12 ms·

I just want to code (2023)

288 points by SCUSKU 1y ago

xfeeefeee 1y ago
I've always thought of myself as a struggling artist and musician first, code being one of many avenues to express myself, and also to pay the bills until I got into more managerial roles, and now I get to use it more creatively or in pursuit of creative endeavors rather than during work time, and it is incredibly liberating.
vicapow 1y ago
Just a suggestion: The github permissions your comment login thing requests is a bit too aggressive. > This application will be able to read and write all public repository data.
- wodenokoto 1y ago
  Can’t everyone read public repo data?
  - tczMUFlmoNk 1y ago
    Not everyone can write it…
    - wodenokoto 1y ago
      Oh, I missed that. Thank you.
gnabgib 1y ago
(2023)
codr7 1y ago
I've found that just writing code only takes me so far, I need to share as well to feel good about it. But sharing anything outside of the ordinary with the world means painting a pretty big target on your back. On the positive side, it also opens up an avenue for getting paid. My point is that if you start with the fun and let it grow from there, and you're willing to go through the discomfort of sharing, it doesn't have to be either or.
- mncharity 1y ago
  > share as well to feel good about it. But I wish to share, but not to helicopter parent. I've long felt this case ill served, from 1995 Perl CPAN's "you own the package name" (vs author-packagename-version triples), to 2025 github's impoverished support for communities of forks. No "past me wrote this; present me frees it to jam; future me isn't involved - play well together, and maybe someday I'll listen in or drop by". The emphasis has been on human ownership/control of code, and of limited human collaboration, rather than on code getting out there, building friendships and communities, having fun and flourishing with the humans.
  - necovek 1y ago
    That's only with GitHub. There are other platforms, obviously less popular, which don't take that approach. Heck, most of the "real" free software world (the one building entire operating systems, desktop environments, programming languages, games... other than Linus with Linux) operate in that manner. I am always perplexed when people ask me about my GitHub account for my opensource contributions: I point them at whatever the latest incarnation of ohloh (OpenHub) is where they can find thousands of my commits over hundreds of projects.
    - mncharity 1y ago
      https://openhub.net/ https://openhub.net/ . Other platforms? Any platforms emphasizing rendezvous? Like... Let me know whenever someone on my <fun people list> commits a new project, or is looking for help. Any meet-and-hacks later today, anywhere on the planet, which welcome virtuals? Happy to do 20 minutes of pair programming now - you know my profile - is anyone around? Text me whenever a flash-mob hackathon gets going. Notify me whenever code, any language, seeks help with <expertise domain>. Using my profile-3, find me a couple of candidate tickets for later. ... Sort of AI-facilitated social networking for humans and code.
  - milesrout 1y ago
    [dead]
- 1y ago
androng 1y ago
>No one likes schleps, but hackers especially dislike them. Most hackers who start startups wish they could do it by just writing some clever software, putting it on a server somewhere, and watching the money roll in—without ever having to talk to users, or negotiate with other companies, or deal with other people's broken code. Maybe that's possible, but I haven't seen it. >One of the many things we do at Y Combinator is teach hackers about the inevitability of schleps. No, you can't start a startup by just writing code. I remember going through this realization myself. There was a point in 1995 when I was still trying to convince myself I could start a company by just writing code. But I soon learned from experience that schleps are not merely inevitable, but pretty much what business consists of. A company is defined by the schleps it will undertake. >The most striking example I know of schlep blindness is Stripe, or rather Stripe's idea. For over a decade, every hacker who'd ever had to process payments online knew how painful the experience was. https://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html https://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html
- Macha 1y ago
  A lot of why people didn't build Stripe before was that to enter the payments space you needed connections to get the banks and payment processors to work with you. In comparison, you don't need anyone's permission to make uber for dry cleaners or something in line with other trends of the time. I doubt the Collison brothers would have been as successful getting Stripe off the ground if it had been their first company.
  - coolThingsFirst 1y ago
    Anything thats remotely disruptive requires the same deep connections. Tech just doesnt have many opportunities left.
    - morkalork 1y ago
      Working at a start-up now and seeing how many partnerships are solely due to connections of the CEO or a random board member is crushing. The tech side is an entirely and relatively easily solvable problem in comparison to the rest.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
pkdpic 1y ago
Love it, perfect length and cadence for a blog post (imho). Stayed focused on personal perspective / experience. Perfect minimally distracting amount of CSS. Perfect skimmability that drew me in to read in more detail. And a perfect conclusion that I just happen to agree with.
susam 1y ago
Outside of professional software jobs, for me code is also a form of personal expression. I code for work. But I also code for fun. Although there is some overlap in the experience between the two, the two forms of coding are wildly different. I probably don't need to explain much about coding at work. It's not just about "writing code". It's about software engineering. It's a responsibility that requires professionalism, discipline, and care. The real focus isn't the code itself. The focus is first and foremost on the business problems. Good code, good algorithms, and solid engineering practices are simply means to an end in solving those problems effectively. But in my free time, coding is something else entirely. It's a form of art and expressing myself. It all started with IBM PC Logo and GW-BASIC, where writing code to draw patterns on the screen was my way of creating art. While some kids painted with brushes and watercolours, I painted with code and CGA colours. Coding in my leisure time is a way for me to create, explore, and express my silly ideas without the constraints of business requirements or deadlines. It's where I get to experiment, play, and bring ideas, no matter how trivial or pointless, to life purely for the joy of it. Occasionally, these small experiments evolve into something I'm comfortable sharing online. That's when I write up a README.md, add a LICENSE.md, commit the code to my repo, and push it to GitHub or Codeberg to share with others hoping fellow like-minded individuals might find joy or utility in these experiments. Fortunately, I've been able to release a few projects that have gathered small communities of users. For example, my last such project was https://susam.net/myrgb.html https://susam.net/myrgb.html which, as far as I can tell, has got about 50 to 60 daily users. It's a small number but it's not nothing. While coding for leisure has always been enjoyable, the presence of these small communities has also been quite motivating. I think it is possible to do both with some luck. While coding for work happens almost everyday by necessity, I think coding for leisure can also happen along with it, provided other circumstances of life don't get in the way. If circumstances allow, it is certainly possible. It doesn't have to happen everyday. I know everyone has got responsibilities in their lives. I've got too. But it can happen once in a while, when a spark of inspiration strikes. For me, it usually happens on some weekends when I get an itch to explore an idea, something I feel compelled to implement and see through.
joshdavham 1y ago
I've actually been thinking about this a bunch the last couple of months and it's a truly painful dilemna! At a high level, for those of us who code outside of work, we're constantly faced with the choice of either working on something that we find interesting vs. something that would further our careers. It's awesome when they align, but it can be painful when they don't. I sometimes feel guilty when I choose to work on passion projects... but if I instead choose work on professional development, I feel like my creative soul starts to wither a bit.
cladopa 1y ago
