4 ms·

As a preface, I think lots of people will not like this take. A lot of people are going to have to come to the realization that has already been mentioned befo

As a preface, I think lots of people will not like this take. A lot of people are going to have to come to the realization that has already been mentioned before but many find it hard to grasp. Your boss, stakeholders, and especially non-technical people literally give 0 fucks about "quality code" as long as it does what they want it to do. They do not care about tests insofar as if it works it works. Many have no clue about nor do they care about whether something just refetches the world in certain scenarios. And AI whether we like it or not, whether it repeats the same shit and isnt DRY, doesn't follow patterns, reinvents the wheel, etc - is already fairly good at that. This is exactly why all your stakeholders and executives are pushing you to use it. they've been fed that it just gets shit done and pumps out code like nothing else. I really think a lot of the reason some people say it doesn't give them as much productivity as they would like is due largely to a desire to write "clean" code based on years and years of our own training, and due to having to be able to pass code review done by your peers. If these obstacles were entirely removed and we went full bandaid off I do think AI even in its current state is fairly capable of replacing plenty of roles. But it does require a competent person to steer to not end up in a complete mess. If you throw away the guardrails a little bit and not obsess about how nice code looks anymore, it absolutely will move things along faster than you could before.

edoceo 1y ago
This is true. But the cost after is high. Creating code, by hand or AI is easier than maintaining or modifying the system. And this is where a problem (still) appears - except now the AI-assiated authors have even less comprehension of the system.
boxed 1y ago
Clean code is nice. Working code is a requirement. You missed the point. AI slop doesn't just fail on point 1. It fails on point 2.
- Jcampuzano2 1y ago
  I work in an enterprise company where we just recently got access to use cursor, before that copilot. We have literally stood up entire services built practically entirely with AI that are deployed right now and consumers are using. AI does work with competent people behind the wheel. People can't keep hiding behind saying that it always churns out code that doesn't work. We are way past those days. If you don't you will end up losing your job. Theres no way around it. The problem is we may end up losing our jobs either way.
  - pron 1y ago
    When I've seen examples of such cases, my impression was that they could be improved by taking the AI out of the picture and using some "low code" solution.
  - MeetingsBrowser 1y ago
    > entire services built practically entirely with AI What kind of services and how complex are they? I've been using Cursor for a year and struggle to get the agent to make competent changes in a medium sized code base. Even something isolated like writing a test for a specific function usually take multiple rounds of iteration and manual cleanup at the end.
    - Jcampuzano2 1y ago
      Most services that are written today (Not just talking about my company/experience, I'm talking broadly) are not complex. Many are basically a copy paste of the same types of things that have been built thousands of times before. Now with that knowledge and knowing how LLM's should work it should come as no surprise that AI will be able to spin up new ones quite competently and quickly. Regarding tests: that is also something I find and many of my peers find that LLM's excel at. Given X inputs and Y outputs an llm will spit out a whole suite of tests for every case of your functions without issue except in complicated scenarios. End to end tests it may not do quite as well at since usually it requires a lot of externalities/setup, but it can help with generating some of the setup and given examples it can build from there. Of course this depends on how much you value those tests, since some don't even think tests are that useful nowadays.
bravetraveler 1y ago
I suspect experienced folks are well aware of the subjectivity of quality. How? Change control. Quality control exists until The Business deems otherwise. The reasons vary: vulnerability, promotion, whatever. Usually not my place to say. Personally, my 'product' isn't code. Even the 'code' isn't code. For every 8 hours of meetings I do, I crank out maybe 20 lines of YAML (Ansible). Then, another 4 hours of meetings handing that out/explaining the same basics for Political Points. The problem(s) relating to speed or job security have remarkably little to do with code; generated or not. The people I work with are functionally co-dependent because they don't use LLMs or... manuals. All this talk about "left behind"... to survive a bear, one doesn't have to be the fastest. Just not the slowest.
nalekberov 1y ago
> I really think a lot of the reason some people say it doesn't give them as much productivity as they would like is due largely to a desire to write "clean" code based on years and years of our own training, and due to having to be able to pass code review done by your peers. Machine doesn't get mad when an app takes forever to start or keeps constantly crashing, but we humans do. Writing "clean" code has the least importance when it comes to machine generated code.
- Jcampuzano2 1y ago
  People keep reading off this nonsense that AI generated code is always bad or slow. This is so far from the truth that I really think anybody who still says this has not actually used it for anything real in at least a couple years. Yes, I'm not saying it will always generate you the best code, sometimes it may even be bad. What I am saying is it CAN generate code that is reasonably performant, sometimes even more performant than you would have written it given time constraints, and fulfills requirements (even if sometimes it requires a little bit of manual effort) much faster than we ever could before.
  - drekipus 1y ago
    I can only assume that you have significant experience being a junior engineer
    - Jcampuzano2 1y ago
      First off, I would hope that everyone had experience being a junior engineer for some time. But if your assertion is that using AI for code generation and being successful with it makes you a junior engineer, then good luck keeping your job in the future. Just take a look at social media and there are a plethora of examples of prominent engineers using it with success.
  - sgarland 1y ago
    It generates reasonably performant code because most of the industry isn’t writing code that’s computationally bound. If you have to wait for network I/O anyway, it doesn’t really matter if your code is optimal, because that wait will dominate everything else.
lukan 1y ago
I lost all my snobism about that years ago and I do just follow the paradigm, "does it work". But for some reasons, even with AI I ain't on another level. And those reasons are, it all collapses very quickly once the complexity reaches an medium amount. And if I want to rely on things and debug them - I cannot just have a pile of generated garbage, that works as long as the sun is shining. For isolated tasks it works for me. For anything complex, I am faster on my own.
