5 ms·

My sourdough starter has twins

219 points by Tomte 2y ago

philsnow 2y ago
In the first image ("How old is [Stinkie] compared to the other mumble mumble* starters?"), the cumulative age distribution mostly falls off as you might expect, but it looks like there's a very noticeable bump about 4-5 years ago. I guess people in Europe were making pandemic bread too. * I can't read Dutch
uptownfunk 2y ago
I must say that making my own starter, and making pizza from this.. incredible. It has been a very fun and fulfilling journey. It is better than going out for me and I now have it dialed in to where I can crank out 12 pizza in an hour from my oven. We have friends over and it’s a great time. The dough I feel like is also well adapted and suited to my particular environment and the flour I bake with and there is something unique in that this culture you can only get from me and my house
- amatecha 2y ago
  Yeah, the sourdough my wife and I bake now is so fine-tuned that we haven't had better sourdough from anywhere. Indeed the sourdough pizza is insanely good! We make crackers, pancakes and waffles with the discard. Oh and chocolate chip cookies... freakin' glorious. We did the Tour du Mont Blanc hike (170km/105mi) last summer over 8 days, and we took one of our sourdough starters to let it take in the different particulates in the air all over the alps. Whether it makes a big difference or not is hard to say, but it was a fun way to hopefully bolster the "diversity" of the starter's makeup. It is indeed a very strong starter that we get great results from. I would have been really curious to submit it to this study, had I the chance, because we've taken it all over the place now!
proteal 2y ago
This is a brilliant company idea! So happy it exists.
Aloisius 2y ago
> I wonder what might happen if I was to feed it twice a day at room temperature for a month or so. If that S. cerevisiae is from accidental contamination from commercial yeast, it'll probably stay dominant. Commercial yeast is a bit of an overachiever. Temperature matters though. You only really see San Francisco style sourdough cultures, with L. sanfranciscensis cooccuring with K. humilis yeast, in bakeries that regularly backslop at room temperature and never use commercial yeast. That's not easy for most home bakers.
- hersko 2y ago
  How can you see what type of yeast is in your starter? Are there ways to test?
notorandit 2y ago
> The graph shows five different vertical bars Actually 6
- schrectacular 2y ago
  "Five different bars containing unique combinations of typical sourdough classes, with the sixth bar being the combination of your own starter."
vintermann 2y ago
How's that for a startup idea: 23andMe, but for yeast. So 16andMe I guess. Seriously though, I love stuff like this, and wish biotechnology services were more accessible for regular people. Probably not much of a market, though!
ljf 2y ago
I will assume most people reading this are already sourdough bakers - but if not, baking sourdough can be extraordinarily simple, easy and cheap - give it a go! All you need to flour and water to make your starter, and a little salt for baking. I've got my (BakeWithJack style) process down to about 10 minutes (across 30mins) in the morning, 12 hours proofing, a few folds then into the fridge for 12 hours, then bake. A loaf lasts us 2 days and I can do the dough or bake while getting the kids ready for school. My wife offered to get some sort of bread machine, but it is the process that I love as much as the bread (same as brewing beer). This guy made baking really simple for me https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos
- AnonHP 2y ago
  Thanks for the link. It has hundreds of videos though. Any specific videos you’d recommend to get started and to fine tune it?
  - ljf 2y ago
    Hey, Try this series from him that is a great intro: https://youtu.be/vmb0wWKITBQ?si=S3MVF8qyKLOuCHmq https://youtu.be/vmb0wWKITBQ?si=S3MVF8qyKLOuCHmq I was then inspired by https://youtu.be/ZxCf39G_7pY?si=Mf5dfcZIngyXCuEY https://youtu.be/ZxCf39G_7pY?si=Mf5dfcZIngyXCuEY The worked up my own process below through seeing what worked for my flour and starter: 100g sourdough starter 300g water (cold and filtered) 12g fine sea salt 10g olive oil 550g white and brown bread flour mixed (I use 200g brown, 350g white) Morning of the day before (24 hours), or on the night before (12hours) you will bake: Feed the sourdough starter 50g brown bread flour and 50g water. Make sure that this is at least 12 hours before you plan to make the dough, allowing time