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A South Korean grand master on the art of the perfect soy sauce
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoHow would traditional taste to someone who has spent their life on mass produced kikoman?
- thfuran 1y agoSalty
- LarsAlereon 1y agoKikkoman has a double-fermented soy sauce in their product line, brewing starts with their regular soy sauce instead of salt water. The flavor is much deeper and more complex, it's actually less salty than regular soy sauce.
- interestica 1y agoHave they thought about triple fermenting? Quadruple?
- dfxm12 1y agoAnother commentor suggests this is more like tamari than soy sauce. If it is, expect a similar but more intense flavor and an especially long after taste. It's hard to describe the more intense flavor. It's like if you only taste soy sauce with the center of your tongue, you taste tamari with the tip, center and sides.
- GloriousKoji 1y agoI grew up on kikkoman, view it as the soy sauce equivalent of Heinz ketchup or Best Foods/Hellmans mayonnaise and still cook with it all the time. But after tasting a wide variety of soy sauce I would describe kikkoman's profile as salty, metallic and stout-beer like. The fancier soy sauces seem less salty (despite similar amounts of sodium) and can have varying notes of oyster sauce, seafood, sweetness, coffee, molasses and MSG.
- etblg 1y agoAre there any brands of soy sauce that could be commonly (even if its in an Asian market) found in the states that you would recommend?
- tpm 1y agoOne that we use at home and could be available is the Sempio 'green' soy sauce with 25% less salt. https://en.sempio.com/product/soysauce/view/605 https://en.sempio.com/product/soysauce/view/605
- shawn_w 1y agoPearl River Bridge makes pretty good Chinese style soy sauces and seems readily available, at least in the PNW. I use the light and dark sauces a lot in cooking.
- AdmiralAsshat 1y agoI started buying Kikkoman's "whole bean" soy sauce (I don't remember what it's called in Japanese: maroyaka?), because I found a local Asian mart carried it, and it was reasonably priced. Seems you can find it on Amazon these days, even: https://www.amazon.com/Kikkoman-Maroyaka-Sauce-33-8-Ounce-Pack/dp/B0046GFTD2?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Kikkoman-Maroyaka-Sauce-33-8-Ounce-Pa... Haven't compared it side-by-side with the normal stuff, but anecdotally it tasted a little more mellow to my palette, and I will probably continue using it moving forward when my 1L bottle runs out.
- steveBK123 1y agoNot sure about using Heinz ketchup as an example. To me there are cheap ketchups that taste worse, and fancy yuppie ketchups that taste different for 2-5x the price, but nothing really tastes genuinely better. Ketchup is like a staple unobjectionable thing to stock in the fridge for kids/guests/comfort. Stocking a weird one kind of defeats the purpose. I'd rather try various steak / bbq / teriyaki / whatever sauces that set out to be categorically different.
- Spooky23 1y ago
- jt2190 1y agoKikkoman USA has been brewing a lighter soy sauce in Wisconsin for the U.S. market for a few decades while now. It’s what most people in the U.S. think of when they hear “Kikkoman”. Specialty markets sell imported Kikkoman products, such as “traditionally brewed” soy sauce which tastes stronger. Note that “stronger” doesn’t mean “better”: Asian consumers are used to using different styles of soy sauce as they see fit. U.S. consumers still largely view soy sauce as a single thing with no variation except maybe “low sodium”. Definitely worth exploring the different varieties.
- skrtskrt 1y agoTry Pearl River Bridge Light soy sauce. Is the default recommended light soy sauce for a lot of asian cooking, and easy to find. You'll like it better than the harsh flavor of Kikkoman
- forgotoldacc 1y agoThere's no one "traditional" soy sauce. It's kind of like wine. If you live your life only drinking sweet port wines straight from the bottle, you'll think a dry white wine is gross if you use it the same way. But if you're making a cream pasta or some sort of fish, you'll quickly realize white wine--and every wine--has its place. For example, I find kikkoman to be absolutely awful for fried rice. It has an oddly sharp taste that just doesn't work. Chinese soy sauces don't have that sharpness but have a very wide and smooth savoriness that works well with fried rice. But if you try Chinese soy sauce with sashimi, it tastes flat and very wrong. That sharpness of a Japanese soy sauce works better, and a high quality Japanese soy sauce has a milder sharpness that emphasizes the fish flavors but not so weak that it makes the flavor weird like a Chinese soy sauce would.
- SwtCyber 1y agoProbably like tasting a whole different thing. Traditional soy sauce hits way differently, it’s not just salty, it’s got layers
- jihadjihad 1y agoSo is it like tamari? Seems to be made from fermented soybean paste, which is how tamari is made too (byproduct of miso paste). Most of the soy sauce you encounter in the US has wheat, while in Japan (and seemingly South Korea) there's no wheat added. Personally once I switched to tamari I never went back to "regular" soy sauce, the flavor is quite a bit richer and more versatile in cooking, in my opinion.