- Jcampuzano2 1y ago
  Most replies here make the claim that all AI generated code is "garbage". And I can't help but think most of the people who say that do not actually use it in their day to day with the most recent models and actually give it good instructions/requirements. No, it is not always perfect. Yes you will have to manually edit some of the code it generates. But yes it can and will generate good code if you know how to use it and use sophisticated tools with good guidance. And there are times where it will even write better more performant code than you could given the time requirements.
  - lyu07282 1y ago
    I think the root of the argument is that the AI critics are worried because they have the assumption that 1) you aren't experienced enough to know what "good code" looks like, and/or 2) you only care if it "works" and don't understand all the implications bad code will have downstream, again because of inexperience.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - lukan 1y ago
      If the code is a isolated module or function, all is well. Otherwise often not. But I am not worried. Give me a AI tool that can work with my whole codebase reliable and I gladly use it.
  - mplanchard 1y ago
lamename 1y ago
They will demand use of AI tools for "productivity" and then complain when there are bugs in prod without realizing the root cause.
- Jcampuzano2 1y ago
  They won't blame the AI as the root cause. They will blame you. This is why I mention you need to be competent enough to understand what is being generated or they will find someone else who does. There's no 2 ways around it. AI is here to stay.
  - drekipus 1y ago
    > you need to be competent enough to understand what is being generated We're all competent enough to understand what is generated. That's why everyone is doomer about it. What insights do you have above us when the LLM generates true="false" while i < 10 { i++ } What's the deep philosophical understanding that you have about this that makes us all sheeple for not understanding how this is actually the business's goose laying golden eggs. Not the engineers. Frankly. Businesses that use this, drop all their actual engineers, and then fall over when the slightest breeze comes. I am actually in favour, in a accelerationist sense.
    - icedchai 1y ago
      Have you actually tried using AI to generate code? Try it with a hobby project. You might be surprised!
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    The idea that you will actually really review all that vibecoded slop code comes across as very naive. The real question is how many companies have to accidentally expose their databases, suffer business-ruining data losses, and have downtime they are utterly unable to recover from quickly before CxOs start adjusting their opinions? Last time I saw a "Show HN" of someone showing off their vibecoded project, it leaked their OpenAI API key to all users. If that's how you want to run your business, go right ahead.
allthenopes25 1y ago
A sane person writes clean code because they are going to have to maintain it themselves one day a few years into the future when the baby kept them up all night for three nights in a row and coffee isn't working for them anymore and they can't remember anything about it and it's falling over so it's really urgent and f**** those guys they swore they'd get someone to take this on with a proper handover and surely there was a goddamn sent email somewhere about it but nothing is coming up when you search and goddamnit it used to compile did people ignore your comment about how it won't build with the new version yet so don't update the build tools and and and You write good code because you own it. If you get ChatGPT or Copilot or Claude or whateverthe****else to write it, you're going to have a whole lot less fun when it's on fire. The level of irresponsibility that "vibe coding" is introducing to the world is actually worse than the one that had people pouring their savings into a shitcoin. But it's the same arseholes talking it up.
- the_snooze 1y ago
  >The level of irresponsibility that "vibe coding" is introducing to the world is actually worse than the one that had people pouring their savings into a shitcoin. But it's the same arseholes talking it up. It's a broader ethos of irresponsibility and disposability that's infected so much of modern tech. Why polish up a game when you can ship it now and fix it later? Why delay an iPhone release that's "Built for Apple Intelligence (TM)" when you can sell the hype today and maybe deliver next quarter? Everyone wants the reward but none of the work and accountability. You're not even doing the minimum level of work; you're just putting up the appearance of effort. Who cares if what you built is just a brittle husk? Vibe coding is just the natural progression of that cynical philosophy.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
rester324 1y ago
Well that might be true, but I think the reason why they are blatantly acting like that because stakeholders and decision makers are detached from their decisions timewise. That's why I bring such topics as maintenance and stability very early on into the discussions and ask those stakeholders how much system downtime they can tolerate, so that they can feel the weight of their decision making, and that gives me an opportunity to explain why quality matters. Then it's up to them to decide how much crap they tolerate.
- BlueTemplar 1y ago
  Anthropogenic climate change and resource depletion comes to mind...
joks 1y ago
And then you have 0 domain experts because nobody has built the mental model of the code and what it's doing that you inherently build when you're actually doing the problem solving and code-writing yourself.
nkrisc 1y ago
Then who fixes it when it stops working? Or do you just par each other on the back and fold the company?
charles_f 1y ago
As long as I am going to be the one being called at night when there's a crash, I'll be the one to dictate what's "good enough". Throw away guardrails if you want to, I like sleeping.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
mwcampbell 1y ago
> Your boss, stakeholders, and especially non-technical people literally give 0 fucks about "quality code" as long as it does what they want it to do. We've all already heard this message a thousand times. There's no need to keep repeating it. Don't discourage people, especially young people, who want to do great work.
Glyptodon 1y ago
In my experience this isn't the case - it gets many details subtly wrong. Unless someone technical can nanny it you get weird fixes. For example, I recently had AI decide to remove a database column because it ran into an execution bug related to the column. Without a human in the loop I have no clue what the end game to that would have been. Similarly, it's getting better, but there've been times where it basically writes security vulnerabilities. Stakeholders in management should be aware of the risk, but seem oblivious to it. Maybe because there's little track record of anyone ever being held accountable for massive screw-ups, but at some point letting AI loose will lead to some kind of major disaster and there'll be some reevaluation.

