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"Breaking news! Corruption and totalitarianism of the Russian government, KGB and orthodox church exposed by the unimaginable injustice dealt to the members of

"Breaking news! Corruption and totalitarianism of the Russian government, KGB and orthodox church exposed by the unimaginable injustice dealt to the members of the Pussy Riot and undisputed chess champion Gary Kasparov" Anyways, here's what I was motivated to write in an earlier post on this topic: Why isn't Madonna or these other outraged people protesting over the 32 miners killed in South Africa? I understand 3 years (or is it 2?) is a tough punishment for what is basically vandalism by western standards (although I'm sure we can find examples or worse injustices in any of the western judicial systems). The organized and overblown reaction to all of this is much more about ruining Russia's reputation as a democratic nation than anything else. I've actually heard the nightly news-anchor here in Canada report on "International condemnation" of the sentencing. Are you fucking kidding me? Miners being gunned down for protesting in South Africa, Omahr Khadr still sitting in Guantanamo for something he might've been involved when he was 16, all the Wikileaks shit from Iraq Afghanistan... and the Pussy Riot going for a 2 year stint for vandalism is causing "international condemnation"?! If anything's made me aware of how alive the cold war is, this is it. Also this: I don't want to be misunderstood.. I'm in favour of Kasparov and the Pussy Riot doing what they're doing and fighting for a better government in Russia... as anyone should be doing for their country! But I am just irritated by the "better than thou" indignations echoed in media channels of the equally unjust western world that tends to ignore massive wrongdoings that are too inconvenient to the larger narrative.

