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Toyota has been way, way behind on electrification. I suspect they’ve been Innovator’s Dilemma’d are are in a death spiral that they haven’t even noticed yet
by jes5199 1y ago
Toyota has been way, way behind on electrification. I suspect they’ve been Innovator’s Dilemma’d are are in a death spiral that they haven’t even noticed yet
- dekhn 1y agoToyota makes hybrids that are excellent. I don't think they want to go full EV.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoThey can pretend that hybrids are enough but many markets are going full EV regardless while Toyota only has a half baked solution.
- thehappypm 1y agoNot everyone wants an EV, especially in America. Unless EV’s can jump to 500 mile range and ubiquitous five minute charging, a lot of people are just gonna want a hybrid.
- throwaway48476 1y agoI want a range extended EV with a easily removable power pack. Unfortunately the EPA doesn't consider it an EV so no one will make one because there's no tax credit.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoMy dream is a little trailer gas generator. Give you infinite range for longer trips. Day to day, just leave it disconnected.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoIsn’t that the BMW i3 range extender?
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoThat does not seem bad! I was imagining something more generic, literally a mini trailer with a generator bolted on top, but this is sleek.
- throwaway48476 1y agoThe motorcycle engine doesn't produce enough power so it can only do 40mph when the battery is dead.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoThat is less than ideal. Definitely does not fit my detachable range extender vision.
- throwaway48476 1y agoIn the US the BMW i3 range extender gas tank is software limited so the gas range is shorter than the ev range. That's the only way they could get it to qualify as an ev.
- floxy 1y agoPlug in hybrids are eligible for the U.S. Federal $7,500 tax credit if they meet the same battery mineral sourcing requirements as the EVs do. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml
- bunderbunder 1y agoJust yesterday in the coffee shop the person next to me was having a conversation about his buyer's remorse over recently purchasing a full EV instead of a hybrid or plug-in hybrid. It sounded like he hadn't anticipated how much of a hassle it is to charge on road trips. Something about having to carefully plan around the locations of fast charge stations, and it really being a drag when you're just trying to get out of the city for a weekend. My sense is that plug-in hybrids really are the sweet spot for a lot of people in North America. The shorter full EV range is still well within most people's needs for a typical day's worth of driving, but you can still travel to and through rural areas without so much stress about whether you'll get stuck killing time for an hour or two at a slow charge station.
- slg 1y ago>It sounded like he hadn't anticipated how much of a hassle it is to charge on road trips. A few years ago this was true, but now that Tesla has opened up their network of chargers, your destination probably has to be >100 miles away from most interstate highways before road trip charging becomes much of an issue.
- ketzo 1y agoEven if there are charging stations every ten miles along the exact route you were already planning to take, it’s just straightforwardly true that it’s more annoying to charge vs. get gas. I can fill my tank and be back on the road in <5 minutes in most cases, and I only have to do that once every 350 miles. With an EV, I would be stopping anywhere from 10-30minutes (depending on the kinds of chargers available) (assuming I don’t have to wait for one to open up), and I’d be doing it twice as often. It adds a very meaningful amount of time to long car trips.
- slg 1y agoI think this is overstated. My Ford EV gets ~300 miles. If I leave my home with a full charge, I can get ~500 miles with ~30 minutes of charging. If a ~30 minute break in the middle of an ~8 hour drive is a problem for you, you probably aren't a safe driver. There is a reason that truckers have mandatory breaks. A person shouldn't be driving all day nonstop.
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoIn the US a plug-in hybrid seems like the best of both worlds. Once the charging infrastructure gets fully flushed out pure EVs will look a lot better.
- loeg 1y agoPHEVs (hybrids with large battery packs) are the worst of both worlds -- weight penalty of a big EV pack, but the complexity/maintenance of an ICE engine. Additionally, rarely used gas can go bad sitting in the tank. Just get a regular hybrid if you're concerned about EV range or don't like the current limited offerings.
- lmz 1y agoI thought those were programmed to run the engine once in a while regardless of necessity - to prevent the gas from going bad?
- saalweachter 1y agoYes -- it's happened once or twice with my Chevy Volt. Full charge, and it pops up a dialogue and runs the engine for a mile.
- slt2021 1y agoPHEV fits the ideal use case of short commute to work every day on EV, and a weekend trip to national park/resort city 400 miles away. but the downside is maintenance of ICE engine and transmission and all consumables
- loeg 1y ago> PHEV fits the ideal use case of short commute to work every day on EV, and a weekend trip to national park/resort city 400 miles away. IMO, EVs fit this use case just fine. There are plenty of chargers; it's not a big deal.
- lern_too_spel 1y ago
- pelagic_sky 1y agoAmerica is massive. And has a huge portion of “wild” country. As much as I want to go EV. All my free time is in the mountains on logging roads and in sub zero temps in winter. The charging networks are not yet embedded in the small mountain towns I frequent and I can’t take that chance.