edoceo 1y ago

This is true. But the cost after is high. Creating code, by hand or AI is easier than maintaining or modifying the system. And this is where a problem (still) appears - except now the AI-assiated authors have even less comprehension of the system.

boxed 1y ago

Clean code is nice. Working code is a requirement. You missed the point. AI slop doesn't just fail on point 1. It fails on point 2.

Jcampuzano2 1y ago
I work in an enterprise company where we just recently got access to use cursor, before that copilot. We have literally stood up entire services built practically entirely with AI that are deployed right now and consumers are using. AI does work with competent people behind the wheel. People can't keep hiding behind saying that it always churns out code that doesn't work. We are way past those days. If you don't you will end up losing your job. Theres no way around it. The problem is we may end up losing our jobs either way.
- pron 1y ago
  When I've seen examples of such cases, my impression was that they could be improved by taking the AI out of the picture and using some "low code" solution.
- MeetingsBrowser 1y ago
  > entire services built practically entirely with AI What kind of services and how complex are they? I've been using Cursor for a year and struggle to get the agent to make competent changes in a medium sized code base. Even something isolated like writing a test for a specific function usually take multiple rounds of iteration and manual cleanup at the end.
  - Jcampuzano2 1y ago
    Most services that are written today (Not just talking about my company/experience, I'm talking broadly) are not complex. Many are basically a copy paste of the same types of things that have been built thousands of times before. Now with that knowledge and knowing how LLM's should work it should come as no surprise that AI will be able to spin up new ones quite competently and quickly. Regarding tests: that is also something I find and many of my peers find that LLM's excel at. Given X inputs and Y outputs an llm will spit out a whole suite of tests for every case of your functions without issue except in complicated scenarios. End to end tests it may not do quite as well at since usually it requires a lot of externalities/setup, but it can help with generating some of the setup and given examples it can build from there. Of course this depends on how much you value those tests, since some don't even think tests are that useful nowadays.