vacri 14y ago
I don't know, why aren't people even aware of the Second Congo War, which with over 5 million dead is the most deadly war since WWII, and it happened in the last 15 years. The problem is simply that Africa is just not of interest to Western eyes. Had those miners been gunned down in Belarus, it would have made the wider news.
- true_religion 14y ago
  I wouldn't really hold it against Westerners to care about minor disputes in the nations on their continent because historically those minor disputes used to flare up into wars that affect them and their well being. Regional wars in other continents don't tend to have the same effect.
- monsterix 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War There are more deaths by starvation and malnutrition than by weapons. That explains it. No money involved. Sad but true.
  - vacri 14y ago
    It's not the weapon thing, its the 'in Africa' thing. A couple of years ago, there was a clash between muslims and christians in Nigeria that left something like 300 dead. It was simply an article in the 'world news' section. In searching for that article, I found one from two months ago where dozens more were killed, so it's still going on without making the headlines (outside of the 'world news' section) http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57455562/nigeria-dozens-killed-in-christian-muslim-strife/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57455562/nigeria-dozens-... Perhaps another aspect is that the story of "many dead in African incident" is rather common, so it pulls less eyeballs.
    - mc32 14y ago
      There is also sporadic violence in regions of India that barely hit the news. Or Philipinne or Indonesian or Brazilian violence which might make some corner of some news outlet. I think it' just one of those 'it's in a far away land with little presence in the world stage' problem. Still, the ongoing regional violence in Africa deserves more attention from the world, as their regional military police from the African Union seem either apathetic, powerless or corrupt and only go in at their whim, it would appear.
- anovikov 14y ago
  It is not in the interest of anyone's eyes. Nobody knows of Second Congo War in Russia, either.
itsuart 14y ago
It is 2 years.
belriosity 14y ago
I mostly agree with what you said. I very strongly disagree with the use of the phrase "equally unjust." It sounds like false equivalence (unless I misread your comment). The western world largely is better than Russia in matters of freedom of speech/expression. Your comment then segues into conspiracy? Just to reiterate, I agree with the bulk of your comment, but I felt compelled to comment on your last paragraph.
scarmig 14y ago
There's a slight difference: Russia has nuclear weapons(1), a dictatorial autocrat, and a desire to be a world power. South Africa is an only slighty out-of-the-ordinary cesspool of corruption. Of course, all those other things you mentioned are, in isolation, much worse than these recent Russian affairs, and obviously the Western media takes a particular thrill in being putting on the mantle of courageous defender of human rights to condemn a geopolitical rival. But a bunch of workplace strikers being gunned down by an undisciplined police force isn't really indicative of much (as outrageous and terrible as it is), while Russia doubling down on shutting down internal dissent, despite international attention and condemnation, is very, very interesting and worthy of attention. (1) Yeah, yeah, South Africa stockpiled and proliferated a hundred nukes or so in preparation for a race war. Point still stands.
- krickle 14y ago
  Did you notice Guantanamo was also mentioned? I guess you are still right in that a dictatorial plutocracy is marginally better.
- eps 14y ago
  > a desire to be a world power With Russia being the primary energy supplier of Western Europe, you might want to think through the desire part a bit better.
  - anovikov 14y ago
    It's not. Surprising fact, but Russian gas supply is 6.5% of primary energy in the EU, and Russian oil supply about as much. It is the largest supplier, but not dominant, and can be cut out quickly if needed. Only Slovakia is heavily dependent on Russian energy, the rest can do without in a few years if needed.
    - darkestkhan 14y ago
      Poland s also depending on Russian natural gas (primary source of natural gas in Poland)
true_religion 14y ago
Madonna is protesting her collegues---fellow artists being sent to prison on what she thinks are trumped up charges. Similarly HackerNews goes crazy anytime a developer is treated even the least bit badly by Apple or Google because they're in our In-Group, and its to our self benefit to protest. The plight of people a world away, who aren't like you.... well it doesn't touch the emotional buttons of many people.
rdtsc 14y ago
Read this book : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Poli... and you won't be surprised a bit. Western supposedly "free" media channels operate as expected according to the proposed model.
incosta 14y ago
So Madonna should now comment on anything going over the world? She been to Moscow and SPB, so she expressed what she was thinking about the case which is a significant issue in Russia. Good enough? Regarding the "vandalism" claim, you are wrong. The three girls have not touched a thing there. At most, they deserved to pay a fine (even according to Russian laws). I suggest you study the facts first before starting another of your ironic passages.
A1kmm 14y ago
> for what is basically vandalism by western standards Singing a song protesting the president and religion in a church is not vandalism, and in many countries would not be considered a crime at all.
- eps 14y ago
  Makes you wonder what would've happened to these Pussy Riot clowns should've they picked some Alabama church for their performance.
  - daliusd 14y ago
    I'm not sure if it is fair comparison because there was no place for religion in Soviet Russia.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - ianb 14y ago
    Nothing? As far as I can tell they went into a church, a public church (though maybe under false pretenses) and performed while being filmed, against the wishes of the people there, and I'm guessing were asked to leave and did not do so. You could come up with crimes in the U.S. for what they did, but convictions wouldn't happen, and anything more than minor legal harassment is unlikely. And if some zealous prosecutor did put forth some effort the defense could and would be robust, and it would take a long time, and it would be very questionable what the outcome would be, with a wide variety of available defenses. The people who end up in jail over stuff that seems minor usually put forward a terrible defense. People do stuff like this all the time in the U.S. – this is performance art, and no more intrusive or offensive than typical performance art, and those people don't go to jail. And Alabama churches aren't some otherworldly place.
    - mladenkovacevic 14y ago
      You and I may understand it as performance art but next time you're feeling particularly creative, gather a few of your artsy chums, go into a Manhattan synagogue, put on Balaklavas over your faces and start to scream out profanities against Israel and capitalism. Then proceed to enjoy the hilarity as NYPD hauls you away and FBI puts you on a no-fly list. With both Moscow's and New York's experience with large-scale terrorist attacks I'm not surprised by how jumpy their citizens might be.
guelo 14y ago
I was wondering if the reason for all the media coverage was because of the slightly titilating name, the press just went crazy saying pussy because they had a legitimate reason to say it. But the political freedoms really are pretty bad in Russia so I'm OK with it being highlighted. Personally I have plenty of outrage to go around, im not going to run out.
mtw 14y ago
why South Africa or omahr khadr, we've had 20k dead in Syria in the past months. Tragedies also in Afghanistan.
1gor 14y ago
The organized and overblown reaction to all of this is much more about ruining Russia's reputation as a democratic nation than anything else. Because there is a political PR campaign going on aimed at shaping public opinion. Its political goals may be noble or may be not, but it feels a bit strange seeing it on HN. One of Russian Erlang mailing lists recently banned political spam on off-topic grounds. Alas, no such luck with HN.
jamesaguilar 14y ago
"As long as there's anything worse than X in the world, you're not allowed to worry about X?"
smsm42 14y ago
I don't get it. Each time somebody protests some injustice or evil happening somewhere, some people couldn't find anything better to do but chime in with "why you protest X but not Y? if you don't protest every single injustice I want you to protest, you must be a hypocrite!" Come on people, how it even makes sense to you? Who on earth could live up to this impossible standard of protesting every single injustice? It makes it only worse that your other demands of condemnations are full of factual inaccuracies - Omahr Khadr is sitting in Gitmo not for "something he might've been involved" but for, among other terrorist activities, murdering an American - Sergeant Christopher James Speer, to which he admitted and plead guilty. Pussy Riot had nothing to do with vandalism and weren't accused of vandalism. Western world is not "equally unjust" as nobody is imprisoned for 2 years for protesting the head of state. The press is not "ignoring" any of the issues you raised - Wikileaks revelations, Gitmo prisoners and other events are extensively discussed in the press and nobody is being imprisoned for doing so.
- DominikR 14y ago
  From the Wikipedia article on Pussy Riot: "Pussy Riot members Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Yekaterina Samutsevich participated in some Voina performances. Tolokonnikova was part of a performance in which a number of couples were filmed having sex in the Biology Museum in Moscow in 2008." You can easily find footage of them participating in this orgy. How would you handle such "protesters" that constantly show this kind of behaviour for many years? I guess they would be imprisoned in the US as well.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    I would not "handle" them in any way. Why should I "handle" them? There are a lot of people having sex, some of them film that, so what? Who cares about it and how it is related to anything? If you think people that have sex or film it (provided, of course, we're talking about consenting adults) are imprisoned in the US, you obviously do not know much about US. In the US, to be imprisoned, one has to actually commit a crime and be judged and sentenced, and this happens in independent court which does not jump when the government says "jump!". So please do not guess, because your guess is wrong.
dchest 14y ago
That's a very interesting way of applying "children are starving in Africa"/appeal to worse problems argument.
pessimizer 14y ago
>Why isn't Madonna or these other outraged people protesting over the 32 miners killed in South Africa? I'm not sure if this is a serious question. They are musicians and entertainers, many with punk roots (Madonna was NY Downtown, which is close enough), some who have been attacked by governments for social statements in their works using "traumatized" members of the public as a proxy. Pussy Riot is a band. If you're not talking about Madonna, Sting, or any of the musicians that have been keeping this stuff in the news, who are you talking about? Me? It bugs me because the Church, an autocratic regime, and the Russian judicial system have merged to a point where they aren't even tolerating the existence of even trivial, fairly-vapid, middle-class, artsy dissent from a renewed nationalist program - and don't even have the shame to do it in secret, because they feel that enough of the public is behind them that they'll get away with it. That's scary, and doesn't bode well for the future. It certainly doesn't even get into the ballpark of bugging me as much as Guantanamo. Guantanamo is happening in my country, and is a trampling on of my rights, and my constitution. Why is it different from striking miners being murdered in South Africa? Because the striking miners weren't gunned down in a courtroom, after months of deliberation, with the support of the majority of the South African public, maybe? Maybe because the aggression of the state in support of capitol against striking workers is a known, and common evil? Maybe because the victims were black working men, not pretty middle-class white women involved in entertainment? Asking how people can be more concerned about one than the other at this moment seems intentionally obtuse. Some people don't care at all about Pussy Riot, some don't care at all about the miners, some care about both, some care about neither, but the range of completely different concerns raised by each of those situations could be enumerated all day without hint of exhaustion.

