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Vagus Nerve Stimulation Erases PTSD: Study
- PaulHoule 1y agoNot surprising, it's been conjectured for a long time that suppressing the physiological response would improve the effectiveness of PTSD therapy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK562942/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK562942/
- binarymax 1y agoMy friend’s startup is doing great stuff in this space to make a VNS device for consumers. https://zenbud.health/ https://zenbud.health/
- dark-star 1y agoDo these work the same as the professional/medical ones? A friend of mine had one during a study, and she claimed it worked by electrostimulation (small electric shocks), not ultrasonic waves? She wanted to buy one of those devices because they really helped her but the cost was upwards of 1500€, this would probably be within range for her, assuming it works the same way?
- m101010 1y agoThey promote their peer-reviewed clinical trial in the header area. However, the spelling mistake 'Tial' should be fixed asap :) Maybe you can tell him that and also tell him that I am quite interested in the device to check if it can reduce my heart palpitations!
- j45 1y agoNeat, sensate is another device in this area. Bio and neurofeedback devices are going to be an interesting space the next 10 years.
- ajb 1y agoI'm skeptical of these devices that say they are safe based on CE or FCC testing. (zenbud says it has been CE tested). That's consumer product testing, not health-device testing; I would like to see some evidence that long-term use of a nerve stimulation device causes no long term damage. I don't believe that CE or FCC tests show that. It's disingenuous to have a press release saying "Yay! We passed CE testing!" as if that was like FDA approval.
- deno 1y agoFWIW the EU also has EUDAMED registry for producers, distributors and importers of medical devices and there are additional regulations beyond CE under the MDR directive. I don't see "ZenBud" or "NeurGear" in the EUDAMED database. An ultrasonic device delivering energy to human tissue would be a class 2a or 2b active medical device under MDR.
- neves 1y agoJust 9 patients. :-(
- nativeit 1y agoIsn’t that fairly common for the first round of human testing for novel treatments like this? I could certainly understand wanting some small scale reassurance that a wider study won’t be throwing good money after bad.
- msabalau 1y agoAnd, as in study notes, to prioritize understanding safety with this population before worrying about efficacy.
- inglor_cz 1y agoIt is quite normal to start with small groups for economic reasons. If the first results look promising, you can scale up. If they are a wash, you haven't spent too much money on chasing yet another placebo.
- j45 1y agoAlso an opportunity to further design or evolve the study.
- jrsdav 1y agoNot just economic (although it definitely ties into it) -- finding an eligible patient population also another complicating dimension.
- cpncrunch 1y agoThe problem is that invasive novel treatments like this always have a large placebo effect, so not doing a placebo controlled trial is essentially a waste of time and money.
- nativeit 1y agoNot surprised, but the headline is pretty terrible. This is a very small, early stage experiment with promising results. The declarative statement-of-fact in the headline is just irresponsible clickbait. That said, the results are promising.
- amelius 1y agoWhy not use EMDR instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_a...
- j45 1y agoInstead of either/or why not try both?
- carabiner 1y agoNone of these treatments has a 100% success rate. You can try EMDR on Youtube and if it worked all the time, psychiatrists would be out of a job.
- apercu 1y agoNot all licensed therapists or psychiatrists provide EMDR. Or did you mean psychiatrists specifically as they prescribe ssri’s?
- 47282847 1y agoPsychiatrists oversee treatment and give medication. They don’t do psychotherapy, so they are not in the business of offering EMDR. Easily confused but very distinct jobs.
- apercu 1y agoMany psychiatrists only prescribe, some also do psychotherapy, and of those, some do EMDR. This is less common today than it used to be due to insurance and time and how they get paid, but some of those in private practice or academic settings still provide physiotherapy. Sorry, I should a put a source: partner is a therapist. Edit: autocorrect changed psychotherapy to physiotherapy.
- airbreather 1y agoYeah I said it was dhit when my ex-wife said she was going to do it, but it definitely did something. And I am well aware of the placebo effect. But just because something is not provable or falsifiable under current scientific knowledge, it does not mean it is neccesarily quackery, there's a Venn diagram there where some things may be effective. Automatically discarding something that even occasionally gets results, because it doesn't fit current "knowledge" is the height of arrogance.
- 0xWTF 1y agoLink to the actual abstract on PubMed: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40097094/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40097094/
- matthew_morgan 1y agoAnyone done VNS at home?
- Elle_Benjamin 1y agoYea, I have. I ordered one from vagus.net in February 2023. Over 6 months, it forcibly kicked me off a 20 year SSRI prescription. I've been using it now for about 2 years, weekly if not daily, and although I still regularly feel depressed about the world, I also feel my other feelings (which were blunted on those SSRIs). I no longer live in a state of fight/flight, though I'm quick to walk away when approached by strangers. Overall the tVNS has been lifesaving for me and my autistic-AFAB-CPTSD friends. (Autism by itself involves vagus dysfunction.)
- Elle_Benjamin 1y agoHere's more info: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/mr3yksv30dbynz4lk52jv/h?rlkey=0rlq1nhu2vqw5znixwawvslfq&st=sdlnlhai&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/mr3yksv30dbynz4lk52jv/h?rlkey...