bravetraveler 1y ago

I suspect experienced folks are well aware of the subjectivity of quality. How? Change control. Quality control exists until The Business deems otherwise. The reasons vary: vulnerability, promotion, whatever. Usually not my place to say. Personally, my 'product' isn't code. Even the 'code' isn't code. For every 8 hours of meetings I do, I crank out maybe 20 lines of YAML (Ansible). Then, another 4 hours of meetings handing that out/explaining the same basics for Political Points. The problem(s) relating to speed or job security have remarkably little to do with code; generated or not. The people I work with are functionally co-dependent because they don't use LLMs or... manuals. All this talk about "left behind"... to survive a bear, one doesn't have to be the fastest. Just not the slowest.

nalekberov 1y ago

> I really think a lot of the reason some people say it doesn't give them as much productivity as they would like is due largely to a desire to write "clean" code based on years and years of our own training, and due to having to be able to pass code review done by your peers. Machine doesn't get mad when an app takes forever to start or keeps constantly crashing, but we humans do. Writing "clean" code has the least importance when it comes to machine generated code.

Jcampuzano2 1y ago
People keep reading off this nonsense that AI generated code is always bad or slow. This is so far from the truth that I really think anybody who still says this has not actually used it for anything real in at least a couple years. Yes, I'm not saying it will always generate you the best code, sometimes it may even be bad. What I am saying is it CAN generate code that is reasonably performant, sometimes even more performant than you would have written it given time constraints, and fulfills requirements (even if sometimes it requires a little bit of manual effort) much faster than we ever could before.
- drekipus 1y ago
  I can only assume that you have significant experience being a junior engineer
  - Jcampuzano2 1y ago
    First off, I would hope that everyone had experience being a junior engineer for some time. But if your assertion is that using AI for code generation and being successful with it makes you a junior engineer, then good luck keeping your job in the future. Just take a look at social media and there are a plethora of examples of prominent engineers using it with success.
- sgarland 1y ago
  It generates reasonably performant code because most of the industry isn’t writing code that’s computationally bound. If you have to wait for network I/O anyway, it doesn’t really matter if your code is optimal, because that wait will dominate everything else.

lukan 1y ago

I lost all my snobism about that years ago and I do just follow the paradigm, "does it work". But for some reasons, even with AI I ain't on another level. And those reasons are, it all collapses very quickly once the complexity reaches an medium amount. And if I want to rely on things and debug them - I cannot just have a pile of generated garbage, that works as long as the sun is shining. For isolated tasks it works for me. For anything complex, I am faster on my own.

Jcampuzano2 1y ago
Most replies here make the claim that all AI generated code is "garbage". And I can't help but think most of the people who say that do not actually use it in their day to day with the most recent models and actually give it good instructions/requirements. No, it is not always perfect. Yes you will have to manually edit some of the code it generates. But yes it can and will generate good code if you know how to use it and use sophisticated tools with good guidance. And there are times where it will even write better more performant code than you could given the time requirements.
- lyu07282 1y ago
  I think the root of the argument is that the AI critics are worried because they have the assumption that 1) you aren't experienced enough to know what "good code" looks like, and/or 2) you only care if it "works" and don't understand all the implications bad code will have downstream, again because of inexperience.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - lukan 1y ago
    If the code is a isolated module or function, all is well. Otherwise often not. But I am not worried. Give me a AI tool that can work with my whole codebase reliable and I gladly use it.
- mplanchard 1y ago

lamename 1y ago

They will demand use of AI tools for "productivity" and then complain when there are bugs in prod without realizing the root cause.