to double in size and form a very bubbly starter before using. Morning: Measure 100g of bubbling sourdough starter into a bowl, add 300g cold water and whisk with a fork for 1min. Add 12g salt and whisk briefly again until the salt is dissolved. Add 10g olive oil and 550g flour and stir until all flour is mixed in, at least 2 mins of mixing. Use your (wet) hand to complete the mix. Leave for at least 5 minutes then gently lift and fold one corner of the dough into the middle, rotate the bowl 1/4 and repeat. Fold the dough 4 times then cover and leave for 15 mins and repeat the folding, before one final folding 15 mins later, before leaving to proof for the rest of the day. Proofing: Cover the dough, let it proof (rise) for 10-12 hours at 16-19c in the kitchen. It only needs to double in size - you don't want it to over proof. That evening: Shape. Check your dough, and when it has almost doubled in size, it is ready to stretch, fold, and shape. Wet your hands, and bring the dough in from the corners of the bowl, then reach in from each side and lift up the dough in the middle, letting it stretch down front and back. Let it stretch for 15 seconds, then fold these two dropping sides over itself, turn the bowl and repeat until folded this way 4 times. Shape roughly into the loaf you want, onto a lightly floured parchment-lined bowl - if your shaping has formed a seam, put the seam side up and pinch it closed. Cover and this in the fridge overnight. The next morning preheat the oven to 225c - if you have a cast iron pot add this to the oven to pre heat with the lid off. Remove the proofed loaf from the fridge, and add any cuts or slashes to the loaf before baking. Place the loaf (still on the parchment paper) into the cast iron pot, cover and bake for 20-25. Remove lid, and bake 10-15 more minutes, until very deeply golden. For my oven total baking time is 35 mins, 25 covered and 10 uncovered. Remove from the over and the pan, then remove the parchment paper. Let it cool on a rack for at least an hour before cutting. If you don't have a cast iron pot you can bake in two roasting trays placed face to face, or you can bake just on a baking tray, uncovered - if so add a small pour (20ml) of boiling water to the base of your oven, every 10 mins for the first 20 mins (at start, at 10mins,and at 20mins). Iterated from these instructions (with videos of the folds) https://www.feastingathome.com/sourdough-bread/#tasty-recipes-35045-jump-target https://www.feastingathome.com/sourdough-bread/#tasty-recipe...
taneliv 2y ago
This caught my eye: > reverse is true for that twin in Finland where rye is more predominant than wheat Calling yield of 26 mtons predominant over 869 mtons[1] seems like an exaggeration and maybe barley was meant instead of rye? Or I'm misinterpreting something. [1] https://vyr.fi/app/uploads/2024/01/inengl_1ca381b_Production_of_cereal_crops_in_Finland_2014_10.pdf https://vyr.fi/app/uploads/2024/01/inengl_1ca381b_Production...
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Knowing Finns, I'd wager that they mean rye flour is used more for bread than wheat flour. They're not talking about general production of flour, but usage in bread.
  - taneliv 2y ago
    Ah, that would make more sense. But even so, wheat seems to be three times more popular than rye: https://ruokatieto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Tietohaarukka_2023_Englanti_NETTIIN.pdf https://ruokatieto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Tietohaaruk...
- ninalanyon 2y ago
  milli-tons? Isn't that kg? It should be Mtonne or just Mt. Why is it so difficult for writers on economics to understand SI prefixes?
- Smar 2y ago
  I had thought rye was used for sourdough starter outside of Finland also. Rye based starter can be used for wheat bread without problems, but it may make sense to feed it some wheat beforehand. Also if you can find Finnish (== white colored) rye flour, consider baking some sourdough Finnish rye bread.
  - taneliv 2y ago
    Oh, I didn't know this about starters. And my mom used to make her own sourdough bread ... although it was of oat, so perhaps the starter was oatmeal as well. I'll have to ask her!
shihabkhanbd 2y ago
[dead]
- beAbU 2y ago
  My wife always keeps a bottle of discard in the back of the fridge. Sometimes we accidentally kill the main starter, and it can always be revived from this backup.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    It isn't hard to create a new starter from flour and water.
    - beAbU 2y ago