If you have issues with having proper material compensation for your work, you will have to work on those first before anything else. Doing necessary work, even when you don't like is for me the definition of "work". You should also learn to manage it, if you work too much, you should take a break. You don't need to get rich as "billionaire", but if you are good at your work it is reasonable that you will get "millionaire", because you gave society tens of times more value that what you got. That is not something to be ashamed of. If you got the money gambling(taking it from someone else) you can feel ashamed, but not if you made money generating wealth with effort and work.
cortesoft 1y ago
Am I the only coder who has never really felt the desire to "be my own boss" and get rich from coding? I was so against the idea, actually, that I avoided majoring in CS because I didn't want to ruin my favorite hobby by doing it professionally. It wasn't until a few years after I graduated with my philosophy degree and couldn't find a career that I decided to try writing code for a living. It's been great for me for almost 20 years now, and thankfully I still love to code for fun even though I do it all day professionally, but I have not felt the pull to try to form my own startup and try to get rich. My favorite part of coding is having a problem and then figuring out how to solve it with the tools I have. I love working as a programmer because that is what I do all day, and someone pays me really good money to do it. And I don't have to worry about all the other stuff like business models or funding or getting customers or talking to people, I just get a problem and do my favorite thing to solve it. And I have more time to do other things because I am not hustling or trying to get rich.
- dalmo3 1y ago
  You're in the 99%. It's just that the other 1% write all the blog posts.
- mastazi 1y ago
  I'm the same, I started coding as a kid on an Amiga 500. But I never thought it would become my job. I studied a degree in communication and worked as a journalist first, then as a press agent. Later I decided to move to a different country where I could not work in PR or journalism due to language barriers so I went back to programming. Eventually I even went back to Uni and got a degree in IT because I felt that I had some knowledge gaps due to being self-taught. Going back to uni in my mid 30s was actually a cool experience (despite the fact that I had to study & work at the same time).
- 999900000999 1y ago
  I like programming for my friends. The moment money gets involved it goes to shit. Idea guys want you to program for free , and offer you something like 1% vested over 5 years. They have you sign NDAs before you start working. The ideas are all really really stupid. I do have my ideas, but I’m also humble enough to just accept I’ll probably never make any real money. I self taught my way straight to 6 figures ( back in 2016 when that still meant something). That’s enough really…
hateful 1y ago
> I watched an Amazon Prime knockoff of Silicon Valley called Betas Not sure you can call it a knockoff if it came out a year earlier!
CollinEMac 1y ago
As I get older I find myself embracing the angel more and more. I've met a lot of programmers that got what the devil was offering by only listening to the angel.
alganet 1y ago
Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming. It's not fun. The activity is not an enjoyable act of entertainment. It's stressful, time consuming and miserable. The result is what matters. You did something. Learned something. For you, not because it was in some work planning. It provides catharsis. That sort of catharsis does not exist in some work related environment. It never will, unless stars align magically, which they almost never do. I am highly skeptic of this "code is fun" perspective. Always was. That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake. Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale. It is for your own good. It prevents companies from hiring con men, it prevents young folk from being drawn to a career they will despise, it prevents massive loss of investment. I wanted to code for catharsis. To learn. To feel I made something. Wanted, past tense. These "code for fun" people were serious contributors to my burnout.
- bitwize 1y ago
  > Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming. I don't think that at all. I think he just has a different perspective on it than you do. Whilst your perspective is valid, some people actually do enjoy the work of coding, especially if they can do so in an environment where they can immediately check intermediate results and use those to shape their coding trajectory as they work, creating a tight OODA loop. (Hi, Lisp!) > That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake. > Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale. On this we can agree. I think that for programming to be fun it has to be something you want to see come into fruition, i.e., not any random thing someone else wants to see, done to their schedule by their rules. Good tech companies -- game studios in the 90s, Google in the early days, even Microsoft in the early days -- knew how to make the golden goose as comfortable as possible while slipping out the back with the eggs. But in the late 90s, Jim McCarthy's "Beware of a guy in a room" became iron gospel among management types, who interpreted it as meaning that developers must be subjected to a panopticon in which what they are doing at all times is tracked and analyzed by the chain of command going up to the C level. Hence Scrum, SAFe, and all that malarkey, and we've forgotten how to "let 'em cook" as the kids say now.
gmoque 1y ago
Coding is another tool, just the same way you buy a piece of furniture online you can also build it yourself, if you have the tools and skills. It's up to you how you want to use your resources (time and money). Coding is a tool to solve data problems, I've been doing it for close to two decades now and I still find it fulfilling and fun. Many years ago I used to think, I love my job that I would do my job for free ... I was wrong! Others will paid for doing things you find fun, make sure you know your worth.
- delusional 1y ago
  I understand your point, and I don't disagree with it as a matter of utility. It just doesn't capture all of what code is. I find computer systems beautiful. A system of parts interacting in a complex dance to process data. Each part effortlessly modifyable and reusable, executable by the generic machine people already own. I love the puzzle of putting data together, of shaping it in main memory, and the joy of finding that previous shaping makes the current problem easier. The joy of finding a hidden algebra or transitivity. All of these things go beyond the "tool" view of software and touches the "art" view. A painter doesn't find the painting useful, they find it beautiful. I would be writing software, even if I want paid. I would however be working on vastly different software, and I think that's the OP's point.
- GolDDranks 1y ago
  > Coding is another tool Maybe to you. For some of us, it's also a form of self-expression, a hobby or a lifestyle. In my experience coding for money and coding for fun is a very different experience. I know my worth, but I am also free to do whatever I want out of my working hours.
IvanK_net 1y ago
I have no idea why they mention coding. It is the same in any kind of job. You can bake cakes for fun, make music for fun, write poems, novels, play chess for fun, practice sports, grow potatos ... At a certain stage, you realize that in order to be able to do only that job, you must make someone pay you for it. You must do it in a way (or in a volume) which makes others happy. The fact that it makes you happy is not enough anymore. I don't think there is an angel and a devil. It is still the same thing. If you like the result of your work, there is a high chance that others will like it. You don't need to change what you do by a 100%. Changing it by 5% - 10% is often enough.
- blahgeek 1y ago
  I think it's more common because one doing only coding can get paid reasonably. On the contrary, few people who "bake cakes for fun, make music for fun, write poems, novels, play chess for fun, practice sports, grow potatos" can get paid enough for a living, so that's usually not an option to consider. (Which is the reason that I find us coding people very lucky.)
  - Juliate 1y ago
    > only coding can get paid reasonably If you happen to work for a company that's big enough to pay reasonably. And even that is still a very temporary accident of times. There was a time with plenty (comparatively to today) of tailors, living very reasonably, because there was a demand, and the means. Today, you're lucky if you manage to find one that's in your city, and even more if he/she's not too expensive (that is, compared to ready-made stuff).
    - varjag 1y ago
      Come on, coding is universally at a premium compared to other trades. Naturally you wouldn't have a FAANG salary at an outsourcing farm overseas but it'll certainly provide you with comfortable living by local standards.
      - 1y ago
ankurdhama 1y ago
