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The courts have so far been exceptionally weak. Hey, you're not allowed to send those people on the plane! The plane already left even though I told you not to

The courts have so far been exceptionally weak. Hey, you're not allowed to send those people on the plane! The plane already left even though I told you not to send it? Well, you gotta get them back! You're not sending them back? I'll just keep telling you that you have to do it, that'll really show you! Oh, pretty please, would you return that man you illegally sent to that torture prison? No? Oh, ok, well would you at least just talk to me about it in daily reports? No? Oh, ok. I guess he'll just die there. Oh well.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
The courts have successfully enjoined a large number of actions, required the release of many people from domestic ICE custody, and ended the transfer of anyone new to El Salvador. As I'm always reminding people, the news is a highly optimized machine to deliver you the worst thing that happened today - if you're reading it as though it's a representative sample of everything that's happening, you're going to get a misleading perspective.
- vel0city 2y ago
  So, is Abrego Garcia back in the US and actually having a real trial? What of the other 200+ people who were illegally taken? Still there despite many court orders to return them? The courts have asked for those people to be released from ICE custody, they haven't complied with a lot of those requests. The courts have asked for them to stop abducting people off the streets without cause but they continue doing it. Its not a misleading perspective when it's the actual facts and reality. You're acting like well he only send a few hundred people to a torture prison so far, no big deal I guess. He's only deporting some US citizens without due process. He's only arguing having court cases for some crimes is too cumbersome so we should ignore due process for those crimes. When will they end up charging you with a crime that's too cumbersome to prove in court and thus you no longer get due process? When your imprisonment gets publicized for how terrible it is, will you also be happy to have people shrug off that reporting as a "misleading perspective"? Every one of those things should be klaxons sounding in the streets. We'll see if there really aren't any more transfers to El Salvador.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    The misleading perspective is your generalization from things that have happened to things that haven’t happened. The system as it currently exists - overzealous immigration enforcement which is often but not always enjoined - cannot ship me to El Salvador. It’s true that there’s a big danger of someone building a different system that could change that! Preventing that from happening is the key political challenge of today. But effective prevention requires accurate reasoning about which components of society can do what. One of the best ways to ensure there are more transfers to El Salvador is to spread the narrative that courts are powerless and nobody can stop the administration from doing it.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > The system as it currently exists - overzealous immigration enforcement which is often but not always enjoined - cannot ship me to El Salvador These people had no due process. If you have no due process, you too could be sent there. You'll argue, I'll just show them I'm a citizen. Who are you showing it to? Who are you proving it to? Who goes to review that? Which court reviewed these people's legal status? Which court reviewed the crimes Abrego Garcia was guilty of? Which court will review your case while you're already on the plane before you can even contact a lawyer? Many of these people have lawful status in the US. They had their lawful status rescinded without due process and were trafficked out of the country without due process. Thinking "that can't happen to me!" is lemming ideology. US citizens are already being removed from this country without due process despite having due process rights. And you're suggesting I shouldn't talk about it. That me talking about it ensures the next planes leave somehow. > One of the best ways to ensure there are more transfers to El Salvador is to spread the narrative that courts are powerless and nobody can stop the administration from doing it It has already been proven the courts are powerless to prevent it -- its already happened! The court told them to stop, the executive branch went ahead anyways, the court said to bring them back, and yet they're still there. Me pointing this out isn't ensuring those planes continue, Trump and his administration remaining in office ensures those planes continue. Other than your theoretical arrest and expulsion from the country everything I've stated has already happened and is continuing to happen despite what the courts have said. After the first plane that was told it wasn't allowed to leave left and was doubly and triply clarified these planes aren't supposed to go, another plane left. Despite what the courts said. You really think the court opinions are what's holding up the next plane? Why didn't it stop those other planes? And why would Trump stop? What, he's going to be impeached? As if that hasn't happened before. Congress isn't going to remove him despite him continually breaking the law.
jimbokun 2y ago
What the fuck are they supposed to do? They don't have their own independent military and police force. Constitutions, laws, democracies are a fragile illusion that disappear the second enough people stop believing that they're real.
- vel0city 2y ago
  That's my point. People looking to the idea that the courts are going to somehow save this descent into tyranny aren't paying attention.
- spacemadness 2y ago
  That’s the point they are making.
Aloisius 2y ago
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.
- int_19h 2y ago
  Yeah, that's what they said during Trump's first term. And after January, 6. They do until they don't.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago

The courts have successfully enjoined a large number of actions, required the release of many people from domestic ICE custody, and ended the transfer of anyone new to El Salvador. As I'm always reminding people, the news is a highly optimized machine to deliver you the worst thing that happened today - if you're reading it as though it's a representative sample of everything that's happening, you're going to get a misleading perspective.

vel0city 2y ago
So, is Abrego Garcia back in the US and actually having a real trial? What of the other 200+ people who were illegally taken? Still there despite many court orders to return them? The courts have asked for those people to be released from ICE custody, they haven't complied with a lot of those requests. The courts have asked for them to stop abducting people off the streets without cause but they continue doing it. Its not a misleading perspective when it's the actual facts and reality. You're acting like well he only send a few hundred people to a torture prison so far, no big deal I guess. He's only deporting some US citizens without due process. He's only arguing having court cases for some crimes is too cumbersome so we should ignore due process for those crimes. When will they end up charging you with a crime that's too cumbersome to prove in court and thus you no longer get due process? When your imprisonment gets publicized for how terrible it is, will you also be happy to have people shrug off that reporting as a "misleading perspective"? Every one of those things should be klaxons sounding in the streets. We'll see if there really aren't any more transfers to El Salvador.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  The misleading perspective is your generalization from things that have happened to things that haven’t happened. The system as it currently exists - overzealous immigration enforcement which is often but not always enjoined - cannot ship me to El Salvador. It’s true that there’s a big danger of someone building a different system that could change that! Preventing that from happening is the key political challenge of today. But effective prevention requires accurate reasoning about which components of society can do what. One of the best ways to ensure there are more transfers to El Salvador is to spread the narrative that courts are powerless and nobody can stop the administration from doing it.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > The system as it currently exists - overzealous immigration enforcement which is often but not always enjoined - cannot ship me to El Salvador These people had no due process. If you have no due process, you too could be sent there. You'll argue, I'll just show them I'm a citizen. Who are you showing it to? Who are you proving it to? Who goes to review that? Which court reviewed these people's legal status? Which court reviewed the crimes Abrego Garcia was guilty of? Which court will review your case while you're already on the plane before you can even contact a lawyer? Many of these people have lawful status in the US. They had their lawful status rescinded without due process and were trafficked out of the country without due process. Thinking "that can't happen to me!" is lemming ideology. US citizens are already being removed from this country without due process despite having due process rights. And you're suggesting I shouldn't talk about it. That me talking about it ensures the next planes leave somehow. > One of the best ways to ensure there are more transfers to El Salvador is to spread the narrative that courts are powerless and nobody can stop the administration from doing it It has already been proven the courts are powerless to prevent it -- its already happened! The court told them to stop, the executive branch went ahead anyways, the court said to bring them back, and yet they're still there. Me pointing this out isn't ensuring those planes continue, Trump and his administration remaining in office ensures those planes continue. Other than your theoretical arrest and expulsion from the country everything I've stated has already happened and is continuing to happen despite what the courts have said. After the first plane that was told it wasn't allowed to leave left and was doubly and triply clarified these planes aren't supposed to go, another plane left. Despite what the courts said. You really think the court opinions are what's holding up the next plane? Why didn't it stop those other planes? And why would Trump stop? What, he's going to be impeached? As if that hasn't happened before. Congress isn't going to remove him despite him continually breaking the law.

jimbokun 2y ago

What the fuck are they supposed to do? They don't have their own independent military and police force. Constitutions, laws, democracies are a fragile illusion that disappear the second enough people stop believing that they're real.

vel0city 2y ago
That's my point. People looking to the idea that the courts are going to somehow save this descent into tyranny aren't paying attention.
spacemadness 2y ago
That’s the point they are making.

Aloisius 2y ago

The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.

int_19h 2y ago
Yeah, that's what they said during Trump's first term. And after January, 6. They do until they don't.