      There is a dramatic difference in taste in bread between old starter and fresh starter though. Restoring from a backup is also much faster than creating a starter from scratch.
  - troyvit 2y ago
    My friend made her own starter, then after she convinced me to get into it, she dried the starter into little flakes and shipped it to me. I pulled it out, rehydrated it over the week and then lo I had sourdough! So cool you can dry that and then re-use it.
4gotunameagain 2y ago
Calling Romania Greece is US levels of geographical ignorance. Impressive.
aloe_falsa 2y ago
> the uniqueness of your starter is defined by the local climate, local flour, and the way you feed it to keep it alive. The weather in Greece is much warmer... There's actually a word for this: terroir - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir
trkaky 2y ago
I thought there was millions of different kinds of bacteria and yeast inside a sourdough, in fact there are only a few..
arichard123 2y ago
How surprising to find this here. I've just started making sourdough bread. It turns out that I can't make it like the local bakery, but actually, that's fine. I had to really think? Do I like open crumb? Actually no! I want sandwich bread. I've been exploring what I can get away with. Leaving the bread to rise overnight on the counter? Yep. It's fine. Leaving the starter for 2 days instead of feeding every day when it lives on the counter. Sure - no problem. Knock it back or just quickly shape. Doesn't matter. Bake at 1.5 or 2 or 2.5 the size. It doesn't matter enough. Things that are not fine, shaping the bread, leaving it to rise in the oven which is on a timer and then the oven turns off but I'm not back for an hour to take it out. Crust too dry! Your mileage may vary of course. But sourdough just seems so much more forgiving than a fast acting yeast. I've yet to see if I care about a difference between a proper knead after the first rise or just a quick shaping. It's quite fun trying the different possibilities.
- mariusor 2y ago
  In my household we have "Starterday" for Friday - when the starter gets fed, "Riseday" for Saturday - when the dough gets kneaded, shaped and left to rise, and finally "Bakeday" for Sunday, when the bread goes in the oven early in the morning. A 1.5Kg loaf usually lasts until next Bakeday for both me and my partner.
  - kaishiro 2y ago
    How do you keep the bread fresh/edible for the entire week? I've been baking sourdough for only a few years now - but I find that after 2-3 days the bread is basically ready to become breadcrumbs no matter how I store it. Lately I've actually started slicing it two days after baking and freezing the slices so that they can be re-toasted to stretch things out.
    - ahartman00 2y ago
      Have you tried microwaving it for 10-15 seconds? I havent tried this with sourdough, but it works with stale white bread.
    - 2y ago
p00ter 2y ago
This is very interesting. I purchased what is claimed to be a 400 year old German / Bavarian culture and it's one of the most prolific I've ever had. I really enjoy the heartiness and it's ability to live in the fridge for a few weeks when I'm not using it (yes I know, bad parenting). I'd be really curious to see how it would compare. Very cool read, thanks a ton.
onefeduk21 2y ago
[dead]
indiansdontwipe 2y ago
[dead]
01100011 2y ago
I tried to supercharge my starter by putting a small piece of pineapple in it to see if it would pick up some more wild yeasts. I'm pretty sure the pineapple had bread yeast on it because now my starter is as active as commercial yeast and lost all of its sourness. I even tried putting yogurt kefir in to give the acid producing bacteria a foothold and slow down the yeast but no, the yeast continue to dominate. Oh well, time to start over. I generally have good luck with whole wheat + dark rye flour. Takes a week or two to get started.
yumraj 2y ago
I'm genuinely curious how important regularly feeding the starter in the fridge is if you're not a frequent baker? I leave it in the fridge, unfed for weeks/months, till I decide to bake. I take it out, feed it 50g flour and 50g water, leave it for a day or so and then use it. After using, throw a bunch, add another 50/50 and put it in fridge for the next time. Has anyone noticed changes in the quality of the starter/bread if they don't feed regularly while in the fridge.
- Zeebrommer 2y ago
  From experience, the bread has a better rise when I feed my starter for three or more cycles/days after storing it in the fridge. As if it needs to "wake up" and increase its speed of metabolism.
mjk200 2y ago
[dead]