When you start coding and start having fun, please remember that the "fun" doesn't apply to coding as profession. The same goes for any other profession. Doing something for fun vs professionally are two different worlds.
- xnickb 1y ago
  Confidently wrong. Life is a bit more nuanced than that. Look at any popular open source project and tell me not a single contributor was having fun while writing it. I can give you examples of very high quality open source projects where I know for a fact that the person/team behind them were just having fun.
  - ankurdhama 1y ago
    Let me clarify what I mean by for fun vs professionally. For fun means you make decisions based on "That feature would be fun to implement". Professionally means you make decision based on "That's what good for business". Based on these definitions most of the open source projects don't fall under "professionally" category.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      Aside from maybe a handful of projects that got lucky squatting on the right name (e.g. left-pad), are there any popular open source projects that have become popular on "that would be fun to implement" rather than "that's what is good for business" (understanding the user, answering issues, implementing requested features, etc.)? The chances of your fun overlapping the exact market need seems rather slim. Even among unpopular open source projects, I expect most of them are published as a way to demonstrate ability to employers rather than "that would be fun". The latter projects do exist, but it is surprising if they make up most open source projects.
ringeryless 1y ago
I am concerned about the authors propensity for taking pop cultural memes very very seriously. Somewhere in here is a lightbulb waiting to go off and a complete human ready to be born. Maybe consider going camping.
queueueue 1y ago
For me, this has somehow gotten to a point where I keep questioning myself if I’m actually doing something out of curiosity or because of the idea I could share something with other people or some other motive. So I’m not even sure what I’m curious about anymore, which might sound ridiculous.
- ArcHound 1y ago
  Hey, don't worry. In my book, if you do something because you want to share it, then you're still interested in it enough (or curious about if you want). You just like to share, and that's okay. It's also a good filter for topics. Naturally, the topics of interest of others seem more valuable. I am doing a similar thing on my blog. Generally, each topic must pass the test of: is this useful to at least some? And being commited to write means I can clarify and organize my thoughts. So nothing to worry about, keep on experimenting and sharing.
wzhudev 1y ago
This is basically what I am thinking about in the past few months. When everybody is talking about AI but you don't buy it.
Thorrez 1y ago
>In a perfect world, I could listen to the angel and solely get by having fun and working on things I enjoy. But if I didn't listen to the devil from time to time, I wouldn't stay up to date with the latest technologies, and as a result I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. Why do you need to listen to the devil to stay up to date with the latest technologies? You don't need to work on something monetizable to stay up on the latest technologies. You can work on something for fun and incorporate some of the latest technologies to learn about them at the same time.
alkonaut 1y ago
Do many people hobby code with that entrepreneur mindset thing? Or sit down to play guitar thinking they want to make a hit and feeling bad if they just noodle some cover songs? What a miserable existence that must be. How do you get that way? Should we blame LinkedIn or what is it?
- stepbeek 1y ago
  I had my own company previously and I found it hard to detangle that commercial mindset from hobby coding. I’m employed now and find it much easier to code purely for fun. If I played guitar professionally then I’d probably find it hard to not think about new pieces in the context of a gig-worthy repertoire.
  - p0nce 1y ago
    This is real, anytime I code I'm obsessed about RoI
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  This is a reaction that I had for a time, until realizing that outside of just "some people are different", there is also the wider protestant work ethic putting work at the center of their life, and assigning a moral value to productive work. I'm describing it in too vague terms to be appropriate, and most people might be thinking it in that way, but I genuinely think there's a part of it in a lot of the "I did this paid service as a weekend project" mentality.
- cess11 1y ago
  Many people think that they just have to write some code and execute it publicly and they'll somehow be provided for. That can sully recreational coding since it makes it hard to see that it will most definitely not be directly profitable without a lot of non-coding labour. Doing business is demanding, you've got compliance and documentation and code needs to be intelligible to other people and finances and marketing and planning and customer support and all that domain knowledge that allows you to catch more than one or two paying customers because your solution works in most of a sector of society and so on. With this in mind you'll have an easy time seeing that your for fun, recreational project is not a business and that you can't think of it as one until users are starting to force you to by being so many or offering money for additional services.
pacifika 1y ago
The angel is human curiosity and the devil here is capitalism society pressures. be you.
defanor 1y ago
> But if I didn't listen to the devil from time to time, I wouldn't stay up to date with the latest technologies, and as a result I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. It appears to imply that new technologies do not count as fun, which may be the case for the author, but not generally. And there are indeed fewer open vacancies requiring older (decades old) technologies exclusively, with vacancies often including currently-hyped technologies in addition to established ones, which opens more options and potentially leads to a higher salary if one employs those newer or hyped ones, but I guess that it is quite possible to pay the bills while using mostly the older ones, too.
rorylaitila 1y ago
I've thought that recently there are things I'm willing to build, things I'm willing to sell, and things I'm willing to support. My desire for each is not in equal measure. There are vastly more things I will build for myself then I can sell, and there are a lot of things I like selling but I hate supporting. Only when I feel the trifecta do I release it to the public. The rest I tell myself I can just enjoy the process of building and throwing it away if I want, it doesn't matter.
TrackerFF 1y ago
At least for me, I enjoy trying to solve problems using code. Kind of like how some people enjoy solving cross-words, math problems, and what have you. As for the larger things that could potentially lead to a business, those types of problems usually come from something I encounter at work. If I'm stuck using software that sucks, identify some obvious demand, etc.
milquen 1y ago
…man never regards what he possesses as so much his own, as what he does; and the labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner, than the listless voluptuary who enjoys its fruits…In view of this consideration, it seems as if all peasants and craftsman might be elevated into artists; that is, men who love their labour for its own sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and inventive skill, and thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character, and exalt and refine their pleasures. And so humanity would be ennobled by the very things which now, though beautiful in themselves, so often serve to degrade it…But, still, freedom is undoubtedly the indispensable condition, without which even the pursuits most congenial to individual human nature, can never succeed in producing such salutary influences. Whatever does not spring from a man’s free choice, or is only the result of instruction and guidance, does not enter into his very being, but remains alien to his true nature; he does not perform it with truly human energies, but merely with mechanical exactness… …we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is. https://readmorestuff.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/extracts-from-the-limits-of-state-action-by-wilhelm-von-humboldt-1792/ https://readmorestuff.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/extracts-from...
firemelt 1y ago
its the opposite for me, I always choose to have fun, instead making mone, 0 motivation to chase the later. I wish I tend to my devil side :(
kgeist 1y ago
