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Remembering Alasdair MacIntyre
- hrisen 1y ago[flagged]
- MikeTaylor 1y ago[flagged]
- CoastalCoder 1y ago(checks notes on Christian theology) Yup. (Actually, I don't know how promptly they reckon fallen Christians will be revived.)
- oceansky 1y agoActually, most christian denominations believe you go to heaven or hell(or purgatory for catholics) immediately after you die. But some churches, like Jehovah's witnesses and adventists believe in the "soul sleep", so the soul sleeps until the second coming of Christ, then you are sent to either heaven or hell.
- cvoss 1y ago> most christian denominations believe you go to heaven or hell ... immediately > some churches ... believe ... the soul sleeps until the second coming of Christ, then you are sent to either heaven or hell. It's nuanced and a lot of Christians don't catch the nuance, but the Bible speaks both of an immediate transfer of the soul to one place or the other upon death and also of an eventual resurrection (of all souls into bodies) at the second coming, followed by final judgement.
- eszed 1y agoThere's nuance to that, as well. Official Adventist theology is that even after the Judgment there will not be an "ever-burning Hell", with eternal torture and suffering, but rather that the unrighteous (even including Satan and his evil angels) will be burned - body and soul - into non-being in an instant. Of course, folk belief and desire for retribution being what they are, many SdA folks will tell you that that instant will "feel like eternity". There's also a weird bit about how after Jesus returns and takes the righteous away with him Satan will rule the world for, like, a thousand years. That's expected to be pretty awful for everyone left behind - so, you know, don't you kids go swimming on Saturday - but it's intended to demonstrate, once and for all, that Jesus' way is the best way. (I admire the fair-minded impulse behind that narrative, like: gotta give Satan a shot!) After that, though (because obviously life with Satan in charge will be awful), God'll annihilate all them, and (if I recall correctly) all of the righteous, along with God and Jesus and all the angels, will move back to live on Earth. Source: raised SdA. (No idea what JWs have to say about any of this. I ask them very nicely not to bother me again, and they've always - the odd pamphlet through the letterbox apart - done so.)
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- sisoes 1y agoI am not Roman Catholic anymore, but I read After Virtue shortly after I graduated from college and it fundamentally changed my moral worldview for the better. I owe him a great debt. Requiescat in pace.
- dharmatech 1y agoWhat would you consider yourself now, spiritually, if not Catholic?
- radiorental 1y agoTo paraphrase Ricky Jervias (and probably Richard Dawkins before him)... He just believes in one fewer gods now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SGOGH5-SCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SGOGH5-SCA
- sisoes 1y agoEastern Orthodox Christian. After Virtue is not a specifically Roman Catholic work, even though MacIntyre started slowly agree with its Aristotelian ethical system, and I still recommend the book to anyone willing to put in the work to understand it.
- dharmatech 1y agoThank you brother
- wyclif 1y ago"Aristotle, not Nietzche."
- gundmc 1y agoI read After Virtue while in college and suffering something of an existential crisis. That book really challenged me to shift my thinking on purpose and meaning. It holds great value to me on a personal level. Thank you, Professor MacIntyre.
- gjm11 1y agoNow I want to know whose work McIntyre described as "the philosophical equivalent of Vogue".
- neel_k 1y agoRichard Rorty, whose humanism and love of democracy MacIntyre despised. Over the course of his career, MacIntyre went from an extreme left Marxist to an extreme right Thomist, and the only constant was his hatred of liberalism. He really couldn't stand the idea that people could believe in rationalism, feel the moral force of individual rights, or make purpose and meaning for themselves, all without appealing to an authoritarian source of control.
- throw0101c 1y ago> […] all without appealing to an authoritarian source of control. Well that was partly what After Virtue was about: arguing it wasn't possible to have an objective moral system without the supernatural. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue And he's not the only one to hold this view (many atheists do as well): * https://global.oup.com/academic/product/atheist-overreach-9780190880927 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/atheist-overreach-97... You're left with either Nietzsche's arbitrary will, or virtues (à la Aristotle). For the latter, MacIntyre attempted to develop a system of morality (? ethics?) based on human biology: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/655623.Dependent_Rational_Animals https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/655623.Dependent_Rationa... Once can certainly tell oneself that there is a certain purpose or meaning to one's life, but if you're a materialist, then (the argument goes (AIUI)) it's not true. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem The arrangement of atoms is arbitrary and without meaning, and to call some arrangement(s) "good" or "bad" or better / worse is a value judgement that is just as arbitrary and meaningless.
- keybored 1y agoLink dump at the ready. > And he's not the only one to hold this view (many atheists do as well): The author Christian Smith is apparently a Roman Catholic. What do you mean?
- belter 1y ago[flagged]
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- Forgeties79 1y agoThis is a very common stance in the Roman Catholic Church. The concept of “faith and reason” as two sides of the same coin both leading to truth is a pretty major teaching in the church these days.
- NilMostChill 1y agoPerhaps you're conflating faith with religion. Faith being "confidence, trust or belief in a thing , person or concept, sometimes in the absence of proof" Not to be confused with "blind faith" which is the above but with wilful ignorance or dismissal of proof that contradicts the aspect of the faith. Also not to be confused with "religion" which is the social construct or organisation around a central faith. You can have faith without religion, but you can't generally have a religion without faith.
