4 ms·

I don't really find this relevant in the US because airline pricing is already the ultimate brutal form of pricing. Not only are they allowed to bill you whatev

I don't really find this relevant in the US because airline pricing is already the ultimate brutal form of pricing. Not only are they allowed to bill you whatever they want, they are never under any actual obligation to put you on the plane.

hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago
This seems surprising to me. I was under the impression that airlines are pretty low profit margin industries, pulling in only around 3-4% in a decent year, and that of that the airline tickets themselves are the lowest margin items percentage wise, with other things like baggage fees being much more load bearing.
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  Depending on which party you're talking about (airport, airline, etc), a no-bag economy ticket is often below cost, which is made up in volume and extras.
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  This is correct, the single passenger 'economy' ticket is usually a loss leader. You can make the argument that airlines are companies that sell in flight beverages and also happen to fly a passenger airplane. The actual profit comes from an unusual sources, like deals with credit card issues for a "rewards" program that gives you frequent flyer miles
- dlisboa 1y ago
  You are correct. As much as we like to bash airlines and their decisions, and liking low fares and quality service myself, it's objectively one of the worst businesses imaginable. Extremely high risk, low margin. Every year about a dozen airlines go bankrupt, get merged or bailed out. A small increase in the price of oil is a major risk for most of them. Most of the more profitable markets have high competition not only by other airlines but also other forms of transportation. Very few airlines are swimming in cash and even those are only a couple bad years away from bankrupcy.
  - authorfly 1y ago
    You'd like Milton Friedman and his take on pilot Unions too.
    - dlisboa 1y ago
      Knowing Friedman's other takes, probably not.
  - chgs 1y ago
    As the saying goes. The best way to be a millionaire running an airline is to start as a billionaire.
- tshaddox 1y ago
  The fact that their brutally anti-consumer business is also not even that profitable for them is really no consolation to the consumer.
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    Yes it is, because it's the reason why air travel is extremely cheap relative to historical norms.
    - hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago
      That's actually exactly the consolation I look for as a consumer, thanks.
- marcosdumay 1y ago
  They are a low profit business, and that kind of liberty is stuff that pushes their profits even lower. They also always fail to differentiate from one another and are always competing on only price and how much fees they can keep hidden. Personally, I do argue that it's worth it having tickets 10% more expensive and forcing the companies to always allocate all passengers, treat people humanely and etc. It's even worth it the 25% increase to make them let people carry luggage and avoid all the troubles that come with the optionality. But most governments seem to disagree.
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    > It's even worth it the 25% increase to make them let people carry luggage You are asking for people who fly without checked luggage (as I usually do) to subsidize you.
    - marcosdumay 1y ago
      Sure, you would subside people flying with luggage. It also reduces the time planes stay on the ground, stops the fighting between passengers for the always full luggage bins, clears the seats in case of emergency, and eliminates the largest hidden fee companies manage to put on their prices. Anyway, the fact that you just assumed I personally fly with luggage is weird.
      - account42 1y ago
        A piece of luggage is on the same other of magnitude as the variance in human weight so either way there is plenty of "subsidizing" going on.
- os2warpman 1y ago
  Airfare is the cheapest it has been in the entire history of commercial aviation except for immediately after 9/11 and the initial weeks of the global covid lockdown-- but both you and I know those periods don't count. Most people are ok with terrible service because they save money. Doesn't stop them from complaining, though. And yes, "cheapest" includes taxes and all fees. You can fly from New York to Paris non-stop for $150 if you are patient and flexible. (Please please please call me a liar.) If you are not patient $500 is more typical. Twenty years ago was a $800 ticket. Thirty years ago that was a $1000 ticket.
  - authorfly 1y ago
