4 ms·

Yeah, is it really a good indicator if you need to work 20 hours overtime every week to make the median household income? That's just exploitation. We also ju

Yeah, is it really a good indicator if you need to work 20 hours overtime every week to make the median household income? That's just exploitation. We also just know that, blue or white, there is no raise structure in society anymore. You can't just do honest work or even be loyal and expect it to pay off financially.

credit_guy 2y ago
> or even be loyal What's loyalty got to do with this? I'm not "loyal" to my employer and I don't know anyone who is. If I find a job that pays better, and offers better conditions, I'll take it. Why would anyone do anything else, and why would anyone put any value on that?
- jimbob45 2y ago
  Tribal knowledge and company familiarity should justify the employer in offering raises to keep the employee around. Hiring someone new almost assuredly costs more in both the front-end and the back-end.
- squigz 2y ago
  GP is suggesting that the lack of loyalty nowadays is part of the issue.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Yes, loyalty is a two way street. If they aren't loyal to you, you're not getting any payoff by being loyal to them. Times have changed (IMO for the worse).
- rixed 2y ago
  I actually don't believe it. Most people work not only for the pay check but also for some concrete project they want to see completed (or a customer problem they want to see fixed, etc). Omo economicus is a very simplified theoretical model of only one aspect of work.
  - theamk 2y ago
    There are options other than "loyal to the company" or "always choose option which pays most" For example someone might like their co-workers, enjoy the projects they work on, and want to see the current product (that they have invested so many time into) succeed. But at the same time, they might not care about company itself at all. If the project got closed and co-workers left, they will move to a new company with no hesitation.
- joe_the_user 2y ago
  I don't believe in loyalty to an employer but I've had and seen numerous employers who said they valued loyalty. Those employers didn't pay for that loyalty and didn't deserve, yes. But that is the point of the GP. Ostensibly, employers once paid for loyalty by offering consistent raises. That is done now.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Thanks for agreeing with me. Older generations have a notion of "be loyal and reliable and you'll move up". The last few decades broke such a social contract. It probably deserved to be broken but the point overall is thst job progression isn't just a given built into most structures anymore. You gotta fight or bounce around and keep proving your worth.
imgabe 2y ago
Not everything that is hard or unpleasant is exploitation. 50% of jobs will pay below the median income. That's what median means. The existence of jobs paying below the median income is a mathematical certainty, not exploitation.
- rileymat2 2y ago
  That's fair, but if you want to frame a job as a "good" one, you'd expect to be on the other side of median.
  - imgabe 2y ago
    "Good" is always going to be relative. Is it good if your other option is to be a programmer? Probably not. Is it good if your other option is working retail for minimum wage? Yeah, then it's probably pretty good.
- 5123125 2y ago
  yeah but their point is 60+ hours workweek for a median income
  - imgabe 2y ago
    So it's a below median income job (as 50% of all jobs necessarily are) with the option to increase your income by working more. Still not exploitation. There are salaried employees making less who also work 60 hours a week and don't even get overtime (granted, their jobs are likely less physically demanding).
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I don't think you're understanding the long term implications of this, nor how expensive it is these days to simply live. People don't understand that soke areas can barely live on median income to begin with and that these aren't just "nice to have" hours, but needed to survive. I will call that exploitation. >There are salaried employees making less who also work 60 hours a week and don't even get overtime Those are called exempt jobs and they tend to start at 80k for that to qualify. I still don't like it but baby steps. If you're non-exempt and have unpaid overtime... How is that not exploitation?
somenameforme 2y ago
Median household income is household income, not personal income. Median personal income in the US for all people with an income is (as of 2022) $47,960. [1] For those in full time year-long employment, it's $60,070. And note because that is for all employed persons, that's including people with years of experience in their respective fields. Scoffing at $75k for a kid's first job out of high school is so completely out of touch with reality. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
- imtringued 2y ago
  HN comments are so out of touch with reality that you see people sneer at someone running a business in Russia that earns them $100k annual profit.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I'm "out of touch" for not accepting 1.5x overtime in order to have a median income? Meanwhile 60, 70+% is going off to rent. I don't care if someone compensated highly chooses that lifestyle, but not someone "average".
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      $70k isn't a median income, it's much more than it. Which is to say it's much more than 50% of full+ time American workers, with years of experience on average, earn. And overtime is typically time and a half. So somebody earning $50k and working 60 hour weeks would be earning $87,500 which would put them in the top quarter of all earners in the US [1], straight out of high school, and with 0 debt. You are right that doing this in the Bay Area would be unusual due to an unreasonable cost of living, but it's possible he's still living with his parents. If not, the great thing about the trade is that they're in high demand everywhere - including offshore where the pay skyrockets, especially for a welder who can get underwater work. Those gigs enable one to comfortably retire, if they want, a multi millionaire well before 40. But the interesting thing about trades is that people end up enjoying them. A friend works the rigs and makes a stupid amount of $$$ thanks to doing 2 on 2 off and spending his offtime in places like Thailand. So he's taking home a healthy 6 figures, gets 50% of the year off, and is having a total cost of living in the low thousands per year. He still has no intention of retiring though, even though he could live off simple interest alone at this point. It ends up being a lifestyle and not just a job. [1] - https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

credit_guy 2y ago

> or even be loyal What's loyalty got to do with this? I'm not "loyal" to my employer and I don't know anyone who is. If I find a job that pays better, and offers better conditions, I'll take it. Why would anyone do anything else, and why would anyone put any value on that?