vacri 14y ago

I don't know, why aren't people even aware of the Second Congo War, which with over 5 million dead is the most deadly war since WWII, and it happened in the last 15 years. The problem is simply that Africa is just not of interest to Western eyes. Had those miners been gunned down in Belarus, it would have made the wider news.

true_religion 14y ago
I wouldn't really hold it against Westerners to care about minor disputes in the nations on their continent because historically those minor disputes used to flare up into wars that affect them and their well being. Regional wars in other continents don't tend to have the same effect.
monsterix 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War There are more deaths by starvation and malnutrition than by weapons. That explains it. No money involved. Sad but true.
- vacri 14y ago
  It's not the weapon thing, its the 'in Africa' thing. A couple of years ago, there was a clash between muslims and christians in Nigeria that left something like 300 dead. It was simply an article in the 'world news' section. In searching for that article, I found one from two months ago where dozens more were killed, so it's still going on without making the headlines (outside of the 'world news' section) http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57455562/nigeria-dozens-killed-in-christian-muslim-strife/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57455562/nigeria-dozens-... Perhaps another aspect is that the story of "many dead in African incident" is rather common, so it pulls less eyeballs.
  - mc32 14y ago
    There is also sporadic violence in regions of India that barely hit the news. Or Philipinne or Indonesian or Brazilian violence which might make some corner of some news outlet. I think it' just one of those 'it's in a far away land with little presence in the world stage' problem. Still, the ongoing regional violence in Africa deserves more attention from the world, as their regional military police from the African Union seem either apathetic, powerless or corrupt and only go in at their whim, it would appear.
anovikov 14y ago
It is not in the interest of anyone's eyes. Nobody knows of Second Congo War in Russia, either.