    What's your patient/flexible technique? Let me know. And you are not a liar - but your claim isn't true at all in Europe - see increased per-flight legislated fees and the loss of budget airlines. Price of flights between 2 destinations has increased by 25-40% in the last 5 years in most of Europe. Thanks to efforts like increasing the per-flight fees "because of high inflation" (these fee increases are still going up several years later): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/why-travel-is-more-expensive-we-asked-the-experts https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/why-travel... and loss of airlines like Flybe. You can still get the madly cheap hop flights, but they are often pricing in income from our flights (or accepting even negative returns by pricing above the per-flight fees) because the planes need to be where you are going to fly a profitable flight later. So the old status quo where genuinely cheap flights could be booked on a 7 day basis (e.g. cheap thursday-thursday flights) has been replaced by convoluted patterns to get the cheap flights (you usually need to leave on Monday, return on Saturday (if your source airport has lower demand than the destination) or vice versa. I suggest based on flights in the US becoming cheaper, that this is due to government intervention. I get saving the environment and all that. But let me pay more taxes monthly, don't charge the airline £15 minimum making a bunch of flights unviable. Don't make booking a holiday or conference flight so unpleasant and annoying. I always have to tradeoff wasting a day or two with paying 50-150 euros extra. It's not the worlds biggest problem, but making that decision is a regular additional dilemma I didn't want in my life. I wish for the days when you could get just normal timetabled flights at good costs if the month (e.g. February) was unpopular for travel. Now those months really aren't cheaper.
os2warpman 1y ago
>Not only are they allowed to bill you whatever they want, they are never under any actual obligation to put you on the plane. With exceptions, once you have paid for a ticket all commercial passenger airlines are obligated to transport you under their contract of carriage. All airlines must do this, I even looked up the contract of carriage for the shittiest airline I could think of and Frontier has this to say: >Involuntary -- If insufficient passengers volunteer, passengers who cannot be accommodated on the flight will be denied boarding and Frontier will provide transportation on a Frontier flight to the same destination. After a passenger’s boarding pass is collected or scanned and accepted by the gate agent, and the passenger has boarded, a passenger may be removed from a flight only for safety or security reasons or in accordance with Section 3 of this Contract of Carriage. They must also compensate you. If being denied boarding delays you for 1-2 hours you get 2x the cost of the fare up to $1550 and 2+ hours 4x up to $2150. And they still have to put you on a plane: >A passenger denied boarding, voluntarily or involuntarily, pursuant to this section, will be transported on Frontier’s next available flight on which space is available and at no additional charge. https://www.flyfrontier.com/legal/contract-of-carriage https://www.flyfrontier.com/legal/contract-of-carriage Contracts of carriage are pretty much boilerplate but all of this is to say: if you pay, show up on time, and aren't denied boarding for a safety reason airlines are obligated to transport you to your destination. (in the US)
- shawabawa3 1y ago
  "next available flight" could mean waiting 2 days in a random airport, hardly reassuring
  - sidewndr46 1y ago
    One of my co-workers had a flight delayed so long that the alternative flight they offered would have him stay on the plane at the destination airport and begin his home journey immediately.
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  "denied boarding" seems pretty key here. What about when the airline decides you aren't on the flight in the first place?
greenavocado 1y ago
> they are never under any actual obligation to put you on the plane. It's true that airlines wield pricing power but their Contract of Carriage, buried under more fine print than a payday loan agreement, does impose obligations. Rule 21 of United's Contract explicitly allows refusal of transport, but Rule 4 confirms that a ticket with a confirmed reservation constitutes a binding agreement to provide service, absent violations by the passenger (like failing to check in). Rule 25 further mandates denied boarding compensation when overselling occurs, because even in brutal airline economics, a confirmed reservation isn't merely a suggestion, it's a contractual commitment, however creatively airlines may interpret "commitment." Of course, involuntary bumping, force majeure, and the ever-convenient "operational decisions" let airlines off the hook. But to claim they have no obligations is not true.

hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago

This seems surprising to me. I was under the impression that airlines are pretty low profit margin industries, pulling in only around 3-4% in a decent year, and that of that the airline tickets themselves are the lowest margin items percentage wise, with other things like baggage fees being much more load bearing.

AlotOfReading 1y ago
Depending on which party you're talking about (airport, airline, etc), a no-bag economy ticket is often below cost, which is made up in volume and extras.
sidewndr46 1y ago
This is correct, the single passenger 'economy' ticket is usually a loss leader. You can make the argument that airlines are companies that sell in flight beverages and also happen to fly a passenger airplane. The actual profit comes from an unusual sources, like deals with credit card issues for a "rewards" program that gives you frequent flyer miles
dlisboa 1y ago
You are correct. As much as we like to bash airlines and their decisions, and liking low fares and quality service myself, it's objectively one of the worst businesses imaginable. Extremely high risk, low margin. Every year about a dozen airlines go bankrupt, get merged or bailed out. A small increase in the price of oil is a major risk for most of them. Most of the more profitable markets have high competition not only by other airlines but also other forms of transportation. Very few airlines are swimming in cash and even those are only a couple bad years away from bankrupcy.
- authorfly 1y ago
  You'd like Milton Friedman and his take on pilot Unions too.
  - dlisboa 1y ago
    Knowing Friedman's other takes, probably not.
- chgs 1y ago
  As the saying goes. The best way to be a millionaire running an airline is to start as a billionaire.
tshaddox 1y ago
The fact that their brutally anti-consumer business is also not even that profitable for them is really no consolation to the consumer.
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  Yes it is, because it's the reason why air travel is extremely cheap relative to historical norms.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago
    That's actually exactly the consolation I look for as a consumer, thanks.
marcosdumay 1y ago
They are a low profit business, and that kind of liberty is stuff that pushes their profits even lower. They also always fail to differentiate from one another and are always competing on only price and how much fees they can keep hidden. Personally, I do argue that it's worth it having tickets 10% more expensive and forcing the companies to always allocate all passengers, treat people humanely and etc. It's even worth it the 25% increase to make them let people carry luggage and avoid all the troubles that come with the optionality. But most governments seem to disagree.
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  > It's even worth it the 25% increase to make them let people carry luggage You are asking for people who fly without checked luggage (as I usually do) to subsidize you.
  - marcosdumay 1y ago
    Sure, you would subside people flying with luggage. It also reduces the time planes stay on the ground, stops the fighting between passengers for the always full luggage bins, clears the seats in case of emergency, and eliminates the largest hidden fee companies manage to put on their prices. Anyway, the fact that you just assumed I personally fly with luggage is weird.
    - account42 1y ago
      A piece of luggage is on the same other of magnitude as the variance in human weight so either way there is plenty of "subsidizing" going on.
os2warpman 1y ago
Airfare is the cheapest it has been in the entire history of commercial aviation except for immediately after 9/11 and the initial weeks of the global covid lockdown-- but both you and I know those periods don't count. Most people are ok with terrible service because they save money. Doesn't stop them from complaining, though. And yes, "cheapest" includes taxes and all fees. You can fly from New York to Paris non-stop for $150 if you are patient and flexible. (Please please please call me a liar.) If you are not patient $500 is more typical. Twenty years ago was a $800 ticket. Thirty years ago that was a $1000 ticket.
- authorfly 1y ago
  What's your patient/flexible technique? Let me know. And you are not a liar - but your claim isn't true at all in Europe - see increased per-flight legislated fees and the loss of budget airlines. Price of flights between 2 destinations has increased by 25-40% in the last 5 years in most of Europe. Thanks to efforts like increasing the per-flight fees "because of high inflation" (these fee increases are still going up several years later): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/why-travel-is-more-expensive-we-asked-the-experts https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/why-travel... and loss of airlines like Flybe. You can still get the madly cheap hop flights, but they are often pricing in income from our flights (or accepting even negative returns by pricing above the per-flight fees) because the planes need to be where you are going to fly a profitable flight later. So the old status quo where genuinely cheap flights could be booked on a 7 day basis (e.g. cheap thursday-thursday flights) has been replaced by convoluted patterns to get the cheap flights (you usually need to leave on Monday, return on Saturday (if your source airport has lower demand than the destination) or vice versa. I suggest based on flights in the US becoming cheaper, that this is due to government intervention. I get saving the environment and all that. But let me pay more taxes monthly, don't charge the airline £15 minimum making a bunch of flights unviable. Don't make booking a holiday or conference flight so unpleasant and annoying. I always have to tradeoff wasting a day or two with paying 50-150 euros extra. It's not the worlds biggest problem, but making that decision is a regular additional dilemma I didn't want in my life. I wish for the days when you could get just normal timetabled flights at good costs if the month (e.g. February) was unpopular for travel. Now those months really aren't cheaper.

os2warpman 1y ago

>Not only are they allowed to bill you whatever they want, they are never under any actual obligation to put you on the plane. With exceptions, once you have paid for a ticket all commercial passenger airlines are obligated to transport you under their contract of carriage. All airlines must do this, I even looked up the contract of carriage for the shittiest airline I could think of and Frontier has this to say: >Involuntary -- If insufficient passengers volunteer, passengers who cannot be accommodated on the flight will be denied boarding and Frontier will provide transportation on a Frontier flight to the same destination. After a passenger’s boarding pass is collected or scanned and accepted by the gate agent, and the passenger has boarded, a passenger may be removed from a flight only for safety or security reasons or in accordance with Section 3 of this Contract of Carriage. They must also compensate you. If being denied boarding delays you for 1-2 hours you get 2x the cost of the fare up to $1550 and 2+ hours 4x up to $2150. And they still have to put you on a plane: >A passenger denied boarding, voluntarily or involuntarily, pursuant to this section, will be transported on Frontier’s next available flight on which space is available and at no additional charge. https://www.flyfrontier.com/legal/contract-of-carriage https://www.flyfrontier.com/legal/contract-of-carriage Contracts of carriage are pretty much boilerplate but all of this is to say: if you pay, show up on time, and aren't denied boarding for a safety reason airlines are obligated to transport you to your destination. (in the US)

shawabawa3 1y ago
"next available flight" could mean waiting 2 days in a random airport, hardly reassuring
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  One of my co-workers had a flight delayed so long that the alternative flight they offered would have him stay on the plane at the destination airport and begin his home journey immediately.
sidewndr46 1y ago
"denied boarding" seems pretty key here. What about when the airline decides you aren't on the flight in the first place?

greenavocado 1y ago

> they are never under any actual obligation to put you on the plane. It's true that airlines wield pricing power but their Contract of Carriage, buried under more fine print than a payday loan agreement, does impose obligations. Rule 21 of United's Contract explicitly allows refusal of transport, but Rule 4 confirms that a ticket with a confirmed reservation constitutes a binding agreement to provide service, absent violations by the passenger (like failing to check in). Rule 25 further mandates denied boarding compensation when overselling occurs, because even in brutal airline economics, a confirmed reservation isn't merely a suggestion, it's a contractual commitment, however creatively airlines may interpret "commitment." Of course, involuntary bumping, force majeure, and the ever-convenient "operational decisions" let airlines off the hook. But to claim they have no obligations is not true.