jimbob45 2y ago
Tribal knowledge and company familiarity should justify the employer in offering raises to keep the employee around. Hiring someone new almost assuredly costs more in both the front-end and the back-end.
squigz 2y ago
GP is suggesting that the lack of loyalty nowadays is part of the issue.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Yes, loyalty is a two way street. If they aren't loyal to you, you're not getting any payoff by being loyal to them. Times have changed (IMO for the worse).
rixed 2y ago
I actually don't believe it. Most people work not only for the pay check but also for some concrete project they want to see completed (or a customer problem they want to see fixed, etc). Omo economicus is a very simplified theoretical model of only one aspect of work.
- theamk 2y ago
  There are options other than "loyal to the company" or "always choose option which pays most" For example someone might like their co-workers, enjoy the projects they work on, and want to see the current product (that they have invested so many time into) succeed. But at the same time, they might not care about company itself at all. If the project got closed and co-workers left, they will move to a new company with no hesitation.
joe_the_user 2y ago
I don't believe in loyalty to an employer but I've had and seen numerous employers who said they valued loyalty. Those employers didn't pay for that loyalty and didn't deserve, yes. But that is the point of the GP. Ostensibly, employers once paid for loyalty by offering consistent raises. That is done now.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
Thanks for agreeing with me. Older generations have a notion of "be loyal and reliable and you'll move up". The last few decades broke such a social contract. It probably deserved to be broken but the point overall is thst job progression isn't just a given built into most structures anymore. You gotta fight or bounce around and keep proving your worth.

imgabe 2y ago

Not everything that is hard or unpleasant is exploitation. 50% of jobs will pay below the median income. That's what median means. The existence of jobs paying below the median income is a mathematical certainty, not exploitation.

rileymat2 2y ago
That's fair, but if you want to frame a job as a "good" one, you'd expect to be on the other side of median.
- imgabe 2y ago
  "Good" is always going to be relative. Is it good if your other option is to be a programmer? Probably not. Is it good if your other option is working retail for minimum wage? Yeah, then it's probably pretty good.
5123125 2y ago
yeah but their point is 60+ hours workweek for a median income
- imgabe 2y ago
  So it's a below median income job (as 50% of all jobs necessarily are) with the option to increase your income by working more. Still not exploitation. There are salaried employees making less who also work 60 hours a week and don't even get overtime (granted, their jobs are likely less physically demanding).
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I don't think you're understanding the long term implications of this, nor how expensive it is these days to simply live. People don't understand that soke areas can barely live on median income to begin with and that these aren't just "nice to have" hours, but needed to survive. I will call that exploitation. >There are salaried employees making less who also work 60 hours a week and don't even get overtime Those are called exempt jobs and they tend to start at 80k for that to qualify. I still don't like it but baby steps. If you're non-exempt and have unpaid overtime... How is that not exploitation?

somenameforme 2y ago

Median household income is household income, not personal income. Median personal income in the US for all people with an income is (as of 2022) $47,960. [1] For those in full time year-long employment, it's $60,070. And note because that is for all employed persons, that's including people with years of experience in their respective fields. Scoffing at $75k for a kid's first job out of high school is so completely out of touch with reality. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

imtringued 2y ago
HN comments are so out of touch with reality that you see people sneer at someone running a business in Russia that earns them $100k annual profit.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I'm "out of touch" for not accepting 1.5x overtime in order to have a median income? Meanwhile 60, 70+% is going off to rent. I don't care if someone compensated highly chooses that lifestyle, but not someone "average".
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    $70k isn't a median income, it's much more than it. Which is to say it's much more than 50% of full+ time American workers, with years of experience on average, earn. And overtime is typically time and a half. So somebody earning $50k and working 60 hour weeks would be earning $87,500 which would put them in the top quarter of all earners in the US [1], straight out of high school, and with 0 debt. You are right that doing this in the Bay Area would be unusual due to an unreasonable cost of living, but it's possible he's still living with his parents. If not, the great thing about the trade is that they're in high demand everywhere - including offshore where the pay skyrockets, especially for a welder who can get underwater work. Those gigs enable one to comfortably retire, if they want, a multi millionaire well before 40. But the interesting thing about trades is that people end up enjoying them. A friend works the rigs and makes a stupid amount of $$$ thanks to doing 2 on 2 off and spending his offtime in places like Thailand. So he's taking home a healthy 6 figures, gets 50% of the year off, and is having a total cost of living in the low thousands per year. He still has no intention of retiring though, even though he could live off simple interest alone at this point. It ends up being a lifestyle and not just a job. [1] - https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/