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The vocal effects of Daft Punk
- madeofpalk 1y agoMarc added some extra flavor https://mastodon.social/@marcedwards/114454783708869207 https://mastodon.social/@marcedwards/114454783708869207 > This article is the longest piece I’ve published on Bjango’s site, and it took a couple of years of research. I purchased around 25 pieces of music gear. I emailed Imogen Heap, and to my surprise, someone from her team got back to me and confirmed the exact harmonizer used on Hide and Seek. > It’s been a huge effort, and I’m confident it contains a lot of information that is not widely known. For those of you who are into Daft Punk, I hope it’s interesting.
- tecleandor 1y agoAh, the Sennheiser VSM201. Just a $30K vocoder. Seems like it was $25K when it released in 1977, but also didn't get to sell even 50 units, so quite rare. I guess you can get similar results with cheaper hardware, but if you have money and you have it around... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- LuciOfStars 1y agoIt's Daft Punk, are we really surpised? :-P
- marcedwards 1y agoI wonder how many are still in working condition today? Can’t be many. I’d love to see one in person, one day.
- ofrzeta 1y agoI didn't know the device. Also I didn't know that Kai Krause who later got famous through his Kai's Power Tools was an electronic music expert who sort of did sales for Sennheiser in 1977, according to this page (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennheiser_VSM_201 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennheiser_VSM_201 - only on the German WP, it seems). He also wrote the manual for it. His German WP page also claims that he sold a VSM 201 to Neil Young in 1982! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause English WP has less details on that part of his life, especially the VSM 201 :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause
- marcedwards 1y agoKai Krause wrote the VSM201 manual and helped sell it at Sennheiser?! You’re blowing my mind. I didn’t expect that info today.
- tecleandor 1y agoHa! Now that's unexpected!
- whstl 1y ago> His German WP page also claims that he sold a VSM 201 to Neil Young in 1982! Just in time for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_(album) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_(album) !!!
- ofrzeta 1y agoWow, six of nine tracks with the vocoder. I guess the 25k USD machine had to pay off :-)
- nonrandomstring 1y agoNever had the pleasure of a Sennheiser but when working in radio I got my hands on a lot of rack vocoders for doing branding, stings and idents. Funny how the number 9000 comes up a lot, like Roland VP9000 and Eventide H9000. 80 and 90s vintage ones like Korg VC-10 or Elektronik EM-26 had unique sounds, but tbh the modern digital recreations are amazing models. There's not a world of difference between vocoding, autotune, shifting, harmonising etc once you realise how all the fx are now based in FFT, convolution etc - just different variations on processing and control graphs - and so it's fun to create your own vocal effects in things like Max/MSP/PureData. Technically there's a distinction between "effects" and "processing" in terms of how much of the direct (parallel) signal is put through. Chers Believe is a yardstick for "effect", whereas a lot of what I hear with Daft Punk (and Air, Kraftwerk) is quite heavily processed as to disguise the original voice entirely - just letting a bit of top/sibilant through to define the stops and fricatives.
- marcedwards 1y agoDid you listen to the example audio in the video? Soft synths and digital emulation can be absolutely amazing these days, but the VSM201 and Ultimate VoIS are in their own league. It’d be pretty easy to pick them out from a blind test with other vocoders. Oh, it also might be of interest that the IVL algorithm isn’t FFT-based. I think their harmonizers sound better than the rest, so maybe FFT isn’t the best way to go.
- nonrandomstring 1y agoI thought it was phase synchronous overlap add, but I just checked and now I'm not so sure. Has anyone got more details?
- marcedwards 1y agoThat gives me something to research! I’ve only scratched the surface of IVL’s algorithm, but intend to look into it further.
- jschafer 1y ago
- speedgoose 1y agoThe article says that Daft Punk rented it. I was surprised about how much better the Sennheiser sounds compared to the others. From the audio comparison in the first YouTube video. I did expect minor variations in the harmonics but the differences are quite significant between the models. The other vocoder that sound almost as good is quite new and it seems to still be a prototype with a "contact us" price.