- kccqzy 1y agoYou are just describing the chicken-and-egg problem. Without enough EVs there aren't incentives to build more chargers; without enough chargers EVs aren't sold in enough numbers. That's why the EV adoption curve in the United States is still in the early adopter phase. And clearly you aren't enthusiastic about being an early adopter.
- ajmurmann 1y agoWhat is their beef with full-EV? First it was hydrogen fuel cells and now limitation to hybrid. Seems odd at best.
- sidibe 1y agoI think they've just never liked the range. They're waiting for solid state batteries to work at that scale
- ern 1y agoI suspect it's that they build excellent ICE vehicles, and were quick to go to hybrids but missed the rise of EVs. Everything we're seeing is a rearguard action to protect their ICE business.
- ajmurmann 1y agoFunny enough they produced an electric Rav 4 as far back as 1997! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
- makeitdouble 1y agoNot mature enough to Toyota's taste, probably. Hydrogen fuel cell is more about diversification, and it is fully backed by the Japan gov so ROI would be through the roof even if it doesn't "win". Also many countries aren't producing enough electricity (cough Japan and Germanycough) so EVs getting popular _at scale_ isn't going to happen tomorrow either.
- slt2021 1y agocannot believe that Japan finds its better to depend on oil from Middle East and import gasoline instead of building one more nuclear plant
- makeitdouble 1y agoHaving a nuclear disaster only decade ago with a flurry of other plants that couldn't pass the safety test when re-checked creates a pretty tough situation. Right now there's a plant that is stopped by the gov from getting back into production for safety issues, with the elec company trying to appeal for the nth time, and it sure doesn't help the overall image. "This time it will be fine" is kinda hard to stomach for the impacted public to be honest.
- cryptoegorophy 1y agoI believe they’re batten on solid-state technology, which is like nuclear fusion. 10 years away
- duxup 1y agoThey seem to make good hybrids, just haven’t chosen to go full electric in a lot of cases. I do wish they’d make a plug in hybrid Sienna…
- quickslowdown 1y agoToyota had an incredible lead with the Prius that they completely squandered. It was a shamefully poor decision to stop investing in electric.
- BLKNSLVR 1y agoLike Nissan's lead in full electrification with the Leaf. Squandered.
- GloamingNiblets 1y agoThis is 100% intentional, they have been clear that their strategic direction is hybrids, not pure electric. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-industry-trend-toyota-chairman-downplays-ev-growth-predictions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-in...
- OJFord 1y agoAnd they were way ahead on hybrids, at least from my perspective in the UK market.
- Angostura 1y agoevery single minivan in London, it seems
- m463 1y ago> have been clear I disagree. They backed hydrogen / fuel cells for most of the years others were developing bevs.
- princevegeta89 1y agoThe Hydrogen/fuel-cells were not mass-marketable for some reason, and also beyond that they have been hard to manufacture and sustain, especially when it came to setting up that network of fueling stations and adoptability for customers.
- m463 1y agoI remember looking at a fueling station years ago, and one kg of hydrogen (~ 1 gal of gas?) was over $17 at the time. No worries for the folks who got free fuel with their car at first, but didn't seem sustainable (for a wallet).
- andrewmcwatters 1y agoelectrification isn't self-driving, though. They're worlds apart.
- mullingitover 1y agoIsn't that Japan in general, and for national security reasons? AFAIK they're wholly dependent on China for crucial mineral components in EVs, and 'burning the boats' by abandoning internal combustion manufacturing would effectively turn them into China's vassal.
- throwaway48476 1y agoRare earth's aren't rare.
- daedrdev 1y agoChina processes ~90% of rare earth raw materials into actual rare earths
- boredatoms 1y agoThen onshore the processing to Japan, other countries like Australia can provide the ores
- slt2021 1y agoonly because nobody else bothered to build processing plants for the low demand minerals. it is trivial to build and these minerals can be found everywhere
- daedrdev 1y agoYou are delusional if you think it's trivial.
- mullingitover 1y agoThis. Yes, 'rare earths aren't rare,' and I hear that, and then I also hear that everyone is screwed if China won't sell theirs. It can't be both. The key reasons I've heard for China owning this market are a) they have large deposits, b) they heavily invested for decades, and c) they aggressively dump and undercut in an anticompetitive fashion to ensure they keep the market cornered. Seems like the only way out of this is to stop being religiously opposed to state subsidies in an industry of clear national security importance, combined with maybe a Herbert Dow-style jiu-jitsu move of countering any dumping by stockpiling and then re-selling the below-market product.
- jimbob45 1y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1jzzanf/auto_brands_leading_the_us_ev_revolution_charts/?rdt=48207 https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1jzzanf/a... Wow, you’re more right than I thought. Ford is way higher than I would have thought too.
