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Why does Switzerland have so many bunkers?
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- KingOfCoders 2y agoFounded in the idea to make it too expensive for Nazi Germany to invade. But in the end it was more successful to just trade with Nazi Germany, buy stolen Jewish gold and stolen gold from occupied countries, send back Jews to be killed, deliver raw material for arms and sell weapons to the Nazis to not be invaded. [Edit] Sorry, thought this was well known. * NYT / "The (Not So) Neutrals of World War II" > https://archive.is/kogL7#selection-275.0-275.37 https://archive.is/kogL7#selection-275.0-275.37 * "For reasons that are still uncertain, Hitler never ordered the invasion. One theory is that a neutral Switzerland would have been useful to hide Nazi gold and to serve as a refuge for war criminals in case of defeat" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum * "In 1998, a Swiss commission estimated that the Swiss National Bank held $440 million (equivalent to $8.5 billion in 2024) of Nazi gold, over half of which is believed to have been looted." > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold * "Switzerland laundered hundreds of millions of dollars in stolen assets, including gold taken from the central banks of German-occupied Europe" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany#British,_Swiss,_US,_Argentinian_and_Canadian_banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_collaboration_with_Na... * "The Boat Is Full" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_Is_Full https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_Is_Full * "Seven studies released on Friday by the Independent Commission of Experts (ICE) show that the lion’s share of Swiss munitions exports went to the Axis powers." > https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/banking-fintech/swiss-supplied-arms-to-nazi-war-machine/2613736 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/banking-fintech/swiss-supplied-... * "The studies found evidence that the Swiss authorities only superficially inspected goods traffic transiting through Switzerland allowing the Nazis to transfer essential products, possibly even war material, from Germany to Italy and north Africa." > https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/banking-fintech/wartime-probe-reveals-extent-of-swiss-links-with-nazi-germany/2217172 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/banking-fintech/wartime-probe-r...
- Physkal 2y agoWith such large accusations I was honestly expecting sources.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- atoav 2y agohttps://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweiz_im_Zweiten_Weltkrieg https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweiz_im_Zweiten_Weltkrieg In German. As someone from the region: I also have read this a few times in different sources over my life, with no controversy about it at all. This is pretty much how it is written in the history books and it also makes sense.
- Physkal 2y agoThank you for the link. I'm learning.
- Mayora13 2y ago[dead]
- willy_k 2y agoI’m as much a fan of thoughtless AI forwarding as the next HNer, but this seems like a fair situation for it: https://chatgpt.com/share/68199e8e-5ad4-8012-8026-09fa353b6070 https://chatgpt.com/share/68199e8e-5ad4-8012-8026-09fa353b60...
- behringer 2y agoChat gpt is known to make up citations and quotes. You shouldn't reference it unless you've checked every one for accuracy.
- willy_k 2y agoo3 is known to use web search to reference documents directly and be perhaps a bit overly diligent when it comes to double checking itself. Of course it can still make mistakes, but for something like this that’s a lot less likely than with 4o. Besides, I didn’t reference it, I just shared the results of a query as a third party to the thread (who decided to take as much time checking the claims as the two comments above me). Although it seems that the info is all coming from Wikipedia anyway so I might as well have shared that.
- NaOH 2y agoRelated: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25331474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25331474 - Dec 2020 (119 comments) The forgotten underground world of Swiss bunkers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12430234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12430234 - Sept 2016 (50 comments)
- intellectronica 2y agoAnd why does it have so many bankers?
- ithkuil 2y agoSwiss bankers live within a levenshtein distance of 1 from a bunker
- iamflimflam1 2y agoUnderrated comment.
- throwanem 2y agoOnly Swiss bunkers, though.
- yard2010 2y agoThat's bonkers.
- durkie 2y agoThis is mentioned in the John McPhee book referenced elsewhere in the thread, because there is actually an answer: when the cantons stopped fighting and Switzerland/Helvetica Confederation was formed, the Swiss finance/banking system developed to handle all the money being brought in by those folks acting as mercenaries and being paid to fight other people’s wars.
- cowfarts 2y ago[dead]
- jeffrallen 2y agoGermany, Austria, Italy and France: With friends like these who needs enemies? :)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aredox 2y agoAnd yet it is the Swiss who waged wars in all these countries - as mercenaries. The last two wars between the Swiss and their neighbours were in 1531 and during Napoleon - who in the end admired the Swiss confederacy and helped rebirth it in its modern form.
- lazide 2y agoBeing the source of mercenaries is literally the opposite of waging war as the country. That they weren’t waging war does result in excess men who someone else can pay to wage war for them though.
- euroderf 2y agoYoung men with nothing to do, no gainful employment, are the curse of many a nation. Civil unrest. Mercenaries outsource the problem.
- aredox 2y ago>Being the source of mercenaries is literally the opposite of waging war as the country. Patently wrong: Swiss Neutrality explicitely bans mercenary work by any Swiss citizen.