- alistairSH 1y agoI was under the impression that traditional Japanese soy sauce (shoyu, not tamari) also contains wheat (close to 50/50 ratio) - it's used to help start the fermentation.
- mlinhares 1y agoIt does, when it doesn't that's when you call it tamari.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- AlotOfReading 1y agoTamari is "low wheat" rather than specifically "no wheat". Many manufacturers (particularly when selling to Western markets) will simply take the extra steps to expand the market.
- elhudy 1y agoEh, it depends what you mean by traditional. Ramen is "traditional" in japan, but it was invented in the early 1900s. Similarly, since wheat wasn't commonly imported into japan prior to the 1800s, most actually old tradition recipes didn't contain wheat either.
- least 1y ago> Most of the soy sauce you encounter in the US has wheat, while in Japan (and seemingly South Korea) there's no wheat added. This is incorrect with regards to Japan. Shoyu is made with wheat. Tamari is not. Their production process is different. Kikkoman is the most popular brand in the West AND in Japan, which is a koikuchi shoyu, which is the "standard" shoyu type in Japan. It is made with wheat.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- NelsonMinar 1y agoFermentation is such wonderful technology. It both preserves and makes things more delicious.
- carabiner 1y agoIt also makes things rotten. The difference between spoilage and fermentation/aging is whether humans like the result at the end.
- tough 1y agoSame could be said of fire and burnt food
- dlisboa 1y agoThe difference is whether humans get ill or not.
- charcircuit 1y agoPeople get ill from alcohol, yet it's called fermentation.
- algorias 1y agoNo, people get ill from excessive quantities of alcohol.
- literalAardvark 1y agoAcetaldehyde is always toxic, so no, they always get sick, just less sick.
- bobxmax 1y agoGetting drunk is literally poisoning yourself. Some humans just happen to enjoy the symptoms of said poison.
- jmyeet 1y agoSo let me take a detour that I promise will get back to the soy sauce. Recently New York Magazine came out with an article about so-called "West Village girls" [1]. For anyone unfamiliar, the West Village (and Greenwich Village more broadly) is a part of Manhattan below 14th street that had huge cultural significance int eh 20th century. Many musicians, artists and luminaries lived there for a time. It was the home of the Stonewall riots [2] and is otherwise important to LGTBQ culture. The West Village girl is pretty much the opposite of all those things. Basic, typically white, posts on IG that "I can't live without my Starbuck's", dresses generically, is chasing her Sex and the City dream, is likely supported by her parents in her 20s after graduating college (if not outright having a trust fund) and probably has hobbies like "travel" and "eating out". There is a long history of a certain kind of (typically white) people who are devoid of "culture" and move to a place and make it worse by not respecting that culture, like moving above a Mexican restaurant or a bar that's been there for 40 years and geting it shut down for noise. That sort of thing. This segment is typically obsessed with finding "the best", seeing and being seen at the "best" or just the "hippest" places and so on. I saw a thing recently about people who travel for an hour plus to find the "best" New York slice. The particular creator explained that these chasers just don't get the point. The point is that you can get good slices pretty much anywhere in NYC. It's ubiquitous. You just don't need to line up for 2 hours at some hole-in-the-wall in Queens or whatever. And now I'll bring it back to soy sauce. This seems to fit this obsession of finding or having "the best". For me, the difference between "good" and "the best" for pretty much anything is so marginal that it's never worth paying a huge premium, going terribly out of your way and/or waiting for a long time. That goes for restaurants, food items, wine and pretty much anything. But every time I see people who obsess over "the best" it always strikes me as so sad, like these chasers just have to have the external validation of being "in the club". I particularly see this with people who are obsessed with Japan, like they look for the absolute best sushi, omikase or whatever but again, I think the point of Japan is you can find good of anything Japanese everywhere, because it's Japan. I'm happy there are craftsmen who take pride in their craft and their output, be they Japanese teapot makers, calligraphy brush makers or soy sauce producers. And if you get a chance to try such things and appreciate their craft, great. But chasing it always seems so empty. [1]: https://www.thecut.com/article/nyc-west-village-neighborhood-new-generation-women-girls.html https://www.thecut.com/article/nyc-west-village-neighborhood... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
- ge96 1y agoIt's interesting they mention charcoal purification, there is this plant that Japanese people eat (like wild green tubes with leaves) and they soak it in water with wood ash from a fire.
- vasusen 1y agoI believe (more likely, chatgpt believes) this plant is Warabi. I didn't know it was processed with charcoal purification! The process sounds similar to how I use something acidic to process the toxins from Taro leaves before eating them.
- ge96 1y agoYeah that looks right, long tubes. Another one I see a guy foraging/eating is a big leaf called "strawberry something" and he batters it up/fries it, interesting.
- bigiain 1y ago> I believe (more likely, chatgpt believes) Possibly the most depressing thing I've read all week... :sigh:
- vasusen 1y agoSorry instead of "googling" this plant up, I used ChatGPT to tell me candidates on what this plant might be.
