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This field (SE - when I started out back in late 80s) was enjoyable. Now it has become toxic, from the interview process, to imitating "big tech" songs and dan

This field (SE - when I started out back in late 80s) was enjoyable. Now it has become toxic, from the interview process, to imitating "big tech" songs and dances by small fry companies, and now this. Is there any joy left in being a professional software developer?

bluefirebrand 1y ago
Making quite a bit of money brings me a lot of joy compared to other industries But the actual software part? I'm not sure anymore
diggan 1y ago
> This field (SE - when I started out back in late 80s) was enjoyable. Now it has become toxic I feel the same way today, but I got started around 2012 professionally. I wonder how much of this is just our fading optimism after seeing how shit really works behind the scenes, and how much the industry itself is responsible for it. I know we're not the only two people feeling this way either, but it seems all of us have different timescales from when it turned from "enjoyable" to "get me out of here".
- salawat 1y ago
  My issue stems from the attitudes of the people we're doing it for. I started out doing it for humanity. To bring the bicycle for the mind to everyone. Then one day I woke up and realized the ones paying me were also the ones using it to run over or do circles around everyone else not equipped with a bicycle yet; and were colluding to make crippled bicycles that'd never liberate the masses as much as they themselves had been previously liberated; bicycles designed to monitor, or to undermine their owner, or more disgustingly, their "licensee". So I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not going to continue making deliberately crippled, overly complex, legally encumbered bicycles for the mind, purely intended as subjects for ARR extraction.
  - ecocentrik 1y ago
    It's hard to find anything wrong with your conclusions except that you're leaving out the part where they're trying to automate our contributions to devalue our skills. I'm surprised there isn't a movement to halt the use of AI for certain tasks in software development on the same level as the active resistance from doctors against socialized medicine in the US. These expensive toys will inevitably introduce catastrophic level bugs and security vulnerabilities into critical infrastructure software. Right now, most of Microsoft's product offerings, like GitHub and Office, are critical infrastructure software.
    - diggan 1y ago
      > These expensive toys will inevitably introduce catastrophic level bugs and security vulnerabilities into critical infrastructure software. Right now, most of Microsoft's product offerings, like GitHub and Office, are critical infrastructure software. So nothing new? Just this/last month, it seems like the multi-select "open/close" button in the GitHub PR UI was just straight up broken. No one seemed to have noticed until I opened a bug report, and it continued being broken for weeks before they finally fixed it. Not the first time I encounter this on Microsoft properties, they seem to constantly push out broken shit, and no one seem to even notice until some sad user (like me) happens to stumble across it.
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      > I'm surprised there isn't a movement to halt the use of AI for certain tasks in software development on the same level as the active resistance from doctors against socialized medicine in the US. This is also shocking to me. Especially here on HN! Every tech CEO on earth is salivating over AI coding because they want it to devalue and/or replace their expensive human software developers. Whether or not that will actually happen, that's the purpose of building all of these "agentic" coding tools. And here we are, dumbass software engineers, cheerleading for and building the means of our own destruction! We downplay it with bullshit like "Oh, but AI is just a way to augment our work, it will never really replace us or lower our compensation!" Wild how excited we all are about this.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- vrighter 1y ago
  I started coding at a young age, but entered the professional world in 2012, just like you. I feel the same. I just can't come to grips with the fact that the goal is not to write good software anymore, but to get something, anything out the door on which we can then sell by marketing it based on stuff it doesn't do yet (but it will, we promise!) so that we can make more money and fake making something "new" again (putting a textbox and a button, and hooking it up to an LLM api). Software is nowadays assumed to not work properly. And we're not allowed to fix it anymore!
sweman 1y ago
[flagged]
- camdenreslink 1y ago
  A very very small percentage of professional software developers get that.
  - spacemadness 1y ago
    Sounds like the type of person OP was complaining about. Usually executives or very lucky ones who started at Nvidia 6-7 years ago, etc.
coldpie 1y ago
I've been looking at getting a CDL and becoming a city bus driver, or maybe a USPS driver or deliveryman or clerk or something.
- yubblegum 1y ago
  I hear you. Same boat just can't figure out the life jacket yet. (You do fine wood work, why not that? I am considering finding entry level work in architecture myself - kicking myself for giving that up for software now. Did not see this shit show coming.)
  - coldpie 1y ago
    > You do fine wood work, why not that? Thank you. It's something I'm actively pursuing, I'm hoping to finish some chairs this spring and see if any local shops are interested in stocking them. But I'm skeptical I could find enough business to make it work full-time, pay for my family's health insurance, and so on. We'll see.
iamleppert 1y ago
No, there is absolutely no joy left.
bwfan123 1y ago
It happens in waves. For a period, there was an oversupply of cs engineers, and now, the supply will shrink. On top of this, the BS put out by AI code will require experienced engineers to fix. So, for experienced engineers, I see a great future fixing the shit show that is AI-code.
- raxxorraxor 1y ago
  So many little scripts are spawned and they are all shit for production. I stopped reviewing them, pray to the omnissiah now and spray incense into our server room to placate the machine gods. Because that shit makes you insane as well.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  Each time that I arrive at a new job, I take some time to poke around at the various software projects. If the state of the union is awful, I always think: "Great: No where to go but up." If the state of the union is excellent, I think: "Uh oh. I will probably drag down the average here and make it a little bit worse, because I am an average software dev."