- lazide 2y agoMaybe in the modern era, specifically since 1848, but [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries]. “The young men who went off to fight, and sometimes die, in foreign service had several incentives—limited economic options in the still largely rural cantons; adventure; pride in the reputation of the Swiss as soldiers; and finally what military historian Sir Charles Oman describes as a pure love of combat and warfighting in and of itself, forged by two centuries of conflict.” Either way, being a mercenary is explicitly the opposite of ‘fighting for your country’, which is the point I was making.
- fasouto 2y agoThis is a bit random, but when I was an intern at CERN I spent a summer living in an old civil defense bunker near Geneva. Short-term accommodation was notoriously expensive for students back then (probably even worse now), and I didn't hesitate when they offered me this unconventional housing opportunity. The bunker had a decontamination zone, air filtering system, massive concrete doors, a large communal kitchen, and numerous small bunk beds. It was adequate for short-term use, but we encountered two main issues: - It's remarkably easy to lose track of time without natural light cues - Even with the air filering system wet clothes wouldn't dry properly inside
- bschne 2y agoI'm in civil protection service in Switzerland and occasionally spend a few days at a time in one of these doing basically office work or running refresher courses etc., definitely agree on the losing track of time thing --- can't count the number of times I've come up at 4--5pm and been extremely surprised by how light or dark, sunny or rainy it was
- amelius 2y agoOf course there's a technical solution: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43497394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43497394
- smolder 2y agoEveryone seems to go for LEDs to simulate outdoor lighting for this kind of purpose, when there is another way that seems much more elegant to me: fiber-optic solar lighting. https://www.shieldenchannel.com/blogs/solar-panels/fiber-optic-solar-lighting https://www.shieldenchannel.com/blogs/solar-panels/fiber-opt...
- amelius 2y agoIndeed more elegant, but also more pricey. The LED solution was $1000, which could still be affordable for a student living in a bunker. It's also easier to install, especially if you don't own the place and cannot run thick fiber bundles through the walls.
- sschueller 2y agoI recently found out there in a command bunker (K85) smack in the middle of Stadelhofen, Zürich. It was only declassified in 2009. The primary access is via the tunnel. The 30m shaft was originally used while constructing the tunnel but was never filled in and turned into the bunker. It went into operation in 1989 and closed in 2009 but is still used as an emergency tunnel exist in case of a fire etc. [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@mikealpharomeotangoindia/video/7496041598438952214 https://www.tiktok.com/@mikealpharomeotangoindia/video/74960... (in Swiss German)
- LooerCell 2y agoIf you want to read more about the topic and about the readiness of the Swiss army, I can recommend a short book by John McPhee called La Place de la Concorde Suisse
- Antony90807 2y ago[dead]
- bilekas 2y agoFun fact, Finland also has a lot of bunkers, for more obvious reasons, enough I believe to host their whole population. The TLDR : they are obliged to have bunkers for a given population in an area thanks to Russian military aggression over the years. > Finland has around 50,500 civil defence shelters with space for about 4.8 million people https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/1410869/finland-has-civil-defence-shelters-for-about-4.8-million-people#:~:text=Ministry%20of%20the%20Interior's%20report,for%20about%204.8%20million%20people&text=Finland%20has%20around%2050%2C500%20civil,for%20about%204.8%20million%20people. https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/1410869/finland-has-civil-def...
- PicassoCTs 2y agoIts the hood that maketh the bunker a good idea..
- cowfarts 2y ago[dead]
- diggan 2y agoSimilarly, my home country Sweden also has a bunch of civil defense shelters, built during the cold war if I remember correctly, as we've been scared of the Russians for a long time too. > There are around 64,000 civil defence shelters in Sweden, with space for around seven million people. Shelters can be found in various types of buildings, such as residential and industrial properties, and are marked with a special sign. In peacetime, a civil defence shelter can be used for other purposes. https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/civil-defence-shelters-evacuation-and-warning-systems/good-to-know-about-civil-defence-shelters/ https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/civil-defence-s... Anyone growing up in Sweden would recognize these orange/blue triangles indicating a shelter, and the large metal doors in your apartment-building cellar, where you store old shit you no longer use.
- t1E9mE7JTRjf 2y agoWait until you see Albania.
- surfingdino 2y ago"Concrete military bunkers are a ubiquitous sight in Albania, with an average of 5.7 bunkers for every square kilometer (14.7 per square mile)." source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania
- CTDOCodebases 2y agoFor anyone interested this the bunkers and their history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bPIaHg11mI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bPIaHg11mI
- MartinGAugustin 2y ago[dead]
- eternaut 2y agoBecause they are a rough state, with a banking system needed by organised crime as well as dictators, warlords etc. All those bunkers because they rightfully fear to get pay back for centuries of being the "Schurkenstaat" that they are. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- palmotea 2y agoI envy these European countries, who can manage to do things collectively that make sense to do collectively. Vs. America, which is all just "hooray individualism: you're all on your own."