- esperent 1y agoJust don't tell people where you got the info until it's normalized to ask AIs. Honestly, while LLMs hallucinate, they still return more reliable info than using Google and getting the info from an SEO spam blog post that played Chinese whispers with already wrong info from ten other blogs. The only difference is that using Google is normalized, so you wouldn't have felt the need to announce it. Of course, unless you personally feel the info is reliable, you probably shouldn't post it no matter where you got it from.
- konfusinomicon 1y agoI delved into the world of soy sauce a few years back and id say if your looking to go beyond kikkoman, or god forbid that swill they call la choy, go for kimlan. super special, I-Jen (for something a little different), light, or aged..pearl river bridge isn't too bad either just watch out for brands with a bunch of added chemicals in the ingredients
- getnormality 1y agoPearl River Bridge has a seasoned soy sauce that's been my constant for over a decade.
- eth0up 1y agoLa choy is to soy sauce what Maruchen is to real ramen or Kraft to French cheese. Try San J, available in most 'health' grocers, eg Food Hole, Sprouts, etc. it's not fine, but it's good.
- metaphor 1y ago> La choy is to soy sauce what Maruchen is to real ramen Oh come on now, surely Maruchan deserves a bit more credit...at the very least, no one is breaking the bank while desecrating their soul. In contrast, at my local Walmart, a 15-oz bottle of La Choy is priced +50% higher than its (subjectively superior) Kikkoman alternative of the same size!
- eth0up 1y agoI'm enjoying the throes of salmonella presently and it all seems unappealing. The fucking pain. But even in this wretched state, I have some memory of desire for Paldo, but none for Maruchan. Yeah, I'm in genuine agony, probably preparing to puke from all holes, and I'm reading HN... while writhing and moaning. I guess you could say I'm sick. And so is la choy
- eth0up 1y ago[flagged]
- arunabha 1y agoLots of good recommendations here, but I'll add mine which is Zhongba 1 year fermented light soy sauce. The long fermentation time and the addition of a specific white mushroom (口蘑 (kǒumó)) gives it a somewhat unique deep flavour without too much saltiness. Great for dishes where the primary taste is from the soy sauce.
- eth0up 1y agoFor over a decade I used Yamasa exclusively. It's pretty typical soy sauce, but it's 1) brewed in Japan, 2) has no preservatives other than alcohol. I know there are superior versions, but one should never be sorely disappointed with Yamasa. In this new economy, I've adjusted my standards so that I still have something to put the soy sauce on, and have been giving Marca Pina (Philippines) a go. Not bad, but contains preservatives. I've never had true artisan soy sauce and suspect I never will. But used skillfully, amazing work can be done with Yamasa. Treacherous Joe's, a decade or so ago, had a pure Japanese soy sauce, but at some point cheapened it with vinegar, albeit a negligible amount. Open to suggestions that don't require being involved in the black budget.
- SwtCyber 1y agoFood isn't just about taste... it's memory, tradition, and identity all wrapped up in something you can smell and hold. What Ki Soon-do's doing isn't just making soy sauce, it's carrying centuries of Korean culture in every jar. It's the kind of craft that comes from generations of hands, instincts, and care, and not something you can automate or rush.
- pizza 1y agoChatGPT, is that you?
- throwaway2037 1y agoYeah, I had the same uncanny valley feeling when I read this phrase: "carrying centuries of Korean culture in every jar". What next: Recommended that we "delve" into the history of soy sauce production?
- SwtCyber 1y agoNah, not a bot :) Maybe I leaned a little poetic there, but I do think there's something powerful about how much history and identity can be packed into something as humble as soy sauce...
- jacknews 1y ago"Ki Soon-do’s soy sauce has been served to Donald Trump " lol, not someone I associate with refined tastes.
- diffeomorphism 1y agohttps://www.seriouseats.com/do-you-know-your-soy-sauces-japanese-chinese-indonesian-differences https://www.seriouseats.com/do-you-know-your-soy-sauces-japa... There are lots of different types of soy sauce catering to different uses.
- bookofjoe 1y agoOhsawa Nama Shoyu has been my go-to for decades https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Mine-Natural-Food-Co/dp/B0019LA78E/ref=asc_df_B0019LA78E?mcid=2a09e65409253bff8ec60e39a43e500a&hvocijid=6563241179898736564-B0019LA78E-&hvexpln=73&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=721245378154&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6563241179898736564&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027070&hvtargid=pla-2281435178818&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Mine-Natural-Food-Co/dp/B0019LA7...
- archagon 1y agoDitto: have yet to find something for everyday use that tastes better to my palate, even when compared to higher end sauces. Their mirin is quite good, too.
- j7ake 1y agoMust be an article for westerners because the average Asian household would have 4+ different soy sauces in their kitchen eg light, dark, steamed fish, raw fish, meat marinades. Use Lee kum Lee for cooked stuff, Japanese ones for sashimi. For restaurants they sometimes cook their own soy sauce with different oil and herbs for extra flavour