For me personally, there's no dilemma. I was landed a pretty good, high-paying job after showing my pretty sophisticated pet projects I made for the fun of it. In my free time, I keep making pet projects out of "curiosity, enlightenment, and purity", and if some have potential, I showcase them to the employer and they're integrated into the product, or as a dev tool. Builds a good resume, too. Maybe I'm lucky that my employer is open to new ideas/projects. So, both the angel and the devil are satisfied :)
- coev 1y ago
  Do you keep ownership over those tools when they're integrated into your employer's product? What are the terms on your employment contract? This can get muddy.
gitroom 1y ago
i feel this deep, it's way too easy to forget why i started coding in the first place
simpaticoder 1y ago
But shipping is in service of curiosity, though! There is nothing more fascinating than watching your work come into contact with real users. They will find error modes and use-cases you never imagined. If you code for fun and no-one ever sees it, then you'll never have this experience.
mihaaly 1y ago
My angel and devil have reverse roles. My angel wants me to do my side hustles and produce well made products. For the users and myself. But he sits behind me in the corner now with a bitter face. Neglected and left out. The devil took over making me work for money, sell my hours for the high bidder, for current income. So I could provide for the three most precious ladies in the world: my wife and daughters. The devil turned out to be not a powerful figure but a ruthless but pity, sweaty salesguy selling crap that I stuck in. Need to carry on with the technology mandated in the position, outdating as we speak, making me increasingly unemployable elsewhere without the 10 years hands on coding experience in 15 kinds of 2 - 7 years old technology, with leadership and mentor abilities of course as an essential trait required. Willing to be enthusiastically agile the hell out of it! For free pizza and fruit bowl! No good path ahead.
skor 1y ago
I code purely for fun, creating programs that generate and compose music. Sometimes I hit the record button and capture the results. Here's one of my latest recordings, if anyone's interested: https://lowveld.bandcamp.com/album/etches https://lowveld.bandcamp.com/album/etches. Musically I think this belongs in the underground - and should stay there. I'm very interested in the theory behind software & music. Over the years I've mostly focused on the engineering side, but maybe one day I'll document and publish more about it too.
- acureau 1y ago
  I'd love to read some of these programs and/or read about the process of writing them. "Etches 04" is awesome, it sounds like I'm looking out at some post-apocalyptic cityscape. Please do drop a line if you publish anything.
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago
  Interested. Would like to hear more (of the music, and what you code).
LandR 1y ago
Man, I work 8-4 Mon-Fri. As soon as 4 rolls around, I'm done with the money making portion of the day and the rest is just entirely fun stuff. I couldn't care less if what I'm doing isn't ever going to make money, it's just fun / interesting / satisfying curiosity. I run - but I know I'm never going to make money running. I climb - but I know I'm never going to make money climbing. I code for fun on my side projects - same deal. That work mindset gets turned off hard at 4pm.
- dripdry45 1y ago
  Fellow climber/coder... Where you climbing these days?
  - thelaxiankey2 1y ago
    Sick now, but till last year it was Mt woodson/tahquitz rock/the eastern sierra. When I lived in the bay it was pinnacles, obscurities in the Santa Cruz mountains, and lovers leap/Yosemite/etc
- Fripplebubby 1y ago
  I think part of the author's point is that, specifically if you are _coding_ for fun, it is much harder to "turn off" that part of your brain that analyzes it from a business perspective. It's not as if you can close one IDE at 4 and open another IDE at 4:01 at put yourself in a different mindset.
  - blenderob 1y ago
    Of course you can. (I mean many of us can.) I've been doing it for years. I'm surprised that because you find it hard to "turn off" that part of your brain, it must be so for everyone else. It isn't. There are many of us who code for fun and do it with a totally different mindset with no "business thoughts" in mind.
    - Fripplebubby 1y ago
      Speaking for myself, the author's post resonated with me in two ways - both that it's hard to turn off the business side of the brain ("Could this side project be a startup? Should I build it this way just in case I decide to do that later?") but also that I find it hard to turn off the manager brain ("Is this really the right order to do things? Is this the most valuable thing I could be doing?"), too, other people in the thread are mentioning thinking about opportunity cost to be interfering with their ability to commit to side projects (and also to actually _enjoy_ doing them).
didip 1y ago
This resonates greatly with me. It used to be such a torture (in my own mind) to constantly trying to come up with a new hustle. But not anymore. As I got older and after fatherhood, I have learned that balance is everything. Including valueing my time in having fun doing productive things. If the hacking side project gives me tremendous enjoyment, then it is a win already both from happiness and the “job training” aspect. As it so happened, I just hang out with my little cousins who are into robotics and so glad that my side projects in the past helped me connect with them, and I was able to give valuable advice. That was a big win for me. Also, I have learned the value of providing stability for my own family. Something that the childless me never appreciated. Throwing away stability to start a startup has a steep cost these days.
kelsey978126 1y ago
There's more than code to build a startup. I have found the best way for me to avoid burnout or alternatively feeling like i am behind is to set very high goals. Find a lifetime goal. Maybe it's making a startup, maybe it's something else. Everything you do should mostly fit into some super long term plan that could take an entire lifetime's worth of work. If you are doing creative or personal projects, these build skill and experience which will be needed by that long term project. Martial artists train by punching trees. To build micro fractures in the hand bones and increase the density and strength of these bones. Go punch your trees.
some1else 1y ago
I just want to kick back and code like it's 199NaN
0xbadcafebee 1y ago
Sounds like a conflict between wanting to do something you love, and wanting success and fame. Nothing wrong with either of these things, or trying to have both. But what you might be missing is that the way you pursue these things has a much larger impact on the outcome than simply whether you make an attempt or not. You might have been reading all those stories of startups, and now you're stuck in a box shaped like all those stories. That you have to start a startup at all, or that you have to go about it in the way those stories told. You might think that's your only path. But the only limits in this world are the ones we put on ourselves. Meditate on what you really want, at your core. Start the wheels turning of thinking of ways to get those things that aren't immediately obvious or don't seem likely. Consider a world in which you didn't have fear, doubt, anxiety, or other kinds of limitations. Which path would you choose? What are all the ways you might use to walk that path? You don't need to know the whole path to start walking on it.
kelnos 1y ago
I feel like there's some middle ground that OP is missing. Perhaps intentionally, but that might not be for everyone. I worked for software/hardware companies for 21 years. Some were stable income for me, but nothing amazing. A few were startups where I worked hard but they didn't go anywhere (fortunately I earned a stable, market-rate income before they failed). One turned out to be reasonably life-changing, and I'm very lucky for that. On and off over that period of time I worked on open source projects, some that didn't go anywhere, some that have been successful. Right now I'm building something to try to sell. I'm not going to take any VC money or pursue high growth. I'm not chasing the latest whiz-bang AI whatever. I'm building a fairly boring product (that is still fun for me to build), using the tech stack that I want, to the standards of quality that I want. Right now I'm working hard on it, but the goal is that, once it's "done" and has customers (fingers crossed I manage to attract paying customers), I'll be spending no more than 10 hours a week on it (and hopefully less on average). If it "only" gets to $500k/yr in revenue or so, after some number of years running it, I'll consider that a fantastic success. If I can run the entire thing on one or two VMs, and it never grows past that infra-wise, that's a fantastic success. You can listen to both the angel and the devil and still control your own destiny, outside of the scraps your employer will throw at you. Who knows, though, maybe this idea of mine won't work. But I'm happy I'm giving it a try.