- mlinhares 2y agoThere are places where it happens in America, its just very hard to do that in such a large country without leaders that want to make it happen. Its much more profitable for politicians to have a population that doesn't want to work together and keeps fighting each other for transgender rights when they can't make ends meet and are one step away from being homeless. I think the last chance we had for a politician that was somewhat visionary was with the first Obama term but he was too entrenched in the politics to actually drive any real change, with all that bipartisanship bullshit. Now they will just continue to invest in driving a wedge between the population to prevent them from noticing they're in a class war.
- amiga386 2y agoAnother way to look at it is through the lens of nationalism. Other countries, which have formed around nations (which are groups of people with a collective identity), have an inherent need to care for "their" people. Slovakia is 83.8% Slovak. Portugal is 87.8% Portuguese. Poland is 98.8% Polish. [*] America is a country of immigrants. Apart from the brutally oppressed indigenous population, everyone is from somewhere else. Hence the Americans' obsession with heritage (the Italian-Americans, the Irish-Americans, the Black Americans, etc.), and even grouping as blocs based on their ancestry - it is because they don't see themselves as being an American nation? [*] This can be a problem in its own right, e.g. the ethnic cleansing of the Bosnians by Serbians, the players in the Balkan war each wanted "their" people on "their" side of the border, and murdered or displaced others to make it so. Also, to be fair, a number of European countries no longer collect nationality/ethnicity, including the Swiss, possibly because they don't want such maps to exist for any future nationalists to make use of.
- mlinhares 2y ago
- Synaesthesia 2y agoDuring this Russo-Ukrainian war I was astonished that civilians will emerge from bunkers after some really intense fighting in a city, like Avdiivka or Bakhmut, fights where the entire city was leveled. I didn't think anyone could survive in there. Turns out not only were Soviet structures all reinforced and even able to survive nuclear blasts, but they also have bomb bunkers underground.
- Tade0 2y agoSubway stations all over the eastern block were built to serve as bomb shelters when needed. Nowadays this is used mainly during heavy rains, as the gates are watertight: https://bi.im-g.pl/im/0/9990/z9990270IHG,W-srode-Jarek-Kowalczyk-przyslal-nam-zdjecie-zalan.jpg https://bi.im-g.pl/im/0/9990/z9990270IHG,W-srode-Jarek-Kowal... When this picture was taken the trains would skip this station, but were otherwise functioning as normal.
- jmyeet 2y ago[flagged]
- jsbg 2y agoI read the interesting linked article about bunkers in Switzerland and it totally went over my head that it was all about US foreign policy in Ukraine.
- lesuorac 2y ago[flagged]
- senderista 2y agoWell the Donbas front line (e.g. Avdiivka) was one of the most fortified places on earth and it didn't stop Russia from eventually steamrolling it (although at great cost).
- Duwensatzaj 2y ago> Having NATO on the border with Russia is a recipe for disaster. With Finland having joined NATO in 2023 there is a land border with Russia, so… But yes, as you touch on later land invasion through Ukraine is far more a threat to Russia than invasion through Finland.
- ceejayoz 2y agoEstonia and Latvia already had a land border with Russia before Finland's joining. And Lithuania/Poland, if you count Kalingrad.
- twodave 2y agoHow is it the fault of the US that Ukraine has no defensive army? Having hope (but not a promise, just the support of an outgoing(!!) president) of one day being able to join NATO is not the same as being invited. They took a risk and it didn’t work out as I see it. It seems most of the world a) wants the US to stop meddling but also b) blame them for whatever is broken abroad due to their inaction.
- putpoointheloo 2y ago[flagged]
- stuff4ben 2y agoThis is my reminder to add to my family's emergency stockpile for the month. Probably should do some rotating of my stock too.
- kjkjadksj 2y agoIsn’t the move to never rotate stock? You’d probably be happy with that 10 year expired can of beans if you were reduced to just that in your resource war scenario.
- Fairburn 2y agoRussia. Thats the answer.
- fsckboy 1y ago>FTA: Switzerland, population nearly 9 million, has more bunkers per capita than anywhere else in the world — enough to guarantee shelter space to every single resident in the event of a crisis. (Sweden and Finland are a close second, covering all major cities.) well, using the 1-based index as they have chosen above, and as a good C programmer preferring 0-based indexes, I'll have to put Israel as number 0 on the above list. In the Israeli building codes, every home (i.e. every apartment too) has to have a bomb shelter, and as a result, they all do. quibble: they are not necessarily "underground" depending on your definition of bunker, bomb shelter, etc; so for example they are contained within apartments, a bit like a "panic room", or really exactly like one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkhav_Mugan#Types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkhav_Mugan#Types ---- quibble 2, entirely different subject but while I'm here, what "everybody" calls a "sand trap" in golf is not called a "sand trap", it's called "a bunker" in golf.