers of cars.
- alecst 1y ago
  Look, in my neighborhood, in a single weekend, something like 5 people died due to car crashes. One of them was a kid who was killed by a driver who was texting. Some drivers were drinking. Last year, a driver drove into the lobby of a CityMD a few blocks from me and destroyed the entire corner of the building and possibly killed people, I don't know. Just yesterday a car was upside down in the middle of the road on Skillman Blvd. Even having said that, I kind of agree that it's true that drivers in Manhattan tend to be pretty aware, considerate, and mindful compared to other cities, all the traffic lights notwithstanding. But they have to be -- even just a little bit of distraction and they will kill someone. I can't say the same for the Citi bikers as reckless as they may be. They're far more likely to hurt themselves than someone else, and I'd rather have the reckless amateurs be on bikes than driving cars.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
> not distinguishing between different kinds of bikes. The appropriate forums are filled with people outraged on the "ban on e-bikes" that NY State & City are leading the charge for. They were the first to ban non-UL certified bikes, and have proposed and/or enacted several other regulations against over-wattage bikes. I'm not sure how effective the laws and enforcement are, but NYC is definitely doing more than nothing to get rid of the heaviest/fastest bikes.
meagher 1y ago
Aside: Queensboro Bridge bike path is much wider now. https://gothamist.com/news/new-queensboro-bridge-walkway-opens-separating-cyclists-and-pedestrians-for-first-time https://gothamist.com/news/new-queensboro-bridge-walkway-ope...
fallinghawks 1y ago
I've driven around Queens a little and bicyclists, even e-bikes, seem to be both rarer and more law abiding than the delivery people on scooters. I haven't driven much, but every close shave I've had there was with a scooter. They're lawless - they ride on sidewalks, go the wrong way on one-way streets, pass cars on the right, pass you then immediately grind to a halt because they need to make a left turn but apparently needed to get ahead of you first. It would be a relief to see them get some consequences and hopefully start to be safer.
lnjoe 1y ago
> So I would like to see better e-bike laws that make it illegal to have a machine that's too heavy and/or fast Fwiw, shouldn’t we consider the weight of the bike (e-bike or not e-bike) + the weight of the rider? On my 75lb e-bike and weighing 160lb, am I more dangerous than a 220lb dude on a 15lb Schwinn? Speed’s an issue also, but I’ve had my road bike up to 55 mph (downhill) and never exceed 24 mph on my e-bike. So, I guess I’m saying to be equitable, set speed and combined weight limits on all things with 2 wheels.
illiac786 1y ago
> Bikes, and e-bikes, are safer than cars for everyone around them. I would tend to agree but it needs qualifying. If e-bikes run reds but cars do not, then this might not be true anymore.

by alecst 1y ago

lxgr 1y ago

> it's a selfish use of resources Probably worth noting at this point that the ultimate beneficiaries are people ordering food on various delivery services. In my experience, these overpowered bikes are almost exclusively used by delivery drivers. I rarely order online (too much trash, too many hostile UX patterns of sneaking in fees disguised as "taxes" etc.), but when I do, I'd really prefer the delivery person would not risk their and others' lives running red lights all the way.

john-h-k 1y ago
I wonder if Uber/Deliveroo/etc could implement a penalty for doing a delivery - when you are marked as an e-bike deliverer - "too fast". Obviously they have no incentive to do it, but it seems the easiest single action to slow them down
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  It's worse than that. I'm pretty sure that a rider can't compete without engaging in these behaviors.

john-h-k 1y ago

> They're fixated on cyclists running red lights and stop signs, not distinguishing between different kinds of bikes Absolutely agree this is silly and cities should be encouraging cycling. > We want to encourage people to bike less and drive more assuming you meant to flip this? An e-bike that can even do 20mph comfortably is much closer to a moped than a bicycle, partly due to weight, and partly due to "ease of speed". Obviously a person can easily cycle 20mph, but it just isn't the kind of thing you do on in a crowded area. Very different when it is just a throttle. So grouping them in with bikes, rather than mopeds or similar, is just extremely silly