- NilMostChill 1y agoTo be clear, i'm not religious nor do i have much in the way of faith. I just don't think faith and philosophy are mutually exclusive. My impression of organised religion is unfavourable so I'm almost certainly biased in my perspective of religion being the reason faith gets such a bad reputation.
- belter 1y agoI am not conflating faith with religion, but the statement clearly refers to his religion...MacIntyre appeals and arguments smuggle theology in through the back door. Presents basic commitments as if they were simply the unavoidable presuppositions of moral reasoning, yet in practice the basic commitments he privileges are those of Roman-Catholic Thomism. By treating them as axiomatic rather than doctrinal...transforms a Catholic moral vision into what looks like a neutral starting point. Disguises an apologetic project as pure philosophy. “At the foundation of moral thinking lie beliefs in statements the truth of which no further reason can be given.” ― Alasdair C. MacIntyre, After Virtue
- cess11 1y agoI disagree with MacIntyre about a lot, both in theology and political philosophy, but I respect him for having tried to engage with both Nietzsche and the french philosophers heavily influenced by him as well as sticking by his egalitarian ethics even after the successful revolt of Reagan and the yuppies. 'When asked in 1996 what values he retained from his Marxist days, MacIntyre answered, “I would still like to see every rich person hanged from the nearest lamp post.”'
- abcd_f 1y ago> every rich person hanged from the nearest lamp post As the joke from the 00s went - in other news, Cisco has become today the first company to close its doors because all its employees cashed out their stock options and quit. That is, hanging rich persons from the lamp posts is probably not the maxim that would resonate well on the HN :)
- Boogie_Man 1y agoI certainly see a through line between Chesterton and After Virtue. As a certified Heretics Enjoyer I'm sold.
- toomuchtodo 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- digiconfucius 1y agoAfter Virtue was one of my favorite books, and it helped me get started learning about the history of ideas. I knew he was getting older, but I'm saddened to see him pass. In college, I had hoped that I could meet him one day. Rest in peace.
- AquinasCoder 1y agoI recommend some of his other works: Whose Justice, Whose Rationality and Dependent Rational Animals. It’s rewarding to seem him attempt a reconciliation between some modern epistemologies and Augustinian Thomism. I’m not sure he really pulls it off but his stature as a thinker in moral philosophy is undeniable.
- coolKid721 1y agoAlso his very late work, ethics in the conflicts of modernity is often looked over for his older ones but is probably my favorite.
- wyclif 1y agoAfter Virtue is his most important work, I think, but the above titles are the logical follow-ups to read next.
- cm2012 1y ago“After Virtue” annoys me because it basically argues that morality only makes sense within cultural traditions, as if we’re all just trapped in our local narratives with no access to universal truths. MacIntyre romanticizes ancient communities and traditions, but ignores the fact that plenty of those upheld horrifying practices—like slavery, misogyny, or human sacrifice—and calling those ‘virtuous’ just because they fit a narrative feels like moral relativism in disguise. I get that modern ethics can feel fragmented, but the answer isn’t to retreat into tribalism or pretend reason can’t give us shared values across cultures. Just because some people are bad at finding moral clarity doesn’t mean it’s impossible or meaningless.
- varunneal 1y agoHow can reason give us shared values across cultures? Why do you suppose your moral clarity was generated from your brain and not your gut?
- cm2012 1y agoThat's what the field of philosophy is about. I think, for instance, utilitarianism makes a lot more sense than "follow whatever your birth community historically does."
- intuitionist 1y agoI dunno. Utilitarianism sounds nice on the surface—how can you be against the greatest good for the greatest number?—but it’s pretty under-specified (hedonic or preference? act or rule? do you discount future beings’ utils, and at what rate?) and if you take any particular specification seriously you get moral claims that are wildly counterintuitive, like “insect suffering is orders of magnitude more important than heart disease in humans” or “there may be quadrillions of sentient beings in the far future, and making their lives 1% better is a better use of resources than eradicating malaria now” or “it’s morally justified to steal billions of dollars of other people’s money to give to pandemic prevention and AI safety.” And maybe these are correct claims, but they definitely don’t align with many people’s moral intuitions, and it’d be a tall task to convince those people.
- qhiliq 1y agoThe MacIntyre piece I read first and got the most from is "Hegel on Faces and Skulls". It explains Hegel's critique of physiognomy and phrenology, which is about what we can and cannot learn about someone by looking at them. Said another way, the difference between expressions and physical traits. I think about it a lot whenever I see claims made about facial recognition systems, and in my day job working on motion capture.
- lukeasrodgers 1y agoYes, this is still the most persuasive and concise argument I’ve encountered against a whole host of forms of biological reductionism, including those based on modern fmri techniques.
- cafard 1y agoFor the Chesterton buffs here, I will mention an essay of GKC's, which you can find at http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/alarms_and_discursions.html#13 http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/alarms_and_discursions.html#.... It concludes "I do not know whose heads are criminal, but I think I know whose are imbecile."
- antithesizer 1y ago"Being asked to die for the nation state is like being asked to die for the telephone company." -Alasdair MacIntyre RIP
- boxerab 1y agoAs an article in The Nation noted, ‘When asked in 1996 what values he retained from his Marxist days, MacIntyre answered, “I would still like to see every rich person hanged from the nearest lamp post.”’
- cafard 1y agoThanks to the poster: I remembered that a local bookstore might still have a copy of Three Rival Versions of Moral Enquiry, and have ordered it.