6 ms·

The frequency aspect of a black start is presumably a bit easier in Europe because there's an interconnected synchronous grid so they can bootstrap it from Fran

The frequency aspect of a black start is presumably a bit easier in Europe because there's an interconnected synchronous grid so they can bootstrap it from France essentially. It's far more problematic for the UK because all the interconnects are DC.

padjo 1y ago
I was recently told by an electrical engineering lecturer that the black start plan here in Ireland is to use the DC interconnectors with the UK to provide startup power to a synchronous generator.
- ajmurmann 1y ago
  Did he mention the UK's plan in case they have a full blackout?
  - pjc50 1y ago
    https://www.nationalgrid.com/sites/default/files/documents/High%20Level%20Black%20Start%20Strategy.pdf https://www.nationalgrid.com/sites/default/files/documents/H... (2017, probably current)
    - InsomniacL 1y ago
      "it is prudent that the cost of maintaining Black Start Capability should demonstrate value to the end consumer" That sounds like someone explaining why the solution is so bad, before describing what the solution is.
      - pbhjpbhj 1y ago
        To me it sounds like an energy company attempting to excuse lack of spending on infrastructure whilst paying out millions to C-suite in bonuses and millions more to shareholders whilst arguing prices have to rise because they can't afford to spend on infrastructure...
        robocat 1y ago
        Your incentive "analysis" is wildly incorrect. Electricity markets and electricity networks are designed by the regulator. Incentives are planned by the regulator so that individual stations or companies have the correct incentives to have capabilities that the network grid needs. One example is financial incentives to provide black start capabilities. Another example is incentives to provide power during peak loading (peaker plants). There are many more examples of incentives designed so that the needs of the whole network are met. If an operator is incentivised to act selfishly in such a way that the grid will fail, then that is a failure of the regulator (not the individual operator). Blaming individual people or companies for systemic faults is generally a bad thinking habit to form. There are too many examples where I see individuals get blamed. Fixing our systems is hard but casting blame in the wrong places is not helpful. It's difficult to find a good balance between an individual's responsibilities and society's responsibilities.
        cyberax 1y ago
        > Electricity markets and electricity networks are designed by the regulator. Not quite. They are _influenced_ by the regulators. And Europe has been incentivizing trash-tier low-quality solar and wind power, by making it easy to sell energy (purely on a per-Joule basis) on the pan-European market. Meanwhile, there is no centralized capacity market or centralized incentives for black start and grid forming functionality.
        robocat 1y ago
        > there is no centralized capacity market or centralized incentives for black start There certainly is in New Zealand, although the dollar amounts are quite small. If your countries regulator doesn't incentivise the capability, I believe that is a fault of your regulator. Transpower (NZ) says: We may enter into black start contracts with parties who can offer the black start service compliant with our technical requirements and the Code. Black start is procured on a firm quantity procurement basis (via a monthly availability fee and/or a single event fee for specified stations). Black start costs are allocated to Transpower as the Grid Owner (see clause 8.56 in the Code for details) FYI: here's a list of other contracted services that are procured to benefit network reliability/restart/resiliancy: https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/information-industry/electricity-market-operation/ancillary-services https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/information-ind...
  - htrp 1y ago
    Connect with Ireland
  - d1sxeyes 1y ago
    The UK has pumped storage facilities that we can use to black start the national grid.
- beAbU 1y ago
  With the new wexford-wales interconnect that went live last month, and another one planned from Cork (?) to France things might be even easier in the near future I reckon.
oliwarner 1y ago
Does the source of "truth" matter? You still have to turn everything off, bring your generators up, each in sync and then allow load back on slowly. The UK keeping its own time just makes things easier for it IMO.
- wongarsu 1y ago
  A synchronous interconnect provides not just a source of truth but also stabilizes your grid frequency. If you have an isolated grid you have to match generation to demand to keep the grid frequency stable. If you have a 1GW interconnect that means you can mismatch generation and demand by up to a gigawatt and still be fine. I imagine that makes for a much faster startup procedure
  - k7sune 1y ago
    If the isolated grids all each synced to a source of truth first (GPS?), would it be possible for them to immediately connect afterwards?
    - wongarsu 1y ago
      You can connect two running grids. Earlier this year the Baltic countries disconnected from the Russian grid, and synchronized and then connected to the European grid. I imagine you can get close enough by syncing to a shared time source like GPS or the DCF77 signal, as long as you communicate how the phase is supposed to match up to the time source. Or at least you could get close enough that you can then quickly sync the islands the traditional way. The question is if it's worth the effort and risk. Cold starting a power grid is a once in a lifetime event (at least in Europe, I imagine some grids are less stable) and Spain seems to plan to have everything back up again in 10 hours. Maybe if the entire European grid went down we would attempt something like that by having each country start up on their own, then synchronize and reconnect the European grid over the following week. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states_synchronization_with_CESA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states_synchronization_...
      - 1y ago
tzs 1y ago
Isn't that backwards? When grids interconnect via DC wouldn't there no longer be a need for the grids to synchronize frequency?
- maxerickson 1y ago
  With the DC interconnect, your DC to AC conversion equipment would need the capability to provide synchronized power to the generator you are trying to start. With the synchronized grid tie, your are pulling the generator into the running grid.