288 points by SCUSKU 1y ago

I've always thought of myself as a struggling artist and musician first, code being one of many avenues to express myself, and also to pay the bills until I got into more managerial roles, and now I get to use it more creatively or in pursuit of creative endeavors rather than during work time, and it is incredibly liberating.

vicapow 1y ago

Just a suggestion: The github permissions your comment login thing requests is a bit too aggressive. > This application will be able to read and write all public repository data.

wodenokoto 1y ago
Can’t everyone read public repo data?
- tczMUFlmoNk 1y ago
  Not everyone can write it…
  - wodenokoto 1y ago
    Oh, I missed that. Thank you.

gnabgib 1y ago

(2023)

codr7 1y ago

I've found that just writing code only takes me so far, I need to share as well to feel good about it. But sharing anything outside of the ordinary with the world means painting a pretty big target on your back. On the positive side, it also opens up an avenue for getting paid. My point is that if you start with the fun and let it grow from there, and you're willing to go through the discomfort of sharing, it doesn't have to be either or.

mncharity 1y ago
> share as well to feel good about it. But I wish to share, but not to helicopter parent. I've long felt this case ill served, from 1995 Perl CPAN's "you own the package name" (vs author-packagename-version triples), to 2025 github's impoverished support for communities of forks. No "past me wrote this; present me frees it to jam; future me isn't involved - play well together, and maybe someday I'll listen in or drop by". The emphasis has been on human ownership/control of code, and of limited human collaboration, rather than on code getting out there, building friendships and communities, having fun and flourishing with the humans.
- necovek 1y ago
  That's only with GitHub. There are other platforms, obviously less popular, which don't take that approach. Heck, most of the "real" free software world (the one building entire operating systems, desktop environments, programming languages, games... other than Linus with Linux) operate in that manner. I am always perplexed when people ask me about my GitHub account for my opensource contributions: I point them at whatever the latest incarnation of ohloh (OpenHub) is where they can find thousands of my commits over hundreds of projects.
  - mncharity 1y ago
    https://openhub.net/ https://openhub.net/ . Other platforms? Any platforms emphasizing rendezvous? Like... Let me know whenever someone on my <fun people list> commits a new project, or is looking for help. Any meet-and-hacks later today, anywhere on the planet, which welcome virtuals? Happy to do 20 minutes of pair programming now - you know my profile - is anyone around? Text me whenever a flash-mob hackathon gets going. Notify me whenever code, any language, seeks help with <expertise domain>. Using my profile-3, find me a couple of candidate tickets for later. ... Sort of AI-facilitated social networking for humans and code.
- milesrout 1y ago
  [dead]
1y ago

androng 1y ago

>No one likes schleps, but hackers especially dislike them. Most hackers who start startups wish they could do it by just writing some clever software, putting it on a server somewhere, and watching the money roll in—without ever having to talk to users, or negotiate with other companies, or deal with other people's broken code. Maybe that's possible, but I haven't seen it. >One of the many things we do at Y Combinator is teach hackers about the inevitability of schleps. No, you can't start a startup by just writing code. I remember going through this realization myself. There was a point in 1995 when I was still trying to convince myself I could start a company by just writing code. But I soon learned from experience that schleps are not merely inevitable, but pretty much what business consists of. A company is defined by the schleps it will undertake. >The most striking example I know of schlep blindness is Stripe, or rather Stripe's idea. For over a decade, every hacker who'd ever had to process payments online knew how painful the experience was. https://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html https://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html

Macha 1y ago
A lot of why people didn't build Stripe before was that to enter the payments space you needed connections to get the banks and payment processors to work with you. In comparison, you don't need anyone's permission to make uber for dry cleaners or something in line with other trends of the time. I doubt the Collison brothers would have been as successful getting Stripe off the ground if it had been their first company.
- coolThingsFirst 1y ago
  Anything thats remotely disruptive requires the same deep connections. Tech just doesnt have many opportunities left.
  - morkalork 1y ago
    Working at a start-up now and seeing how many partnerships are solely due to connections of the CEO or a random board member is crushing. The tech side is an entirely and relatively easily solvable problem in comparison to the rest.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

pkdpic 1y ago

Love it, perfect length and cadence for a blog post (imho). Stayed focused on personal perspective / experience. Perfect minimally distracting amount of CSS. Perfect skimmability that drew me in to read in more detail. And a perfect conclusion that I just happen to agree with.

susam 1y ago

Outside of professional software jobs, for me code is also a form of personal expression. I code for work. But I also code for fun. Although there is some overlap in the experience between the two, the two forms of coding are wildly different. I probably don't need to explain much about coding at work. It's not just about "writing code". It's about software engineering. It's a responsibility that requires professionalism, discipline, and care. The real focus isn't the code itself. The focus is first and foremost on the business problems. Good code, good algorithms, and solid engineering practices are simply means to an end in solving those problems effectively. But in my free time, coding is something else entirely. It's a form of art and expressing myself. It all started with IBM PC Logo and GW-BASIC, where writing code to draw patterns on the screen was my way of creating art. While some kids painted with brushes and watercolours, I painted with code and CGA colours. Coding in my leisure time is a way for me to create, explore, and express my silly ideas without the constraints of business requirements or deadlines. It's where I get to experiment, play, and bring ideas, no matter how trivial or pointless, to life purely for the joy of it. Occasionally, these small experiments evolve into something I'm comfortable sharing online. That's when I write up a README.md, add a LICENSE.md, commit the code to my repo, and push it to GitHub or Codeberg to share with others hoping fellow like-minded individuals might find joy or utility in these experiments. Fortunately, I've been able to release a few projects that have gathered small communities of users. For example, my last such project was https://susam.net/myrgb.html https://susam.net/myrgb.html which, as far as I can tell, has got about 50 to 60 daily users. It's a small number but it's not nothing. While coding for leisure has always been enjoyable, the presence of these small communities has also been quite motivating. I think it is possible to do both with some luck. While coding for work happens almost everyday by necessity, I think coding for leisure can also happen along with it, provided other circumstances of life don't get in the way. If circumstances allow, it is certainly possible. It doesn't have to happen everyday. I know everyone has got responsibilities in their lives. I've got too. But it can happen once in a while, when a spark of inspiration strikes. For me, it usually happens on some weekends when I get an itch to explore an idea, something I feel compelled to implement and see through.

joshdavham 1y ago

I've actually been thinking about this a bunch the last couple of months and it's a truly painful dilemna! At a high level, for those of us who code outside of work, we're constantly faced with the choice of either working on something that we find interesting vs. something that would further our careers. It's awesome when they align, but it can be painful when they don't. I sometimes feel guilty when I choose to work on passion projects... but if I instead choose work on professional development, I feel like my creative soul starts to wither a bit.