- marcedwards 1y agoYep! The Sennheiser and Ultimate VoIS are in their own league. There are some other rare high-end analogue vocoders that I would have loved to include in the comparison, but I don’t know anyone who owns them. The EMS vocoders are supposed to be amazing, too. I can’t speak on Dromedary Modular’s behalf and I think rising parts costs have been an issue, but buying an Ultimate VoIS should be a fair bit cheaper than the Moog vocoder.
- bibinou 1y agoThomas Bangalter's father was a French disco producer and songwriter who helped them a lot in their early career. Sure helps.
- rickdeckard 1y agoThey used the VSM-201 for "Random Access Memories", their last Studio Album. At that time they didn't need such help anymore, they famously rented a huge amount of equipment and large studio-floors (i.e. they recorded simultaneously with microphones from different decades because Thomas heard a difference and wanted this reflected on the record). Above all, the biggest help from his father was probably to insist that they keep the ownership of their music when signing with any label, regardless of any money, because as a producer he knew that this is how artists get screwed by record labels.
- marcedwards 1y agoYeah, owning their masters was a very smart move. I was surprised they rented the Sennheiser instead of buying one. Having said that, they don’t come up for sale very often.
- LuciOfStars 1y ago[flagged]
- marcedwards 1y agoSurf it, scroll it, pause it, click it
- jorge_leria 1y agoSame!
- Isamu 1y agoThis is a really great deep dive, I wish I could upvote more to reward this kind of quality work.
- marcedwards 1y agoThank you! Your kind comment helps. :)
- amelius 1y agoReading the title I thought this was about extraordinary singing techniques. But nice article anyway.
- jedimastert 1y agoIt is unreal to me the amount of impact Daft Punk had with only four studio albums.
- trollied 1y agoWas lucky enough to see them live at a small venue in Manchester in the 90s when I was at University. Epic times.
- marcedwards 1y agoAwesome! That would have been so good. I saw them just once — the Alive 2007 tour. Was a great day.
- marcedwards 1y agoAbsolutely. Hopefully there’s at least one more.
- ukuina 1y agoHow can this be?
- marcedwards 1y agoThere’s rumours they’re working on more material. I wouldn’t blame them for telling the world they’ve broken up, just to take the pressure off. I can live in hope, right?
- colecut 1y agoAt least if they don't produce another album, we still get to see them perform at Burning Man this year, out by the trash fence
- ilinx 1y agoI mean, they’re retired, and I’m not holding out hope. But it’s remarkable that 30 years after their debut Daft Punk could put out an album and probably be as innovative and relevant as ever. That’s such a rare quality.
- smjburton 1y agoVery cool OP listening to the original samples compared against the different harmonizers and vocoders. The Sennheiser VSM201 sounds so clean, I really like the analogue sound. The TC Helicon Talkbox Synth also sounds nice. For the harmonizers, the Digitech Studio Vocalist EX sounds the best to me, but I also like the Korg ih Interactive Vocal Harmony for its spacey vocal effects.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- brudgers 1y agoIf you have a vocoder, running a drum machine through the modulator won't sound all that much like daft punk, but will probably sound familiar. And maybe become part of your sound. If you don't have a vocoder, Behringer recently released one as a Eurorack module for $99. It's fine.
- marcedwards 1y agoDid you buy one? I think it’s very likely I’ll get a VC16, but they’re not in stock anywhere I purchase from yet.
- brudgers 1y agoYes. Still in stock on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/335903639694 https://www.ebay.com/itm/335903639694
- marcedwards 1y agoAh, cheers! I’m in Australia, and it seems like Alto won’t ship here. I’m sure they’ll appear on a store that does ship to me soon.
- nprateem 1y agoAny good software vocoders out there?
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- _DeadFred_ 1y agoI really like Arturia's though it is a bit finicky, a CPU hog, and takes some post processing to clean up.
- marcedwards 1y agoI feel like that’s a theme for Arturia’s plugins. I have their 1176 compressor and some other stuff. They’re nice, but use tons of CPU and can be a bit flaky at times.
- _DeadFred_ 1y agoFor stuff that doesn't need sidechain I run it in AudioGridder and that resolves the issue but the vocoder needs sidechain.