padjo 1y ago

I was recently told by an electrical engineering lecturer that the black start plan here in Ireland is to use the DC interconnectors with the UK to provide startup power to a synchronous generator.

ajmurmann 1y ago
Did he mention the UK's plan in case they have a full blackout?
- pjc50 1y ago
  https://www.nationalgrid.com/sites/default/files/documents/High%20Level%20Black%20Start%20Strategy.pdf https://www.nationalgrid.com/sites/default/files/documents/H... (2017, probably current)
  - InsomniacL 1y ago
    "it is prudent that the cost of maintaining Black Start Capability should demonstrate value to the end consumer" That sounds like someone explaining why the solution is so bad, before describing what the solution is.
    - pbhjpbhj 1y ago
      To me it sounds like an energy company attempting to excuse lack of spending on infrastructure whilst paying out millions to C-suite in bonuses and millions more to shareholders whilst arguing prices have to rise because they can't afford to spend on infrastructure...
      - robocat 1y ago
        Your incentive "analysis" is wildly incorrect. Electricity markets and electricity networks are designed by the regulator. Incentives are planned by the regulator so that individual stations or companies have the correct incentives to have capabilities that the network grid needs. One example is financial incentives to provide black start capabilities. Another example is incentives to provide power during peak loading (peaker plants). There are many more examples of incentives designed so that the needs of the whole network are met. If an operator is incentivised to act selfishly in such a way that the grid will fail, then that is a failure of the regulator (not the individual operator). Blaming individual people or companies for systemic faults is generally a bad thinking habit to form. There are too many examples where I see individuals get blamed. Fixing our systems is hard but casting blame in the wrong places is not helpful. It's difficult to find a good balance between an individual's responsibilities and society's responsibilities.
        cyberax 1y ago
        > Electricity markets and electricity networks are designed by the regulator. Not quite. They are _influenced_ by the regulators. And Europe has been incentivizing trash-tier low-quality solar and wind power, by making it easy to sell energy (purely on a per-Joule basis) on the pan-European market. Meanwhile, there is no centralized capacity market or centralized incentives for black start and grid forming functionality.
        robocat 1y ago
        > there is no centralized capacity market or centralized incentives for black start There certainly is in New Zealand, although the dollar amounts are quite small. If your countries regulator doesn't incentivise the capability, I believe that is a fault of your regulator. Transpower (NZ) says: We may enter into black start contracts with parties who can offer the black start service compliant with our technical requirements and the Code. Black start is procured on a firm quantity procurement basis (via a monthly availability fee and/or a single event fee for specified stations). Black start costs are allocated to Transpower as the Grid Owner (see clause 8.56 in the Code for details) FYI: here's a list of other contracted services that are procured to benefit network reliability/restart/resiliancy: https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/information-industry/electricity-market-operation/ancillary-services https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/information-ind...
- htrp 1y ago
  Connect with Ireland
- d1sxeyes 1y ago
  The UK has pumped storage facilities that we can use to black start the national grid.
beAbU 1y ago
With the new wexford-wales interconnect that went live last month, and another one planned from Cork (?) to France things might be even easier in the near future I reckon.

oliwarner 1y ago

Does the source of "truth" matter? You still have to turn everything off, bring your generators up, each in sync and then allow load back on slowly. The UK keeping its own time just makes things easier for it IMO.

wongarsu 1y ago
A synchronous interconnect provides not just a source of truth but also stabilizes your grid frequency. If you have an isolated grid you have to match generation to demand to keep the grid frequency stable. If you have a 1GW interconnect that means you can mismatch generation and demand by up to a gigawatt and still be fine. I imagine that makes for a much faster startup procedure
- k7sune 1y ago
  If the isolated grids all each synced to a source of truth first (GPS?), would it be possible for them to immediately connect afterwards?
  - wongarsu 1y ago
    You can connect two running grids. Earlier this year the Baltic countries disconnected from the Russian grid, and synchronized and then connected to the European grid. I imagine you can get close enough by syncing to a shared time source like GPS or the DCF77 signal, as long as you communicate how the phase is supposed to match up to the time source. Or at least you could get close enough that you can then quickly sync the islands the traditional way. The question is if it's worth the effort and risk. Cold starting a power grid is a once in a lifetime event (at least in Europe, I imagine some grids are less stable) and Spain seems to plan to have everything back up again in 10 hours. Maybe if the entire European grid went down we would attempt something like that by having each country start up on their own, then synchronize and reconnect the European grid over the following week. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states_synchronization_with_CESA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states_synchronization_...
    - 1y ago

tzs 1y ago

Isn't that backwards? When grids interconnect via DC wouldn't there no longer be a need for the grids to synchronize frequency?

maxerickson 1y ago
With the DC interconnect, your DC to AC conversion equipment would need the capability to provide synchronized power to the generator you are trying to start. With the synchronized grid tie, your are pulling the generator into the running grid.