itsuart 14y ago

It is 2 years.

belriosity 14y ago

I mostly agree with what you said. I very strongly disagree with the use of the phrase "equally unjust." It sounds like false equivalence (unless I misread your comment). The western world largely is better than Russia in matters of freedom of speech/expression. Your comment then segues into conspiracy? Just to reiterate, I agree with the bulk of your comment, but I felt compelled to comment on your last paragraph.

scarmig 14y ago

There's a slight difference: Russia has nuclear weapons(1), a dictatorial autocrat, and a desire to be a world power. South Africa is an only slighty out-of-the-ordinary cesspool of corruption. Of course, all those other things you mentioned are, in isolation, much worse than these recent Russian affairs, and obviously the Western media takes a particular thrill in being putting on the mantle of courageous defender of human rights to condemn a geopolitical rival. But a bunch of workplace strikers being gunned down by an undisciplined police force isn't really indicative of much (as outrageous and terrible as it is), while Russia doubling down on shutting down internal dissent, despite international attention and condemnation, is very, very interesting and worthy of attention. (1) Yeah, yeah, South Africa stockpiled and proliferated a hundred nukes or so in preparation for a race war. Point still stands.

krickle 14y ago
Did you notice Guantanamo was also mentioned? I guess you are still right in that a dictatorial plutocracy is marginally better.
eps 14y ago
> a desire to be a world power With Russia being the primary energy supplier of Western Europe, you might want to think through the desire part a bit better.
- anovikov 14y ago
  It's not. Surprising fact, but Russian gas supply is 6.5% of primary energy in the EU, and Russian oil supply about as much. It is the largest supplier, but not dominant, and can be cut out quickly if needed. Only Slovakia is heavily dependent on Russian energy, the rest can do without in a few years if needed.
  - darkestkhan 14y ago
    Poland s also depending on Russian natural gas (primary source of natural gas in Poland)

true_religion 14y ago

Madonna is protesting her collegues---fellow artists being sent to prison on what she thinks are trumped up charges. Similarly HackerNews goes crazy anytime a developer is treated even the least bit badly by Apple or Google because they're in our In-Group, and its to our self benefit to protest. The plight of people a world away, who aren't like you.... well it doesn't touch the emotional buttons of many people.

rdtsc 14y ago

Read this book : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Poli... and you won't be surprised a bit. Western supposedly "free" media channels operate as expected according to the proposed model.

incosta 14y ago

So Madonna should now comment on anything going over the world? She been to Moscow and SPB, so she expressed what she was thinking about the case which is a significant issue in Russia. Good enough? Regarding the "vandalism" claim, you are wrong. The three girls have not touched a thing there. At most, they deserved to pay a fine (even according to Russian laws). I suggest you study the facts first before starting another of your ironic passages.

A1kmm 14y ago

> for what is basically vandalism by western standards Singing a song protesting the president and religion in a church is not vandalism, and in many countries would not be considered a crime at all.

eps 14y ago
Makes you wonder what would've happened to these Pussy Riot clowns should've they picked some Alabama church for their performance.
- daliusd 14y ago
  I'm not sure if it is fair comparison because there was no place for religion in Soviet Russia.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- ianb 14y ago
  Nothing? As far as I can tell they went into a church, a public church (though maybe under false pretenses) and performed while being filmed, against the wishes of the people there, and I'm guessing were asked to leave and did not do so. You could come up with crimes in the U.S. for what they did, but convictions wouldn't happen, and anything more than minor legal harassment is unlikely. And if some zealous prosecutor did put forth some effort the defense could and would be robust, and it would take a long time, and it would be very questionable what the outcome would be, with a wide variety of available defenses. The people who end up in jail over stuff that seems minor usually put forward a terrible defense. People do stuff like this all the time in the U.S. – this is performance art, and no more intrusive or offensive than typical performance art, and those people don't go to jail. And Alabama churches aren't some otherworldly place.
  - mladenkovacevic 14y ago
    You and I may understand it as performance art but next time you're feeling particularly creative, gather a few of your artsy chums, go into a Manhattan synagogue, put on Balaklavas over your faces and start to scream out profanities against Israel and capitalism. Then proceed to enjoy the hilarity as NYPD hauls you away and FBI puts you on a no-fly list. With both Moscow's and New York's experience with large-scale terrorist attacks I'm not surprised by how jumpy their citizens might be.

guelo 14y ago

I was wondering if the reason for all the media coverage was because of the slightly titilating name, the press just went crazy saying pussy because they had a legitimate reason to say it. But the political freedoms really are pretty bad in Russia so I'm OK with it being highlighted. Personally I have plenty of outrage to go around, im not going to run out.

mtw 14y ago

why South Africa or omahr khadr, we've had 20k dead in Syria in the past months. Tragedies also in Afghanistan.