- linkregister 1y agoThe electric Toyota bZ4X is marketed in Japan, Australia, US, Canada, Europe, and China as the Subaru Solterra.
- jbm 1y agoI went to a Subaru dealer here in Calgary and asked about the Solterra with a friend present. The salesman bluntly told me to get a Tesla and half heartedly tried to get me to look at a hybrid. I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't there with a friend. In retrospect, I am happier with my used Model 3 than an electric car from a company with no intent on winning the market.
- overstay8930 1y agoHybrids are barely mainstream and are growing faster than EVs, Toyota doesn't have anything to worry about for a long time.
- jes5199 1y agothat’s true today and yet they will be bankrupt by 2030
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- lxe 1y agoTheir new Prius Hybrid is an excellent car. Wish people didn't look away from hybrids due to all the EV hype.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Toyota has been way, way behind on electrification They’re Toyota. They can buy their way onto the winner’s table later.
- vardump 1y agoI fear in the long run Toyota might be bought by some Chinese competitor. Like BYD. Hopefully this won't happen.
- s1artibartfast 1y agoYou can sleep easy. There is zero chance the Japanese government would let that happen.
- Enginerrrd 1y agoAs far as I can tell, I cant disagree harder. Toyota has been making EXCELLENT design decisions and providing great value to consumers. For most of America, EV'S and the associated infrastructure aren't QUITE there yet.
- jeffbee 1y agoToyota has delivered more batteries in cars than anyone but Tesla.
- floxy 1y agoAnyone have a source for how many pounds of batteries each car manufacturer has shipped over the years? It would be nice to see how BYD is doing compared to Toyota, Tesla, VW, and General Motors, etc.
- eikenberry 1y agoThey have some of the best hybrids on the market and EVs in general are not ready for prime time yet. Their plug-in hybrids are in the current sweet spot and are very popular. They have plenty of time to catch up once infrastructure and power density are there for EVs. This is with a US context.
- princevegeta89 1y agoActually, we should also realize that they've been super wildly successful at getting people to move towards clean energy vehicles. Prius is the world's highest selling Hybrid car, and it's been that for more than a decade now. This means Toyota has helped cut down emissions from consumer automobiles by a significant degree. It's not the 1000 EVs out of the 100k vehicles that matter, but rather the 10k hybrid vehicles out of that same 100k pool, which literally produce double the MPG compared to ICE cars. It becomes obvious when we look at the total emissions generated by that pool of 100k cars. If there's anyone to blame, I'd look at the luxury division - Mercedes, Audi and BMW (and also Genesis/Acura) - all late to the party, and still haven't been successful at meaningfully replacing the vehicles they would sell to their customers yet.
- shreezus 1y agoUp until recently (~2022/23) Toyota had cumulatively sold more hybrids than all EVs sold by all manufacturers combined, globally. They arguably have the best hybrid drivetrain on the market, and it's gotten to the point where even the Camry (2025 onwards) are exclusively offered as hybrids now.
- princevegeta89 1y ago>> Camry (2025 onwards) are exclusively offered as hybrids now. This is a very dope move. Glad to hear that
- Retric 1y agoThat sounds more impressive than it is actual savings from hybrids is vastly less than EV’s and the ramp up has been extremely quick. Combined mileage from many hybrid power trains is only ~10% better, and the technology inherently adds significant costs/complexity.
- kjkjadksj 1y agoThey were not getting 45 mpg without hybrid…
- gghffguhvc 1y agoTwo car family with one plug in hybrid and one EV is a low stress setup. Only uses gas/petrol on road trips.
- jes5199 1y agoyes it was smart to keep a landline phone for a few years
- asadm 1y agoEV has been a hype and a pain to own. Hybrids ftw.
- malfist 1y agoI suspect you don't actually own an ev. Otherwise you might mention a specific here. I own an ev and they're marvelous. The ability to leave with a full tank of gas every morning and never have to worry about filling up is fantastic. No maintenance other than tire rotations ever 10k miles, and electricity is way cheaper than gas. And EVs are just fun to drive. The instant torque is fantastic and everyone I show it off to loves it.
- kristofferR 1y ago"Been behind" is actually sugarcoating it, they actively lobbied against EVs for years: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h...
- carabiner 1y ago> death spiral that they haven’t even noticed yet Not noticed, because they're printing money with their hybrids that all have year-long waitlists in the US. Gas stations are alive and well, and until the housing crisis is fixed (not happening in our lifetime), people will be reliant on gas vehicles because you can't charge at most apartment complexes.
- za3faran 1y agoAren't now the european manufacturers pulling back from full electrification and into hybridization? Hopefully we'll get hydrogen powered cars at some point.
- jes5199 1y agowe will not