- ferd 1y agoAny hope to treat tinnitus? :-\
- computerdork 1y agoThere with you:( ... and actually, scheduled to get that "Lenire" device in a couple of weeks. Hope works
- holovan 1y agoIt seems like a more effective bimodal stimulation device is winding its way through the FDA: https://www.reddit.com/r/tinnitus/comments/1d0it8b/comment/l5o40ys/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tinnitus/comments/1d0it8b/comment/l... The results are very promising, but it's sure taking its time getting approved.
- computerdork 1y agoWow, a big thanks on this! Will enroll on the device's email list, appreciated!!
- shutupnerd0000 1y agoThe Susan Shore device is open source via studies and publications and it's possible to build your own if you're desperate enough. DM me if you want exact hardware specs. I've gone down this road because I have severe tinnitus.
- computerdork 1y agoI'd be interested in getting your specs on the Susan Shore device! How can I DM you? (Doesn't seem like we can do this in Hacker News). If you'd like, you can email me at peterjoh.pub@gmail.com? It'd be much appreciated. Thanks!
- codr7 1y agoI realize some people had severe damage to their ears, but for the rest I would recommend having a look at Nada Yoga.
- pizza 1y agoI don’t think there is clinical level evidence for it, but there’s this thing called Trauma Releasing Exercise which apparently some people swear by. The idea is that you do extremely taxing, high neuromuscular-recruitment static holds etc - til the point of total muscle control loss that turns into widespread trembling. I would speculate that if a big part of feeling bad is getting stuck in a state where tension becomes a problematic passive default state that is hard to get out of, that a short, hard ‘nudge’ in the form of overwhelming exertion might be enough to ‘reset’. All speculation until proven though. What’s interesting about the origins of the technique is that the guy thought of the possibility that adults learn to suppress visible trauma reactions - uncontrolled shaking, etc - whereas children and animals wouldn’t, and for whatever reason they would also be able to return to normal more quickly. He wondered if maybe that there was a tangible benefit to the shaking itself, in that it could help perturb out of the traumatized state itself.
- pseudocomposer 1y agoIn the last few years I've definitely learned I get some sort of "release" from practicing/holding handstands and other hand/arm-balancing moves and, later, (less so, but with less weird looks from people) from yoga balances (tree, warrior 3, eagle, [revolved] half moon, dancer).
- computerdork 1y agoWow, this makes a lot of sense. Nothing like a super intense workout to relieve stress. I need a short one every night after a long day. Feels like it erases all the crap I went through during the day.
- goda90 1y ago> I don’t think there is clinical level evidence for it Even if it's 100% placebo, if it's not harmful, and it works for a person, then it works. But, determining if it's not harmful should be a priority. I found this person saying it made their life worse, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD_NSCommunity/comments/ungaew/tretrauma_releasing_exercises_ruined_my_life_i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD_NSCommunity/comments/ungaew/t...
- noisy_boy 1y agoVerbatim the theme of a few episodes of the medical drama "The Resident".
- ivape 1y agoI don't know how I feel about this. The nature of PTSD is that you have a true memory, that the event happened. Imagine if I tell you, 9/11 was real and it happened, but from now you will never feel any feeling about it. What exactly did we accomplish here? The bombings in Gaza are real, but from now on, you will feel nothing about it. You see? It reads like a dystopia. There's an obsession with erasing the past and not digesting it. The subconscious wants reconciliation, and it will emerge over and over, that's what PTSD is. Lobotomizing someone is certainly one way of reconciling it. The only way out is through imho, that you are forever changed and saw the face of mankind, and your subconscious will not accept any cheap reconciliation for the most part. "Just zap it", I sense the subconscious will not let you get away with that. You are custodian of the trauma.
- The_Amp_Walrus 1y agoyou're conflating "not having an overwhelming negative reaction to it" with "never feel anything about it" you can know something is bad and act accordingly without having a disordered and painful relationship with it
- ivape 1y agoBut you are supposed to have a painful relationship with it. You are never ever supposed to be at peace with it. It's who you become as the holder of that pain that provides any foundation. In a sense, "zapping it" limits your potential. A surrogate mother robs the mother of child-bearing (in all normal cases like Kim Kardashian, not for cases where the original mother cannot physically give birth). That's just a fact. The trauma event has already robbed them, why rob them twice? Most people will have no capacity to feel what you feel about it. You have the gift of feeling what is necessary to feel about that event. It's precious, and it needs to be nurtured. My utter contempt and sorrow for what I feel about certain things belongs in the world, as best as I can hold and steer it. No one can feel your pain, and if you zap it, then not even you can feel it. It's unloving to yourself and your experience.
- HighlandSpring 1y ago
- emremremr 1y agoEMDR by someone well-trained and experienced in doing that specifically for PTSD is something I’m more familiar with as a treatment. I think the trick with these treatments is that you need a good therapist with past experience helping people get through it. PTSD is not something you want to mess with if you don’t know what you’re doing as triggering could be dangerous.
- elcritch 1y agoI’m curious about those neck brace style “vagus nerve stimulators” you see on the internet. Anyone have experience with them? Are they legit or snake oil?
- ccppurcell 1y agon=9 here folks. I think the certainty in the headline is borderline irresponsible.