4 ms·

I suspect that these "AI layoffs" are really "interest rate" layoffs in disguise. Software was truly truly insane for a bit there. Straight out of college, no-

by mlsu 1y ago

I suspect that these "AI layoffs" are really "interest rate" layoffs in disguise. Software was truly truly insane for a bit there. Straight out of college, no-name CS degree, making $120, $150k (back when $120k really meant $120k)? The music had to stop on that one.

catigula 1y ago
That really only happened in HCOL areas.
- xp84 1y ago
  Sure, but there was a massive concentration of such people in those areas.
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  HCOL wasn't the driver though. It is abundance of investment and desire to hire. If the titans could collude to pay engineer half as much, they would. They tried.
spamizbad 1y ago
Yeah, my spiciest take is that Jr. Dev salaries really started getting silly during the 2nd half of the 2010s. It was ultimately supply (too little) and demand (too much) pushing them upward, but it was a huge signal we were in a bubble.
- LPisGood 1y ago
  As someone who entered the workforce just after this, I feel like I missed the peak. A ton if those people got boatloads of money, great stock options, and many years of experience that they can continue to leverage for excellent positions.
  - idkwhattocallme 1y ago
    Don't worry, there is always another bubble on the horizon
  - trade2play 1y ago
    I joined in 2018. Honestly it was 10 years too late. The big innovations of the 2010 era were maturing. I’ve spent my career maintaining and tweaking those, which does next to zero for your career development. It’s boring and bloated. On the bright side I’ve made a lot of money and have no issues getting jobs so far.
    - Aeolun 1y ago
      I think my career started in 2008? That was a great time to start for the purpose of learning, but a terrible one for compensation. Basically nobody knew what they were doing, and software wasn’t the ticket to free money that it became later yet.
      - dustingetz 1y ago
        data engineering was free money for nothing at all circa 2014, they got paid about 1.5x a fullstack application developer for .5x the work because frontend/ui work was considered soft, unworthy
    - lurking_swe 1y ago
      there’s always interesting work out there. It just doesn’t always align with ethical values, good salary, or work life balance. There’s always a trade off. For example think of space x, Waymo, parts of US national defense, and the sciences (cancer research, climate science - analyzing satellite images, etc). They are doing novel work that’s certainly not boring! I think you’re probably referring to excitement and cutting edge in consumer products? I agree that has been stale for a while.
nyarlathotep_ 1y ago
The irony now is that 120k is basically minimum wage for major metros (and in most cases that excludes home ownership). Of course, that growth in wages in this sector was a contributing factor to home/rental price increases as the "market" could bear higher prices.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  CoL in London or Dublin is comparable to much of the US, but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range. The issue is salary expectations in the US are much higher than those in much of Western Europe despite having similar CoL. And $120k for a new grad is only a tech specific thing. Even new grad management consultants earn $80-100k base, and lower for other non-software roles and industries.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range But in UK an Ireland they get free healthcare, paid vacation, sick leave and labor protections, no?
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      The labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role), and the free healthcare portion gets paid out of employer's pockets via taxes so it comes out the same as a $70-80k base (and associated taxes) would in much of the US. There's a reason you don't see new grad hiring in France (where they actually try to enforce work hours), and they have a subsequently high youth unemployment rate. Though even these new grad roles are at risk to move to CEE, where their administrations are giving massive tax holidays on the tune of $10-20k per employee if you invest enough. And the skills gap I mentioned about CS in the US exists in Weatern Europe as well. CEE, Israel, and India are the only large tech hubs that still treat CS as an engineering disciple instead of as only a form of applied math.
      - 0xpgm 1y ago

by mlsu 1y ago

catigula 1y ago

That really only happened in HCOL areas.

xp84 1y ago
Sure, but there was a massive concentration of such people in those areas.
bravesoul2 1y ago
HCOL wasn't the driver though. It is abundance of investment and desire to hire. If the titans could collude to pay engineer half as much, they would. They tried.

spamizbad 1y ago

Yeah, my spiciest take is that Jr. Dev salaries really started getting silly during the 2nd half of the 2010s. It was ultimately supply (too little) and demand (too much) pushing them upward, but it was a huge signal we were in a bubble.

LPisGood 1y ago
As someone who entered the workforce just after this, I feel like I missed the peak. A ton if those people got boatloads of money, great stock options, and many years of experience that they can continue to leverage for excellent positions.
- idkwhattocallme 1y ago
  Don't worry, there is always another bubble on the horizon
- trade2play 1y ago
  I joined in 2018. Honestly it was 10 years too late. The big innovations of the 2010 era were maturing. I’ve spent my career maintaining and tweaking those, which does next to zero for your career development. It’s boring and bloated. On the bright side I’ve made a lot of money and have no issues getting jobs so far.
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    I think my career started in 2008? That was a great time to start for the purpose of learning, but a terrible one for compensation. Basically nobody knew what they were doing, and software wasn’t the ticket to free money that it became later yet.
    - dustingetz 1y ago
      data engineering was free money for nothing at all circa 2014, they got paid about 1.5x a fullstack application developer for .5x the work because frontend/ui work was considered soft, unworthy
  - lurking_swe 1y ago
    there’s always interesting work out there. It just doesn’t always align with ethical values, good salary, or work life balance. There’s always a trade off. For example think of space x, Waymo, parts of US national defense, and the sciences (cancer research, climate science - analyzing satellite images, etc). They are doing novel work that’s certainly not boring! I think you’re probably referring to excitement and cutting edge in consumer products? I agree that has been stale for a while.

nyarlathotep_ 1y ago

The irony now is that 120k is basically minimum wage for major metros (and in most cases that excludes home ownership). Of course, that growth in wages in this sector was a contributing factor to home/rental price increases as the "market" could bear higher prices.

alephnerd 1y ago
CoL in London or Dublin is comparable to much of the US, but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range. The issue is salary expectations in the US are much higher than those in much of Western Europe despite having similar CoL. And $120k for a new grad is only a tech specific thing. Even new grad management consultants earn $80-100k base, and lower for other non-software roles and industries.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range But in UK an Ireland they get free healthcare, paid vacation, sick leave and labor protections, no?
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    The labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role), and the free healthcare portion gets paid out of employer's pockets via taxes so it comes out the same as a $70-80k base (and associated taxes) would in much of the US. There's a reason you don't see new grad hiring in France (where they actually try to enforce work hours), and they have a subsequently high youth unemployment rate. Though even these new grad roles are at risk to move to CEE, where their administrations are giving massive tax holidays on the tune of $10-20k per employee if you invest enough. And the skills gap I mentioned about CS in the US exists in Weatern Europe as well. CEE, Israel, and India are the only large tech hubs that still treat CS as an engineering disciple instead of as only a form of applied math.
    - 0xpgm 1y ago