cladopa 1y ago

If you have issues with having proper material compensation for your work, you will have to work on those first before anything else. Doing necessary work, even when you don't like is for me the definition of "work". You should also learn to manage it, if you work too much, you should take a break. You don't need to get rich as "billionaire", but if you are good at your work it is reasonable that you will get "millionaire", because you gave society tens of times more value that what you got. That is not something to be ashamed of. If you got the money gambling(taking it from someone else) you can feel ashamed, but not if you made money generating wealth with effort and work.

cortesoft 1y ago

Am I the only coder who has never really felt the desire to "be my own boss" and get rich from coding? I was so against the idea, actually, that I avoided majoring in CS because I didn't want to ruin my favorite hobby by doing it professionally. It wasn't until a few years after I graduated with my philosophy degree and couldn't find a career that I decided to try writing code for a living. It's been great for me for almost 20 years now, and thankfully I still love to code for fun even though I do it all day professionally, but I have not felt the pull to try to form my own startup and try to get rich. My favorite part of coding is having a problem and then figuring out how to solve it with the tools I have. I love working as a programmer because that is what I do all day, and someone pays me really good money to do it. And I don't have to worry about all the other stuff like business models or funding or getting customers or talking to people, I just get a problem and do my favorite thing to solve it. And I have more time to do other things because I am not hustling or trying to get rich.

dalmo3 1y ago
You're in the 99%. It's just that the other 1% write all the blog posts.
mastazi 1y ago
I'm the same, I started coding as a kid on an Amiga 500. But I never thought it would become my job. I studied a degree in communication and worked as a journalist first, then as a press agent. Later I decided to move to a different country where I could not work in PR or journalism due to language barriers so I went back to programming. Eventually I even went back to Uni and got a degree in IT because I felt that I had some knowledge gaps due to being self-taught. Going back to uni in my mid 30s was actually a cool experience (despite the fact that I had to study & work at the same time).
999900000999 1y ago
I like programming for my friends. The moment money gets involved it goes to shit. Idea guys want you to program for free , and offer you something like 1% vested over 5 years. They have you sign NDAs before you start working. The ideas are all really really stupid. I do have my ideas, but I’m also humble enough to just accept I’ll probably never make any real money. I self taught my way straight to 6 figures ( back in 2016 when that still meant something). That’s enough really…

hateful 1y ago

> I watched an Amazon Prime knockoff of Silicon Valley called Betas Not sure you can call it a knockoff if it came out a year earlier!

CollinEMac 1y ago

As I get older I find myself embracing the angel more and more. I've met a lot of programmers that got what the devil was offering by only listening to the angel.

alganet 1y ago

Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming. It's not fun. The activity is not an enjoyable act of entertainment. It's stressful, time consuming and miserable. The result is what matters. You did something. Learned something. For you, not because it was in some work planning. It provides catharsis. That sort of catharsis does not exist in some work related environment. It never will, unless stars align magically, which they almost never do. I am highly skeptic of this "code is fun" perspective. Always was. That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake. Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale. It is for your own good. It prevents companies from hiring con men, it prevents young folk from being drawn to a career they will despise, it prevents massive loss of investment. I wanted to code for catharsis. To learn. To feel I made something. Wanted, past tense. These "code for fun" people were serious contributors to my burnout.

bitwize 1y ago
> Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming. I don't think that at all. I think he just has a different perspective on it than you do. Whilst your perspective is valid, some people actually do enjoy the work of coding, especially if they can do so in an environment where they can immediately check intermediate results and use those to shape their coding trajectory as they work, creating a tight OODA loop. (Hi, Lisp!) > That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake. > Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale. On this we can agree. I think that for programming to be fun it has to be something you want to see come into fruition, i.e., not any random thing someone else wants to see, done to their schedule by their rules. Good tech companies -- game studios in the 90s, Google in the early days, even Microsoft in the early days -- knew how to make the golden goose as comfortable as possible while slipping out the back with the eggs. But in the late 90s, Jim McCarthy's "Beware of a guy in a room" became iron gospel among management types, who interpreted it as meaning that developers must be subjected to a panopticon in which what they are doing at all times is tracked and analyzed by the chain of command going up to the C level. Hence Scrum, SAFe, and all that malarkey, and we've forgotten how to "let 'em cook" as the kids say now.

gmoque 1y ago

Coding is another tool, just the same way you buy a piece of furniture online you can also build it yourself, if you have the tools and skills. It's up to you how you want to use your resources (time and money). Coding is a tool to solve data problems, I've been doing it for close to two decades now and I still find it fulfilling and fun. Many years ago I used to think, I love my job that I would do my job for free ... I was wrong! Others will paid for doing things you find fun, make sure you know your worth.

delusional 1y ago
I understand your point, and I don't disagree with it as a matter of utility. It just doesn't capture all of what code is. I find computer systems beautiful. A system of parts interacting in a complex dance to process data. Each part effortlessly modifyable and reusable, executable by the generic machine people already own. I love the puzzle of putting data together, of shaping it in main memory, and the joy of finding that previous shaping makes the current problem easier. The joy of finding a hidden algebra or transitivity. All of these things go beyond the "tool" view of software and touches the "art" view. A painter doesn't find the painting useful, they find it beautiful. I would be writing software, even if I want paid. I would however be working on vastly different software, and I think that's the OP's point.
GolDDranks 1y ago
> Coding is another tool Maybe to you. For some of us, it's also a form of self-expression, a hobby or a lifestyle. In my experience coding for money and coding for fun is a very different experience. I know my worth, but I am also free to do whatever I want out of my working hours.

IvanK_net 1y ago

I have no idea why they mention coding. It is the same in any kind of job. You can bake cakes for fun, make music for fun, write poems, novels, play chess for fun, practice sports, grow potatos ... At a certain stage, you realize that in order to be able to do only that job, you must make someone pay you for it. You must do it in a way (or in a volume) which makes others happy. The fact that it makes you happy is not enough anymore. I don't think there is an angel and a devil. It is still the same thing. If you like the result of your work, there is a high chance that others will like it. You don't need to change what you do by a 100%. Changing it by 5% - 10% is often enough.

blahgeek 1y ago
I think it's more common because one doing only coding can get paid reasonably. On the contrary, few people who "bake cakes for fun, make music for fun, write poems, novels, play chess for fun, practice sports, grow potatos" can get paid enough for a living, so that's usually not an option to consider. (Which is the reason that I find us coding people very lucky.)
- Juliate 1y ago
  > only coding can get paid reasonably If you happen to work for a company that's big enough to pay reasonably. And even that is still a very temporary accident of times. There was a time with plenty (comparatively to today) of tailors, living very reasonably, because there was a demand, and the means. Today, you're lucky if you manage to find one that's in your city, and even more if he/she's not too expensive (that is, compared to ready-made stuff).
  - varjag 1y ago
    Come on, coding is universally at a premium compared to other trades. Naturally you wouldn't have a FAANG salary at an outsourcing farm overseas but it'll certainly provide you with comfortable living by local standards.
    - 1y ago

ankurdhama 1y ago

When you start coding and start having fun, please remember that the "fun" doesn't apply to coding as profession. The same goes for any other profession. Doing something for fun vs professionally are two different worlds.