bluefirebrand 1y ago

Making quite a bit of money brings me a lot of joy compared to other industries But the actual software part? I'm not sure anymore

diggan 1y ago

> This field (SE - when I started out back in late 80s) was enjoyable. Now it has become toxic I feel the same way today, but I got started around 2012 professionally. I wonder how much of this is just our fading optimism after seeing how shit really works behind the scenes, and how much the industry itself is responsible for it. I know we're not the only two people feeling this way either, but it seems all of us have different timescales from when it turned from "enjoyable" to "get me out of here".

salawat 1y ago
My issue stems from the attitudes of the people we're doing it for. I started out doing it for humanity. To bring the bicycle for the mind to everyone. Then one day I woke up and realized the ones paying me were also the ones using it to run over or do circles around everyone else not equipped with a bicycle yet; and were colluding to make crippled bicycles that'd never liberate the masses as much as they themselves had been previously liberated; bicycles designed to monitor, or to undermine their owner, or more disgustingly, their "licensee". So I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not going to continue making deliberately crippled, overly complex, legally encumbered bicycles for the mind, purely intended as subjects for ARR extraction.
- ecocentrik 1y ago
  It's hard to find anything wrong with your conclusions except that you're leaving out the part where they're trying to automate our contributions to devalue our skills. I'm surprised there isn't a movement to halt the use of AI for certain tasks in software development on the same level as the active resistance from doctors against socialized medicine in the US. These expensive toys will inevitably introduce catastrophic level bugs and security vulnerabilities into critical infrastructure software. Right now, most of Microsoft's product offerings, like GitHub and Office, are critical infrastructure software.
  - diggan 1y ago
    > These expensive toys will inevitably introduce catastrophic level bugs and security vulnerabilities into critical infrastructure software. Right now, most of Microsoft's product offerings, like GitHub and Office, are critical infrastructure software. So nothing new? Just this/last month, it seems like the multi-select "open/close" button in the GitHub PR UI was just straight up broken. No one seemed to have noticed until I opened a bug report, and it continued being broken for weeks before they finally fixed it. Not the first time I encounter this on Microsoft properties, they seem to constantly push out broken shit, and no one seem to even notice until some sad user (like me) happens to stumble across it.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    > I'm surprised there isn't a movement to halt the use of AI for certain tasks in software development on the same level as the active resistance from doctors against socialized medicine in the US. This is also shocking to me. Especially here on HN! Every tech CEO on earth is salivating over AI coding because they want it to devalue and/or replace their expensive human software developers. Whether or not that will actually happen, that's the purpose of building all of these "agentic" coding tools. And here we are, dumbass software engineers, cheerleading for and building the means of our own destruction! We downplay it with bullshit like "Oh, but AI is just a way to augment our work, it will never really replace us or lower our compensation!" Wild how excited we all are about this.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
vrighter 1y ago
I started coding at a young age, but entered the professional world in 2012, just like you. I feel the same. I just can't come to grips with the fact that the goal is not to write good software anymore, but to get something, anything out the door on which we can then sell by marketing it based on stuff it doesn't do yet (but it will, we promise!) so that we can make more money and fake making something "new" again (putting a textbox and a button, and hooking it up to an LLM api). Software is nowadays assumed to not work properly. And we're not allowed to fix it anymore!

sweman 1y ago

[flagged]

camdenreslink 1y ago
A very very small percentage of professional software developers get that.
- spacemadness 1y ago
  Sounds like the type of person OP was complaining about. Usually executives or very lucky ones who started at Nvidia 6-7 years ago, etc.

coldpie 1y ago

I've been looking at getting a CDL and becoming a city bus driver, or maybe a USPS driver or deliveryman or clerk or something.

yubblegum 1y ago
I hear you. Same boat just can't figure out the life jacket yet. (You do fine wood work, why not that? I am considering finding entry level work in architecture myself - kicking myself for giving that up for software now. Did not see this shit show coming.)
- coldpie 1y ago
  > You do fine wood work, why not that? Thank you. It's something I'm actively pursuing, I'm hoping to finish some chairs this spring and see if any local shops are interested in stocking them. But I'm skeptical I could find enough business to make it work full-time, pay for my family's health insurance, and so on. We'll see.

iamleppert 1y ago

No, there is absolutely no joy left.

bwfan123 1y ago

It happens in waves. For a period, there was an oversupply of cs engineers, and now, the supply will shrink. On top of this, the BS put out by AI code will require experienced engineers to fix. So, for experienced engineers, I see a great future fixing the shit show that is AI-code.

raxxorraxor 1y ago
So many little scripts are spawned and they are all shit for production. I stopped reviewing them, pray to the omnissiah now and spray incense into our server room to placate the machine gods. Because that shit makes you insane as well.
throwaway2037 1y ago
Each time that I arrive at a new job, I take some time to poke around at the various software projects. If the state of the union is awful, I always think: "Great: No where to go but up." If the state of the union is excellent, I think: "Uh oh. I will probably drag down the average here and make it a little bit worse, because I am an average software dev."