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Keynes lived in a time when the working class was organized and exerting its power over its destiny. We live in a time that the working class is unbelievably b

Keynes lived in a time when the working class was organized and exerting its power over its destiny. We live in a time that the working class is unbelievably brainwashed and manipulated.

eastbound 1y ago
It is very possible that foreign powers use AI to generate social media content in mass for propaganda. If anything, the internet up to 2015 seemed open for discussion and swaying by real people’s opinion (and mockery of the elite classes), while manipulation and manufactured consent became the norm after 2017.
- rusk 1y ago
  This is a pre-/post- Snowden & Schrems, which challenged the primary economic model of the internet as a surveillance machine. All the free money dried up and the happy clapping Barney the Dinosaur Internet was no more!
- kergonath 1y ago
  > It is very possible that foreign powers use AI to generate social media content in mass for propaganda. No need for AI. Troll farms are well documented and were in action before transformers could string two sentences together.
- amarcheschi 1y ago
  Italian party Lega (in the government coalition) has been using deep fakes for some time now. It's not only ridiculous, it's absolutely offensive to the people they mock - von Der leyen, other Italian politicians... -
  - genewitch 1y ago
    Queen Ursula deserves to be mocked.
    - karmakurtisaani 1y ago
      Even from an angle that destabilizes the EU and so directly benefits Russia?
      - eastbound 1y ago
        Yes. She’s not an elected representative. And she’s been utterly ineffective at threatening Russia with her soft stance (Yes, in war, strong words are weak actions). Her place is back in Hunger Games, starving everybody for the greater good of the elite class.
      - genewitch 1y ago
        My answer to this would be, i think: "well, if my mocking Ursula Von Der Leyen destabilizes the EU then maybe the EU shouldn't exist." right? pact of steel? anyone?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
kergonath 1y ago
He was extrapolating, as well. Going from children in the mines to the welfare state in a generation was quite something. Unfortunately, progress slowed down significantly for many reasons but I don’t think we should really blame Keynes for this. > We live in a time that the working class is unbelievably brainwashed and manipulated. I think it has always been that way. Looking through history, there are many examples of turkeys voting for Christmas and propaganda is an old invention. I don’t think there is anything special right now. And to be fair to the working class, it’s not hard to see how they could feel abandoned. It’s also broader than the working class. The middle class is getting squeezed as well. The only winners are the oligarchs.
- ireadmevs 1y ago
  There’s no middle class. You either have to work for a living or you don’t.
  - d4mi3n 1y ago
    While you’re not wrong in what differentiates those with wealth to those without, I think ignores a lot of nuance. Does one have savings? Can they afford to spend time with their children outside of working day to day? Do they have the ability to take reasonable risks without chancing financial ruin in pursuit of better opportunities? These are things we typically attribute to someone in the middle class. I worry that boiling down these discussions to “you work and they don’t” misses a lot of opportunity for tangible improvement to quality of life for large number of people.
    - hobs 1y ago
      It doesn't - its a battle cry for the working classes (ie anyone who actually works) to realize they are being exploited by those that simply do not. If you have an actual job and an income constrained by your work output, you could be middle class, but you could also recognize that you are getting absolutely ruined by the billionaire class (no matter what your level of working wealth)
hoseyor 1y ago
He also lived in a time when the intense importance and function of a moral and cultural framework for society was taken for granted. He would have never imagined the level of social and moral degeneration of today. I will not go into specifics because the authoritarians still disagree and think everything is fine with degenerative debauchery and try to abuse anyone even just pointing to failing systems, but it all does seem like civilization ending developments regardless of whether it leads to the rise of another civilization, e.g., the Asian Era, i.e., China, India, Russia, Japan, et al. Ironically, I don’t see the US surviving this transitional phase, especially considering it essentially does not even really exist anymore at its core. Would any of the founders of America approve of any of America today? The forefathers of India, China, Russia, and maybe Japan would clearly approve of their countries and cultures. America is a hollowed out husk with a facade of red, white, and blue pomp and circumstance that is even fading, where America means both everything and nothing as a manipulative slogan to enrich the few, a massive private equity raid on America. When you think of the Asian countries, you also think of distinct and unique cultures that all have their advantages and disadvantages, the true differences that make them true diversity that makes humanity so wonderful. In America you have none of that. You have a decimated culture that is jumbled with all kinds of muddled and polluted cultures from all over the place, all equally confused and bewildered about what they are and why they feel so lost only chasing dollars and shiny objects to further enrich the ever smaller group of con artist psychopathic narcissists at the top, a kind of worst form of aristocracy that humanity has yet ever produced, lacking any kind of sense of noblesse oblige, which does not even extend to simply not betraying your own people.
- komali2 1y ago
  That a capitalist society might achieve a 15 hour workweek if it maintained a "non debauched culture" and "culture homogeneity" is an extraordinary claim I've never seen a scrap of evidence for. Can you support this extraordinary claim? That there's any cultural "degenerative debauchery" is an extraordinary claim. Can you back up this claim with evidence? "Decimated," "muddled," and "polluted" imply you have an objective analysis framework for culture. Typically people who study culture avoid moralizing like this because one very quickly ends up looking very foolish. What do you know that the anthropologists and sociologists don't, to where you use these terms so freely? If I seem aggressive, it's because I'm quite tired of vague handwaving around "degeneracy" and identity politics. Too often these conversations are completely presumptive.
1776smithadam 1y ago
Keynes didn't anticipate social media
pif 1y ago
> Keynes lived in a time when the working class ... Keynes lived in a time when the working class could not buy cheap from China... and complain that everybody else was doing the same!