219 points by Tomte 2y ago

In the first image ("How old is [Stinkie] compared to the other mumble mumble* starters?"), the cumulative age distribution mostly falls off as you might expect, but it looks like there's a very noticeable bump about 4-5 years ago. I guess people in Europe were making pandemic bread too. * I can't read Dutch

uptownfunk 2y ago

I must say that making my own starter, and making pizza from this.. incredible. It has been a very fun and fulfilling journey. It is better than going out for me and I now have it dialed in to where I can crank out 12 pizza in an hour from my oven. We have friends over and it’s a great time. The dough I feel like is also well adapted and suited to my particular environment and the flour I bake with and there is something unique in that this culture you can only get from me and my house

amatecha 2y ago
Yeah, the sourdough my wife and I bake now is so fine-tuned that we haven't had better sourdough from anywhere. Indeed the sourdough pizza is insanely good! We make crackers, pancakes and waffles with the discard. Oh and chocolate chip cookies... freakin' glorious. We did the Tour du Mont Blanc hike (170km/105mi) last summer over 8 days, and we took one of our sourdough starters to let it take in the different particulates in the air all over the alps. Whether it makes a big difference or not is hard to say, but it was a fun way to hopefully bolster the "diversity" of the starter's makeup. It is indeed a very strong starter that we get great results from. I would have been really curious to submit it to this study, had I the chance, because we've taken it all over the place now!

proteal 2y ago

This is a brilliant company idea! So happy it exists.

Aloisius 2y ago

> I wonder what might happen if I was to feed it twice a day at room temperature for a month or so. If that S. cerevisiae is from accidental contamination from commercial yeast, it'll probably stay dominant. Commercial yeast is a bit of an overachiever. Temperature matters though. You only really see San Francisco style sourdough cultures, with L. sanfranciscensis cooccuring with K. humilis yeast, in bakeries that regularly backslop at room temperature and never use commercial yeast. That's not easy for most home bakers.

hersko 2y ago
How can you see what type of yeast is in your starter? Are there ways to test?

notorandit 2y ago

> The graph shows five different vertical bars Actually 6

schrectacular 2y ago
"Five different bars containing unique combinations of typical sourdough classes, with the sixth bar being the combination of your own starter."

vintermann 2y ago

How's that for a startup idea: 23andMe, but for yeast. So 16andMe I guess. Seriously though, I love stuff like this, and wish biotechnology services were more accessible for regular people. Probably not much of a market, though!

ljf 2y ago

I will assume most people reading this are already sourdough bakers - but if not, baking sourdough can be extraordinarily simple, easy and cheap - give it a go! All you need to flour and water to make your starter, and a little salt for baking. I've got my (BakeWithJack style) process down to about 10 minutes (across 30mins) in the morning, 12 hours proofing, a few folds then into the fridge for 12 hours, then bake. A loaf lasts us 2 days and I can do the dough or bake while getting the kids ready for school. My wife offered to get some sort of bread machine, but it is the process that I love as much as the bread (same as brewing beer). This guy made baking really simple for me https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos

AnonHP 2y ago
Thanks for the link. It has hundreds of videos though. Any specific videos you’d recommend to get started and to fine tune it?
- ljf 2y ago
  Hey, Try this series from him that is a great intro: https://youtu.be/vmb0wWKITBQ?si=S3MVF8qyKLOuCHmq https://youtu.be/vmb0wWKITBQ?si=S3MVF8qyKLOuCHmq I was then inspired by https://youtu.be/ZxCf39G_7pY?si=Mf5dfcZIngyXCuEY https://youtu.be/ZxCf39G_7pY?si=Mf5dfcZIngyXCuEY The worked up my own process below through seeing what worked for my flour and starter: 100g sourdough starter 300g water (cold and filtered) 12g fine sea salt 10g olive oil 550g white and brown bread flour mixed (I use 200g brown, 350g white) Morning of the day before (24 hours), or on the night before (12hours) you will bake: Feed the sourdough starter 50g brown bread flour and 50g water. Make sure that this is at least 12 hours before you plan to make the dough, allowing time to double in size and form a very bubbly starter before using. Morning: Measure 100g of bubbling sourdough starter into a bowl, add 300g cold water and whisk with a fork for 1min. Add 12g salt and whisk briefly again until the salt is dissolved. Add 10g olive oil and 550g flour and stir until all flour is mixed in, at least 2 mins of mixing. Use your (wet) hand to complete the mix. Leave for at least 5 minutes then gently lift and fold one corner of the dough into the middle, rotate the bowl 1/4 and repeat. Fold the dough 4 times then cover and leave for 15 mins and repeat the folding, before one final folding 15 mins later, before leaving to proof for the rest of the day. Proofing: Cover the dough, let it proof (rise) for 10-12 hours at 16-19c in the kitchen. It only needs to double in size - you don't want it to over proof. That evening: Shape. Check your dough, and when it has almost doubled in size, it is ready to stretch, fold, and shape. Wet your hands, and bring the dough in from the corners of the bowl, then reach in from each side and lift up the dough in the middle, letting it stretch down front and back. Let it stretch for 15 seconds, then fold these two dropping sides over itself, turn the bowl and repeat until folded this way 4 times. Shape roughly into the loaf you want, onto a lightly floured parchment-lined bowl - if your shaping has formed a seam, put the seam side up and pinch it closed. Cover and this in the fridge overnight. The next morning preheat the oven to 225c - if you have a cast iron pot add this to the oven to pre heat with the lid off. Remove the proofed loaf from the fridge, and add any cuts or slashes to the loaf before baking. Place the loaf (still on the parchment paper) into the cast iron pot, cover and bake for 20-25. Remove lid, and bake 10-15 more minutes, until very deeply golden. For my oven total baking time is 35 mins, 25 covered and 10 uncovered. Remove from the over and the pan, then remove the parchment paper. Let it cool on a rack for at least an hour before cutting. If you don't have a cast iron pot you can bake in two roasting trays placed face to face, or you can bake just on a baking tray, uncovered - if so add a small pour (20ml) of boiling water to the base of your oven, every 10 mins for the first 20 mins (at start, at 10mins,and at 20mins). Iterated from these instructions (with videos of the folds) https://www.feastingathome.com/sourdough-bread/#tasty-recipes-35045-jump-target https://www.feastingathome.com/sourdough-bread/#tasty-recipe...

taneliv 2y ago

This caught my eye: > reverse is true for that twin in Finland where rye is more predominant than wheat Calling yield of 26 mtons predominant over 869 mtons[1] seems like an exaggeration and maybe barley was meant instead of rye? Or I'm misinterpreting something. [1] https://vyr.fi/app/uploads/2024/01/inengl_1ca381b_Production_of_cereal_crops_in_Finland_2014_10.pdf https://vyr.fi/app/uploads/2024/01/inengl_1ca381b_Production...

Etheryte 2y ago
Knowing Finns, I'd wager that they mean rye flour is used more for bread than wheat flour. They're not talking about general production of flour, but usage in bread.
- taneliv 2y ago
  Ah, that would make more sense. But even so, wheat seems to be three times more popular than rye: https://ruokatieto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Tietohaarukka_2023_Englanti_NETTIIN.pdf https://ruokatieto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Tietohaaruk...
ninalanyon 2y ago
milli-tons? Isn't that kg? It should be Mtonne or just Mt. Why is it so difficult for writers on economics to understand SI prefixes?
Smar 2y ago
I had thought rye was used for sourdough starter outside of Finland also. Rye based starter can be used for wheat bread without problems, but it may make sense to feed it some wheat beforehand. Also if you can find Finnish (== white colored) rye flour, consider baking some sourdough Finnish rye bread.
- taneliv 2y ago
  Oh, I didn't know this about starters. And my mom used to make her own sourdough bread ... although it was of oat, so perhaps the starter was oatmeal as well. I'll have to ask her!

shihabkhanbd 2y ago

[dead]

beAbU 2y ago
My wife always keeps a bottle of discard in the back of the fridge. Sometimes we accidentally kill the main starter, and it can always be revived from this backup.
- bluGill 2y ago
  It isn't hard to create a new starter from flour and water.
  - beAbU 2y ago
    There is a dramatic difference in taste in bread between old starter and fresh starter though. Restoring from a backup is also much faster than creating a starter from scratch.
- troyvit 2y ago
  My friend made her own starter, then after she convinced me to get into it, she dried the starter into little flakes and shipped it to me. I pulled it out, rehydrated it over the week and then lo I had sourdough! So cool you can dry that and then re-use it.