1gor 14y ago

The organized and overblown reaction to all of this is much more about ruining Russia's reputation as a democratic nation than anything else. Because there is a political PR campaign going on aimed at shaping public opinion. Its political goals may be noble or may be not, but it feels a bit strange seeing it on HN. One of Russian Erlang mailing lists recently banned political spam on off-topic grounds. Alas, no such luck with HN.

jamesaguilar 14y ago

"As long as there's anything worse than X in the world, you're not allowed to worry about X?"

smsm42 14y ago

I don't get it. Each time somebody protests some injustice or evil happening somewhere, some people couldn't find anything better to do but chime in with "why you protest X but not Y? if you don't protest every single injustice I want you to protest, you must be a hypocrite!" Come on people, how it even makes sense to you? Who on earth could live up to this impossible standard of protesting every single injustice? It makes it only worse that your other demands of condemnations are full of factual inaccuracies - Omahr Khadr is sitting in Gitmo not for "something he might've been involved" but for, among other terrorist activities, murdering an American - Sergeant Christopher James Speer, to which he admitted and plead guilty. Pussy Riot had nothing to do with vandalism and weren't accused of vandalism. Western world is not "equally unjust" as nobody is imprisoned for 2 years for protesting the head of state. The press is not "ignoring" any of the issues you raised - Wikileaks revelations, Gitmo prisoners and other events are extensively discussed in the press and nobody is being imprisoned for doing so.

DominikR 14y ago
From the Wikipedia article on Pussy Riot: "Pussy Riot members Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Yekaterina Samutsevich participated in some Voina performances. Tolokonnikova was part of a performance in which a number of couples were filmed having sex in the Biology Museum in Moscow in 2008." You can easily find footage of them participating in this orgy. How would you handle such "protesters" that constantly show this kind of behaviour for many years? I guess they would be imprisoned in the US as well.
- smsm42 14y ago
  I would not "handle" them in any way. Why should I "handle" them? There are a lot of people having sex, some of them film that, so what? Who cares about it and how it is related to anything? If you think people that have sex or film it (provided, of course, we're talking about consenting adults) are imprisoned in the US, you obviously do not know much about US. In the US, to be imprisoned, one has to actually commit a crime and be judged and sentenced, and this happens in independent court which does not jump when the government says "jump!". So please do not guess, because your guess is wrong.

dchest 14y ago

That's a very interesting way of applying "children are starving in Africa"/appeal to worse problems argument.

pessimizer 14y ago

>Why isn't Madonna or these other outraged people protesting over the 32 miners killed in South Africa? I'm not sure if this is a serious question. They are musicians and entertainers, many with punk roots (Madonna was NY Downtown, which is close enough), some who have been attacked by governments for social statements in their works using "traumatized" members of the public as a proxy. Pussy Riot is a band. If you're not talking about Madonna, Sting, or any of the musicians that have been keeping this stuff in the news, who are you talking about? Me? It bugs me because the Church, an autocratic regime, and the Russian judicial system have merged to a point where they aren't even tolerating the existence of even trivial, fairly-vapid, middle-class, artsy dissent from a renewed nationalist program - and don't even have the shame to do it in secret, because they feel that enough of the public is behind them that they'll get away with it. That's scary, and doesn't bode well for the future. It certainly doesn't even get into the ballpark of bugging me as much as Guantanamo. Guantanamo is happening in my country, and is a trampling on of my rights, and my constitution. Why is it different from striking miners being murdered in South Africa? Because the striking miners weren't gunned down in a courtroom, after months of deliberation, with the support of the majority of the South African public, maybe? Maybe because the aggression of the state in support of capitol against striking workers is a known, and common evil? Maybe because the victims were black working men, not pretty middle-class white women involved in entertainment? Asking how people can be more concerned about one than the other at this moment seems intentionally obtuse. Some people don't care at all about Pussy Riot, some don't care at all about the miners, some care about both, some care about neither, but the range of completely different concerns raised by each of those situations could be enumerated all day without hint of exhaustion.