Keynes lived in a time when the working class was organized and exerting its power over its destiny. We live in a time that the working class is unbelievably brainwashed and manipulated.

eastbound 1y ago

It is very possible that foreign powers use AI to generate social media content in mass for propaganda. If anything, the internet up to 2015 seemed open for discussion and swaying by real people’s opinion (and mockery of the elite classes), while manipulation and manufactured consent became the norm after 2017.

rusk 1y ago
This is a pre-/post- Snowden & Schrems, which challenged the primary economic model of the internet as a surveillance machine. All the free money dried up and the happy clapping Barney the Dinosaur Internet was no more!
kergonath 1y ago
> It is very possible that foreign powers use AI to generate social media content in mass for propaganda. No need for AI. Troll farms are well documented and were in action before transformers could string two sentences together.
amarcheschi 1y ago
Italian party Lega (in the government coalition) has been using deep fakes for some time now. It's not only ridiculous, it's absolutely offensive to the people they mock - von Der leyen, other Italian politicians... -
- genewitch 1y ago
  Queen Ursula deserves to be mocked.
  - karmakurtisaani 1y ago
    Even from an angle that destabilizes the EU and so directly benefits Russia?
    - eastbound 1y ago
      Yes. She’s not an elected representative. And she’s been utterly ineffective at threatening Russia with her soft stance (Yes, in war, strong words are weak actions). Her place is back in Hunger Games, starving everybody for the greater good of the elite class.
    - genewitch 1y ago
      My answer to this would be, i think: "well, if my mocking Ursula Von Der Leyen destabilizes the EU then maybe the EU shouldn't exist." right? pact of steel? anyone?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

kergonath 1y ago

He was extrapolating, as well. Going from children in the mines to the welfare state in a generation was quite something. Unfortunately, progress slowed down significantly for many reasons but I don’t think we should really blame Keynes for this. > We live in a time that the working class is unbelievably brainwashed and manipulated. I think it has always been that way. Looking through history, there are many examples of turkeys voting for Christmas and propaganda is an old invention. I don’t think there is anything special right now. And to be fair to the working class, it’s not hard to see how they could feel abandoned. It’s also broader than the working class. The middle class is getting squeezed as well. The only winners are the oligarchs.

ireadmevs 1y ago
There’s no middle class. You either have to work for a living or you don’t.
- d4mi3n 1y ago
  While you’re not wrong in what differentiates those with wealth to those without, I think ignores a lot of nuance. Does one have savings? Can they afford to spend time with their children outside of working day to day? Do they have the ability to take reasonable risks without chancing financial ruin in pursuit of better opportunities? These are things we typically attribute to someone in the middle class. I worry that boiling down these discussions to “you work and they don’t” misses a lot of opportunity for tangible improvement to quality of life for large number of people.
  - hobs 1y ago
    It doesn't - its a battle cry for the working classes (ie anyone who actually works) to realize they are being exploited by those that simply do not. If you have an actual job and an income constrained by your work output, you could be middle class, but you could also recognize that you are getting absolutely ruined by the billionaire class (no matter what your level of working wealth)

hoseyor 1y ago

He also lived in a time when the intense importance and function of a moral and cultural framework for society was taken for granted. He would have never imagined the level of social and moral degeneration of today. I will not go into specifics because the authoritarians still disagree and think everything is fine with degenerative debauchery and try to abuse anyone even just pointing to failing systems, but it all does seem like civilization ending developments regardless of whether it leads to the rise of another civilization, e.g., the Asian Era, i.e., China, India, Russia, Japan, et al. Ironically, I don’t see the US surviving this transitional phase, especially considering it essentially does not even really exist anymore at its core. Would any of the founders of America approve of any of America today? The forefathers of India, China, Russia, and maybe Japan would clearly approve of their countries and cultures. America is a hollowed out husk with a facade of red, white, and blue pomp and circumstance that is even fading, where America means both everything and nothing as a manipulative slogan to enrich the few, a massive private equity raid on America. When you think of the Asian countries, you also think of distinct and unique cultures that all have their advantages and disadvantages, the true differences that make them true diversity that makes humanity so wonderful. In America you have none of that. You have a decimated culture that is jumbled with all kinds of muddled and polluted cultures from all over the place, all equally confused and bewildered about what they are and why they feel so lost only chasing dollars and shiny objects to further enrich the ever smaller group of con artist psychopathic narcissists at the top, a kind of worst form of aristocracy that humanity has yet ever produced, lacking any kind of sense of noblesse oblige, which does not even extend to simply not betraying your own people.

komali2 1y ago
That a capitalist society might achieve a 15 hour workweek if it maintained a "non debauched culture" and "culture homogeneity" is an extraordinary claim I've never seen a scrap of evidence for. Can you support this extraordinary claim? That there's any cultural "degenerative debauchery" is an extraordinary claim. Can you back up this claim with evidence? "Decimated," "muddled," and "polluted" imply you have an objective analysis framework for culture. Typically people who study culture avoid moralizing like this because one very quickly ends up looking very foolish. What do you know that the anthropologists and sociologists don't, to where you use these terms so freely? If I seem aggressive, it's because I'm quite tired of vague handwaving around "degeneracy" and identity politics. Too often these conversations are completely presumptive.

1776smithadam 1y ago

Keynes didn't anticipate social media

pif 1y ago

> Keynes lived in a time when the working class ... Keynes lived in a time when the working class could not buy cheap from China... and complain that everybody else was doing the same!