- an_aparallel 1y agoFl studios "vocodex" is likely the most advanced vocoder there is. 128 bands, band redistribution, ability to further route using patcher, just look at its manual to see :) Though its shrouded by the standard "FL is for rap dumb dumb" stigma. Marketing is one hell of a drug.
- marcedwards 1y agoThanks! I’ll give it a listen. Number of bands doesn’t necessarily dictate the quality of results — the Electro-Harmonix V256 has 256 bands, and it’s not even in the top 5 out of the vocoders I tested, imo.
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- gen3 1y agoOutstanding article, don't skip the youtube videos!
- marcedwards 1y agoThank you!
- brianstorms 1y agoI love, no luuuurrve, this article. Just fantastic research and fantastically useful for a music project I'm workin' on.
- marcedwards 1y agoThank you! What are you working on? Sounds interesting.
- _DeadFred_ 1y agoTangentially related if you make music in the box and want some simple Daft Punk breakdowns to experiment from: https://reverbmachine.com/blog/daft-punk-homework-synth-sounds/ https://reverbmachine.com/blog/daft-punk-homework-synth-soun... https://reverbmachine.com/blog/daft-punk-discovery-synth-sounds/ https://reverbmachine.com/blog/daft-punk-discovery-synth-sou...
- roblh 1y agoTangentially related; here's a great example of the classic daft punk vocal synth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mXLNnZvGJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mXLNnZvGJw
- nickisnoble 1y agoBut... Skala?!
- marcedwards 1y agoWe’re working hard on it! It’s going to be good. There’s some more info on this page: https://bjango.com/mac/skala/ https://bjango.com/mac/skala/ Thanks. :)
- xavriley 1y agoI went down a similar rabbit hole at the start of my PhD and I wish I’d written more of it up. One of my theories is that they combined effects quite often. For example, “harder better faster stronger” seems more likely to be a talk box recorded for a single note, then looped, then run through an AutoTune rack unit with MIDI inputs to repitch it. I mention this a little bit in a talk I have at ADC 2022 https://youtu.be/uX-FVtQT0PQ?feature=shared https://youtu.be/uX-FVtQT0PQ?feature=shared
- marcedwards 1y agoThanks for the talk link! I’m going to try writing some harmonizer code next, so your video is right up my alley. I believe IVL’s algorithm also isn’t FFT-based. That makes sense, given the CPU power around on consumer tech at the time. As for Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger: It’s difficult to know for sure without comments from Daft Punk themselves, but the DigiTech Talker has such a unique, throaty sound, and it’s all over the Human After All album. My confidence varies with my guesses, but Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger is one of the more confident ones, given how distinctive the Talker is. They also used so much DigiTech gear, especially on that album. Hopefully they’ll see the article and let me know which bits are wrong.
- debrisapron 1y agoI was a bit surprised by this article as it actually contradicts the account I always heard, which was their main vocal effect was a Roland VP-9000. If you listen to e.g. Harder Faster the effect is somewhere in between a vocoder & autotune, so I assumed that was the VP-9000. That said, this guy has clearly done his homework (pun intended) so I'm inclined to accept his version of events.
- marcedwards 1y agoYep, I’ve read that as well. The workflow and sound of the VP-9000 make me think it’s not what they used. It’s just so cumbersome to use, and it sounds pretty bad, and to my ears doesn’t match the results. The covers using DigiTech Vocalist EX models match so, so closely to the original songs. It’s hard to know without an official word from our favourite robots, but I think you’d struggle to get the sound of any Daft Punk song out of a VP-9000. I’m really not sure where that rumour started. I almost bought a VP-9000 to test, but sonically it’s so far off, I didn’t bother.
- pea 1y agoObligatory post of the legendary Bode Vocoder demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc-bhOOLxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc-bhOOLxE
- marcedwards 1y agoYes! Not sure how many times I’ve watched that, but I will watch it at least once every time someone posts it.
- simonebrunozzi 1y agoSpeaking of Daft Punk: I have been so intrigued by their decision to never show their faces, and always use masks. Anyone here has any good article, or explanation, or theory, of why is that the case?