4gotunameagain 2y ago

Calling Romania Greece is US levels of geographical ignorance. Impressive.

aloe_falsa 2y ago

> the uniqueness of your starter is defined by the local climate, local flour, and the way you feed it to keep it alive. The weather in Greece is much warmer... There's actually a word for this: terroir - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir

trkaky 2y ago

I thought there was millions of different kinds of bacteria and yeast inside a sourdough, in fact there are only a few..

arichard123 2y ago

How surprising to find this here. I've just started making sourdough bread. It turns out that I can't make it like the local bakery, but actually, that's fine. I had to really think? Do I like open crumb? Actually no! I want sandwich bread. I've been exploring what I can get away with. Leaving the bread to rise overnight on the counter? Yep. It's fine. Leaving the starter for 2 days instead of feeding every day when it lives on the counter. Sure - no problem. Knock it back or just quickly shape. Doesn't matter. Bake at 1.5 or 2 or 2.5 the size. It doesn't matter enough. Things that are not fine, shaping the bread, leaving it to rise in the oven which is on a timer and then the oven turns off but I'm not back for an hour to take it out. Crust too dry! Your mileage may vary of course. But sourdough just seems so much more forgiving than a fast acting yeast. I've yet to see if I care about a difference between a proper knead after the first rise or just a quick shaping. It's quite fun trying the different possibilities.

mariusor 2y ago
In my household we have "Starterday" for Friday - when the starter gets fed, "Riseday" for Saturday - when the dough gets kneaded, shaped and left to rise, and finally "Bakeday" for Sunday, when the bread goes in the oven early in the morning. A 1.5Kg loaf usually lasts until next Bakeday for both me and my partner.
- kaishiro 2y ago
  How do you keep the bread fresh/edible for the entire week? I've been baking sourdough for only a few years now - but I find that after 2-3 days the bread is basically ready to become breadcrumbs no matter how I store it. Lately I've actually started slicing it two days after baking and freezing the slices so that they can be re-toasted to stretch things out.
  - ahartman00 2y ago
    Have you tried microwaving it for 10-15 seconds? I havent tried this with sourdough, but it works with stale white bread.
  - 2y ago

p00ter 2y ago

This is very interesting. I purchased what is claimed to be a 400 year old German / Bavarian culture and it's one of the most prolific I've ever had. I really enjoy the heartiness and it's ability to live in the fridge for a few weeks when I'm not using it (yes I know, bad parenting). I'd be really curious to see how it would compare. Very cool read, thanks a ton.

onefeduk21 2y ago

[dead]

indiansdontwipe 2y ago

[dead]

01100011 2y ago

I tried to supercharge my starter by putting a small piece of pineapple in it to see if it would pick up some more wild yeasts. I'm pretty sure the pineapple had bread yeast on it because now my starter is as active as commercial yeast and lost all of its sourness. I even tried putting yogurt kefir in to give the acid producing bacteria a foothold and slow down the yeast but no, the yeast continue to dominate. Oh well, time to start over. I generally have good luck with whole wheat + dark rye flour. Takes a week or two to get started.

yumraj 2y ago

I'm genuinely curious how important regularly feeding the starter in the fridge is if you're not a frequent baker? I leave it in the fridge, unfed for weeks/months, till I decide to bake. I take it out, feed it 50g flour and 50g water, leave it for a day or so and then use it. After using, throw a bunch, add another 50/50 and put it in fridge for the next time. Has anyone noticed changes in the quality of the starter/bread if they don't feed regularly while in the fridge.

Zeebrommer 2y ago
From experience, the bread has a better rise when I feed my starter for three or more cycles/days after storing it in the fridge. As if it needs to "wake up" and increase its speed of metabolism.

mjk200 2y ago

[dead]