xnickb 1y ago
Confidently wrong. Life is a bit more nuanced than that. Look at any popular open source project and tell me not a single contributor was having fun while writing it. I can give you examples of very high quality open source projects where I know for a fact that the person/team behind them were just having fun.
- ankurdhama 1y ago
  Let me clarify what I mean by for fun vs professionally. For fun means you make decisions based on "That feature would be fun to implement". Professionally means you make decision based on "That's what good for business". Based on these definitions most of the open source projects don't fall under "professionally" category.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    Aside from maybe a handful of projects that got lucky squatting on the right name (e.g. left-pad), are there any popular open source projects that have become popular on "that would be fun to implement" rather than "that's what is good for business" (understanding the user, answering issues, implementing requested features, etc.)? The chances of your fun overlapping the exact market need seems rather slim. Even among unpopular open source projects, I expect most of them are published as a way to demonstrate ability to employers rather than "that would be fun". The latter projects do exist, but it is surprising if they make up most open source projects.

ringeryless 1y ago

I am concerned about the authors propensity for taking pop cultural memes very very seriously. Somewhere in here is a lightbulb waiting to go off and a complete human ready to be born. Maybe consider going camping.

queueueue 1y ago

For me, this has somehow gotten to a point where I keep questioning myself if I’m actually doing something out of curiosity or because of the idea I could share something with other people or some other motive. So I’m not even sure what I’m curious about anymore, which might sound ridiculous.

ArcHound 1y ago
Hey, don't worry. In my book, if you do something because you want to share it, then you're still interested in it enough (or curious about if you want). You just like to share, and that's okay. It's also a good filter for topics. Naturally, the topics of interest of others seem more valuable. I am doing a similar thing on my blog. Generally, each topic must pass the test of: is this useful to at least some? And being commited to write means I can clarify and organize my thoughts. So nothing to worry about, keep on experimenting and sharing.

wzhudev 1y ago

This is basically what I am thinking about in the past few months. When everybody is talking about AI but you don't buy it.

Thorrez 1y ago

>In a perfect world, I could listen to the angel and solely get by having fun and working on things I enjoy. But if I didn't listen to the devil from time to time, I wouldn't stay up to date with the latest technologies, and as a result I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. Why do you need to listen to the devil to stay up to date with the latest technologies? You don't need to work on something monetizable to stay up on the latest technologies. You can work on something for fun and incorporate some of the latest technologies to learn about them at the same time.

alkonaut 1y ago

Do many people hobby code with that entrepreneur mindset thing? Or sit down to play guitar thinking they want to make a hit and feeling bad if they just noodle some cover songs? What a miserable existence that must be. How do you get that way? Should we blame LinkedIn or what is it?

stepbeek 1y ago
I had my own company previously and I found it hard to detangle that commercial mindset from hobby coding. I’m employed now and find it much easier to code purely for fun. If I played guitar professionally then I’d probably find it hard to not think about new pieces in the context of a gig-worthy repertoire.
- p0nce 1y ago
  This is real, anytime I code I'm obsessed about RoI
makeitdouble 1y ago
This is a reaction that I had for a time, until realizing that outside of just "some people are different", there is also the wider protestant work ethic putting work at the center of their life, and assigning a moral value to productive work. I'm describing it in too vague terms to be appropriate, and most people might be thinking it in that way, but I genuinely think there's a part of it in a lot of the "I did this paid service as a weekend project" mentality.
cess11 1y ago
Many people think that they just have to write some code and execute it publicly and they'll somehow be provided for. That can sully recreational coding since it makes it hard to see that it will most definitely not be directly profitable without a lot of non-coding labour. Doing business is demanding, you've got compliance and documentation and code needs to be intelligible to other people and finances and marketing and planning and customer support and all that domain knowledge that allows you to catch more than one or two paying customers because your solution works in most of a sector of society and so on. With this in mind you'll have an easy time seeing that your for fun, recreational project is not a business and that you can't think of it as one until users are starting to force you to by being so many or offering money for additional services.

pacifika 1y ago

The angel is human curiosity and the devil here is capitalism society pressures. be you.

defanor 1y ago

> But if I didn't listen to the devil from time to time, I wouldn't stay up to date with the latest technologies, and as a result I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. It appears to imply that new technologies do not count as fun, which may be the case for the author, but not generally. And there are indeed fewer open vacancies requiring older (decades old) technologies exclusively, with vacancies often including currently-hyped technologies in addition to established ones, which opens more options and potentially leads to a higher salary if one employs those newer or hyped ones, but I guess that it is quite possible to pay the bills while using mostly the older ones, too.

rorylaitila 1y ago

I've thought that recently there are things I'm willing to build, things I'm willing to sell, and things I'm willing to support. My desire for each is not in equal measure. There are vastly more things I will build for myself then I can sell, and there are a lot of things I like selling but I hate supporting. Only when I feel the trifecta do I release it to the public. The rest I tell myself I can just enjoy the process of building and throwing it away if I want, it doesn't matter.

TrackerFF 1y ago

At least for me, I enjoy trying to solve problems using code. Kind of like how some people enjoy solving cross-words, math problems, and what have you. As for the larger things that could potentially lead to a business, those types of problems usually come from something I encounter at work. If I'm stuck using software that sucks, identify some obvious demand, etc.

milquen 1y ago

…man never regards what he possesses as so much his own, as what he does; and the labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner, than the listless voluptuary who enjoys its fruits…In view of this consideration, it seems as if all peasants and craftsman might be elevated into artists; that is, men who love their labour for its own sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and inventive skill, and thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character, and exalt and refine their pleasures. And so humanity would be ennobled by the very things which now, though beautiful in themselves, so often serve to degrade it…But, still, freedom is undoubtedly the indispensable condition, without which even the pursuits most congenial to individual human nature, can never succeed in producing such salutary influences. Whatever does not spring from a man’s free choice, or is only the result of instruction and guidance, does not enter into his very being, but remains alien to his true nature; he does not perform it with truly human energies, but merely with mechanical exactness… …we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is. https://readmorestuff.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/extracts-from-the-limits-of-state-action-by-wilhelm-von-humboldt-1792/ https://readmorestuff.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/extracts-from...

firemelt 1y ago

its the opposite for me, I always choose to have fun, instead making mone, 0 motivation to chase the later. I wish I tend to my devil side :(

kgeist 1y ago

For me personally, there's no dilemma. I was landed a pretty good, high-paying job after showing my pretty sophisticated pet projects I made for the fun of it. In my free time, I keep making pet projects out of "curiosity, enlightenment, and purity", and if some have potential, I showcase them to the employer and they're integrated into the product, or as a dev tool. Builds a good resume, too. Maybe I'm lucky that my employer is open to new ideas/projects. So, both the angel and the devil are satisfied :)

coev 1y ago
Do you keep ownership over those tools when they're integrated into your employer's product? What are the terms on your employment contract? This can get muddy.