alecst 1y ago
Yea I switched my words around, thanks.
AdamN 1y ago
Getting a pedelec bike to 20mph takes real effort unless cheats are involved - it's not really a moped. However there needs to be some honest classification that's global to handle the new spectrum from traditional bike to full on motorcycle and everything in between.
- close04 1y ago
  Depending on the country the motor cutoff is 32km/h, which means that speed is more accessible to your average rider than on a classic bike. And the elephant in the room is how compliant many e-bikes really are. Some even advertised how easy it is to remove (raise?) the limit. Where I live I find cyclists to be the most reckless participants in traffic, way more than drivers and pedestrians. Cyclists never have to take even the most basic course even just in school to learn legislation or general rules. They always act like they own the road whether on the sidewalk among pedestrians, or on the street among cars. E-bikes just made this worse because everyone can cycle above their natural capabilities now. But it's also clear that the "blast radius" of a cyclist is usually very limited compared to the damage a car can cause even with banal actions like opening a door at the wrong time. So I understand why their behavior is tolerated compared to when drivers to the same.

lolinder 1y ago

> Bikes, and e-bikes, are safer than cars for everyone around them. We want to encourage people to bike more and drive less because they're so much safer. All else being equal, yes. But NYC drivers are exceptionally skilled relative to the rest of the country. They're nuts in a lot of ways, but they're also far more respectful of pedestrians, far more aware of their surroundings, far more willing to drive slowly, and far more happy to stop for pedestrians even if they technically have the right of way. NYC e-bike riders (especially the Citi bikes) are the opposite. They're far less likely to stop, far more likely to be going way faster than is safe, and far more likely to blow through stop signs entirely. There's a well-documented phenomenon in safety that the "safer" choice in the abstract can actually end up being more dangerous because it feels safer, which leads to riskier behavior. I fear this is what is happening in NYC: incentivizing people to ride bikes doesn't get you 10x as many of the good, respectful, careful bikers you had 10 years ago. It gets you a whole bunch of reckless amateurs who buy the hype that bikes are safer and bike like maniacs. We may well find that that's worse for pedestrian safety than the well-known and well-regulated dangers of cars.

alecst 1y ago
Look, in my neighborhood, in a single weekend, something like 5 people died due to car crashes. One of them was a kid who was killed by a driver who was texting. Some drivers were drinking. Last year, a driver drove into the lobby of a CityMD a few blocks from me and destroyed the entire corner of the building and possibly killed people, I don't know. Just yesterday a car was upside down in the middle of the road on Skillman Blvd. Even having said that, I kind of agree that it's true that drivers in Manhattan tend to be pretty aware, considerate, and mindful compared to other cities, all the traffic lights notwithstanding. But they have to be -- even just a little bit of distraction and they will kill someone. I can't say the same for the Citi bikers as reckless as they may be. They're far more likely to hurt themselves than someone else, and I'd rather have the reckless amateurs be on bikes than driving cars.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

> not distinguishing between different kinds of bikes. The appropriate forums are filled with people outraged on the "ban on e-bikes" that NY State & City are leading the charge for. They were the first to ban non-UL certified bikes, and have proposed and/or enacted several other regulations against over-wattage bikes. I'm not sure how effective the laws and enforcement are, but NYC is definitely doing more than nothing to get rid of the heaviest/fastest bikes.

meagher 1y ago

Aside: Queensboro Bridge bike path is much wider now. https://gothamist.com/news/new-queensboro-bridge-walkway-opens-separating-cyclists-and-pedestrians-for-first-time https://gothamist.com/news/new-queensboro-bridge-walkway-ope...

fallinghawks 1y ago

I've driven around Queens a little and bicyclists, even e-bikes, seem to be both rarer and more law abiding than the delivery people on scooters. I haven't driven much, but every close shave I've had there was with a scooter. They're lawless - they ride on sidewalks, go the wrong way on one-way streets, pass cars on the right, pass you then immediately grind to a halt because they need to make a left turn but apparently needed to get ahead of you first. It would be a relief to see them get some consequences and hopefully start to be safer.

lnjoe 1y ago

> So I would like to see better e-bike laws that make it illegal to have a machine that's too heavy and/or fast Fwiw, shouldn’t we consider the weight of the bike (e-bike or not e-bike) + the weight of the rider? On my 75lb e-bike and weighing 160lb, am I more dangerous than a 220lb dude on a 15lb Schwinn? Speed’s an issue also, but I’ve had my road bike up to 55 mph (downhill) and never exceed 24 mph on my e-bike. So, I guess I’m saying to be equitable, set speed and combined weight limits on all things with 2 wheels.

illiac786 1y ago

> Bikes, and e-bikes, are safer than cars for everyone around them. I would tend to agree but it needs qualifying. If e-bikes run reds but cars do not, then this might not be true anymore.