Jcampuzano2 1y ago
They won't blame the AI as the root cause. They will blame you. This is why I mention you need to be competent enough to understand what is being generated or they will find someone else who does. There's no 2 ways around it. AI is here to stay.
- drekipus 1y ago
  > you need to be competent enough to understand what is being generated We're all competent enough to understand what is generated. That's why everyone is doomer about it. What insights do you have above us when the LLM generates true="false" while i < 10 { i++ } What's the deep philosophical understanding that you have about this that makes us all sheeple for not understanding how this is actually the business's goose laying golden eggs. Not the engineers. Frankly. Businesses that use this, drop all their actual engineers, and then fall over when the slightest breeze comes. I am actually in favour, in a accelerationist sense.
  - icedchai 1y ago
    Have you actually tried using AI to generate code? Try it with a hobby project. You might be surprised!
- yencabulator 1y ago
  The idea that you will actually really review all that vibecoded slop code comes across as very naive. The real question is how many companies have to accidentally expose their databases, suffer business-ruining data losses, and have downtime they are utterly unable to recover from quickly before CxOs start adjusting their opinions? Last time I saw a "Show HN" of someone showing off their vibecoded project, it leaked their OpenAI API key to all users. If that's how you want to run your business, go right ahead.

allthenopes25 1y ago

A sane person writes clean code because they are going to have to maintain it themselves one day a few years into the future when the baby kept them up all night for three nights in a row and coffee isn't working for them anymore and they can't remember anything about it and it's falling over so it's really urgent and f**** those guys they swore they'd get someone to take this on with a proper handover and surely there was a goddamn sent email somewhere about it but nothing is coming up when you search and goddamnit it used to compile did people ignore your comment about how it won't build with the new version yet so don't update the build tools and and and You write good code because you own it. If you get ChatGPT or Copilot or Claude or whateverthe****else to write it, you're going to have a whole lot less fun when it's on fire. The level of irresponsibility that "vibe coding" is introducing to the world is actually worse than the one that had people pouring their savings into a shitcoin. But it's the same arseholes talking it up.

the_snooze 1y ago
>The level of irresponsibility that "vibe coding" is introducing to the world is actually worse than the one that had people pouring their savings into a shitcoin. But it's the same arseholes talking it up. It's a broader ethos of irresponsibility and disposability that's infected so much of modern tech. Why polish up a game when you can ship it now and fix it later? Why delay an iPhone release that's "Built for Apple Intelligence (TM)" when you can sell the hype today and maybe deliver next quarter? Everyone wants the reward but none of the work and accountability. You're not even doing the minimum level of work; you're just putting up the appearance of effort. Who cares if what you built is just a brittle husk? Vibe coding is just the natural progression of that cynical philosophy.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

rester324 1y ago

Well that might be true, but I think the reason why they are blatantly acting like that because stakeholders and decision makers are detached from their decisions timewise. That's why I bring such topics as maintenance and stability very early on into the discussions and ask those stakeholders how much system downtime they can tolerate, so that they can feel the weight of their decision making, and that gives me an opportunity to explain why quality matters. Then it's up to them to decide how much crap they tolerate.

BlueTemplar 1y ago
Anthropogenic climate change and resource depletion comes to mind...

joks 1y ago

And then you have 0 domain experts because nobody has built the mental model of the code and what it's doing that you inherently build when you're actually doing the problem solving and code-writing yourself.

nkrisc 1y ago

Then who fixes it when it stops working? Or do you just par each other on the back and fold the company?

charles_f 1y ago

As long as I am going to be the one being called at night when there's a crash, I'll be the one to dictate what's "good enough". Throw away guardrails if you want to, I like sleeping.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

mwcampbell 1y ago

> Your boss, stakeholders, and especially non-technical people literally give 0 fucks about "quality code" as long as it does what they want it to do. We've all already heard this message a thousand times. There's no need to keep repeating it. Don't discourage people, especially young people, who want to do great work.

Glyptodon 1y ago

In my experience this isn't the case - it gets many details subtly wrong. Unless someone technical can nanny it you get weird fixes. For example, I recently had AI decide to remove a database column because it ran into an execution bug related to the column. Without a human in the loop I have no clue what the end game to that would have been. Similarly, it's getting better, but there've been times where it basically writes security vulnerabilities. Stakeholders in management should be aware of the risk, but seem oblivious to it. Maybe because there's little track record of anyone ever being held accountable for massive screw-ups, but at some point letting AI loose will lead to some kind of major disaster and there'll be some reevaluation.