gitroom 1y ago

i feel this deep, it's way too easy to forget why i started coding in the first place

simpaticoder 1y ago

But shipping is in service of curiosity, though! There is nothing more fascinating than watching your work come into contact with real users. They will find error modes and use-cases you never imagined. If you code for fun and no-one ever sees it, then you'll never have this experience.

mihaaly 1y ago

My angel and devil have reverse roles. My angel wants me to do my side hustles and produce well made products. For the users and myself. But he sits behind me in the corner now with a bitter face. Neglected and left out. The devil took over making me work for money, sell my hours for the high bidder, for current income. So I could provide for the three most precious ladies in the world: my wife and daughters. The devil turned out to be not a powerful figure but a ruthless but pity, sweaty salesguy selling crap that I stuck in. Need to carry on with the technology mandated in the position, outdating as we speak, making me increasingly unemployable elsewhere without the 10 years hands on coding experience in 15 kinds of 2 - 7 years old technology, with leadership and mentor abilities of course as an essential trait required. Willing to be enthusiastically agile the hell out of it! For free pizza and fruit bowl! No good path ahead.

skor 1y ago

I code purely for fun, creating programs that generate and compose music. Sometimes I hit the record button and capture the results. Here's one of my latest recordings, if anyone's interested: https://lowveld.bandcamp.com/album/etches https://lowveld.bandcamp.com/album/etches. Musically I think this belongs in the underground - and should stay there. I'm very interested in the theory behind software & music. Over the years I've mostly focused on the engineering side, but maybe one day I'll document and publish more about it too.

acureau 1y ago
I'd love to read some of these programs and/or read about the process of writing them. "Etches 04" is awesome, it sounds like I'm looking out at some post-apocalyptic cityscape. Please do drop a line if you publish anything.
Ylpertnodi 1y ago
Interested. Would like to hear more (of the music, and what you code).

LandR 1y ago

Man, I work 8-4 Mon-Fri. As soon as 4 rolls around, I'm done with the money making portion of the day and the rest is just entirely fun stuff. I couldn't care less if what I'm doing isn't ever going to make money, it's just fun / interesting / satisfying curiosity. I run - but I know I'm never going to make money running. I climb - but I know I'm never going to make money climbing. I code for fun on my side projects - same deal. That work mindset gets turned off hard at 4pm.

dripdry45 1y ago
Fellow climber/coder... Where you climbing these days?
- thelaxiankey2 1y ago
  Sick now, but till last year it was Mt woodson/tahquitz rock/the eastern sierra. When I lived in the bay it was pinnacles, obscurities in the Santa Cruz mountains, and lovers leap/Yosemite/etc
Fripplebubby 1y ago
I think part of the author's point is that, specifically if you are _coding_ for fun, it is much harder to "turn off" that part of your brain that analyzes it from a business perspective. It's not as if you can close one IDE at 4 and open another IDE at 4:01 at put yourself in a different mindset.
- blenderob 1y ago
  Of course you can. (I mean many of us can.) I've been doing it for years. I'm surprised that because you find it hard to "turn off" that part of your brain, it must be so for everyone else. It isn't. There are many of us who code for fun and do it with a totally different mindset with no "business thoughts" in mind.
  - Fripplebubby 1y ago
    Speaking for myself, the author's post resonated with me in two ways - both that it's hard to turn off the business side of the brain ("Could this side project be a startup? Should I build it this way just in case I decide to do that later?") but also that I find it hard to turn off the manager brain ("Is this really the right order to do things? Is this the most valuable thing I could be doing?"), too, other people in the thread are mentioning thinking about opportunity cost to be interfering with their ability to commit to side projects (and also to actually _enjoy_ doing them).

didip 1y ago

This resonates greatly with me. It used to be such a torture (in my own mind) to constantly trying to come up with a new hustle. But not anymore. As I got older and after fatherhood, I have learned that balance is everything. Including valueing my time in having fun doing productive things. If the hacking side project gives me tremendous enjoyment, then it is a win already both from happiness and the “job training” aspect. As it so happened, I just hang out with my little cousins who are into robotics and so glad that my side projects in the past helped me connect with them, and I was able to give valuable advice. That was a big win for me. Also, I have learned the value of providing stability for my own family. Something that the childless me never appreciated. Throwing away stability to start a startup has a steep cost these days.

kelsey978126 1y ago

There's more than code to build a startup. I have found the best way for me to avoid burnout or alternatively feeling like i am behind is to set very high goals. Find a lifetime goal. Maybe it's making a startup, maybe it's something else. Everything you do should mostly fit into some super long term plan that could take an entire lifetime's worth of work. If you are doing creative or personal projects, these build skill and experience which will be needed by that long term project. Martial artists train by punching trees. To build micro fractures in the hand bones and increase the density and strength of these bones. Go punch your trees.

some1else 1y ago

I just want to kick back and code like it's 199NaN

0xbadcafebee 1y ago

Sounds like a conflict between wanting to do something you love, and wanting success and fame. Nothing wrong with either of these things, or trying to have both. But what you might be missing is that the way you pursue these things has a much larger impact on the outcome than simply whether you make an attempt or not. You might have been reading all those stories of startups, and now you're stuck in a box shaped like all those stories. That you have to start a startup at all, or that you have to go about it in the way those stories told. You might think that's your only path. But the only limits in this world are the ones we put on ourselves. Meditate on what you really want, at your core. Start the wheels turning of thinking of ways to get those things that aren't immediately obvious or don't seem likely. Consider a world in which you didn't have fear, doubt, anxiety, or other kinds of limitations. Which path would you choose? What are all the ways you might use to walk that path? You don't need to know the whole path to start walking on it.

kelnos 1y ago

I feel like there's some middle ground that OP is missing. Perhaps intentionally, but that might not be for everyone. I worked for software/hardware companies for 21 years. Some were stable income for me, but nothing amazing. A few were startups where I worked hard but they didn't go anywhere (fortunately I earned a stable, market-rate income before they failed). One turned out to be reasonably life-changing, and I'm very lucky for that. On and off over that period of time I worked on open source projects, some that didn't go anywhere, some that have been successful. Right now I'm building something to try to sell. I'm not going to take any VC money or pursue high growth. I'm not chasing the latest whiz-bang AI whatever. I'm building a fairly boring product (that is still fun for me to build), using the tech stack that I want, to the standards of quality that I want. Right now I'm working hard on it, but the goal is that, once it's "done" and has customers (fingers crossed I manage to attract paying customers), I'll be spending no more than 10 hours a week on it (and hopefully less on average). If it "only" gets to $500k/yr in revenue or so, after some number of years running it, I'll consider that a fantastic success. If I can run the entire thing on one or two VMs, and it never grows past that infra-wise, that's a fantastic success. You can listen to both the angel and the devil and still control your own destiny, outside of the scraps your employer will throw at you. Who knows, though, maybe this idea of mine won't work. But I'm happy I'm giving it a try.