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Still, their point was directionally correct. London has 1397 electric buses and Moscow has over 2300. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_Lo

Still, their point was directionally correct. London has 1397 electric buses and Moscow has over 2300. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_buses_in_Moscow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_buses_in_Moscow

mmooss 2y ago
Nobody doubts EVs are more popular now. You should see the numbers for ICE buses too. The discussion is about the future.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Do you expect any problem to appear for batteries at the next century or so? What king of change do you expect on the future for it to not repeat the lessons we learned at the present? Fossil fuels are on the way out because we do expect problems. Do you have something similar for EVs?
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Efficiency is always a problem. EVs wouldn't exist if they weren't more efficient than ICE vehicles, but there is still a cost to EVs - power generation, manufacturing, waste .... A new technology could increase efficiency.
kleiba 2y ago
Germany has this recurring fixation on hydrogen for whatever reason. Even when Tesla had already long hit the mainstream market, German car manufacturers were still arguing against EVs in favor for hydrogen-powered cars that would theoretically be vastly superior. Well, we all know how that turned out for Mercedes, BMW, and the so on.
- mmooss 2y ago
  If people followed that reasoning, there would be few EVs now because EVs had been tried for decades without success; so were airplanes and AI. If people quit as easily as you say hydrogen car manufacturers should, we wouldn't have much of anything.
  - addicted 2y ago
    This is true but this analysis fails to consider why hydrogen receives so much interest, because similar reasoning could indicate we should be spending more on every other potential fuel source, including biofuels, and maybe running engines on cellulose. And the fact that hydrogen is most popular in Germany and Japan should provide a clue. These are countries with well established ICE car industries and therefore shifting to hydrogen provides the least disruption when it comes to their car manufacturing as well as infrastructure. The disproportionately high interest in hydrogen is likely not being driven because of a belief in its future success, but likely more as a hope to continuing the status quo.
  - kleiba 2y ago
    Right. But at some point, you should acknowledge reality. That's why I'm not currently trying to collect VC money for a new start-up on BetaMax recording technology.
  - philjohn 2y ago
    Yes - but Hydrogen vehicles have not proven to match or even beat EV's in a lot of key metrics that matter. The biggest one is efficiency. 40% efficient is one figure I saw, versus 80% for EV's. Yes, you can refill quicker, but time to "refuel" EV's is dropping precipitously as well, and it's just all around safer than tanking around highly combustible liquid gas.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      > Hydrogen vehicles have not proven to match or even beat EV's in a lot of key metrics that matter Not yet. That is the nature of technological R&D - if we had the answers, we wouldn't be doing R&D. AI before the last decade or so didn't beat other computer technologies in key metrics; should they have stopped developing it? Fusion power doesn't beat fission and other options in key metrics; solar didn't beat other sources in key metrics, including costs, ... - should humanity have stopped developing those things?
stevesimmons 2y ago
And Minsk in Belarus has more than 1000 electric buses, of which 150 to 180 are powered by supercapacitors rather than batteries!

mmooss 2y ago

Nobody doubts EVs are more popular now. You should see the numbers for ICE buses too. The discussion is about the future.

marcosdumay 2y ago
Do you expect any problem to appear for batteries at the next century or so? What king of change do you expect on the future for it to not repeat the lessons we learned at the present? Fossil fuels are on the way out because we do expect problems. Do you have something similar for EVs?
- mmooss 2y ago
  Efficiency is always a problem. EVs wouldn't exist if they weren't more efficient than ICE vehicles, but there is still a cost to EVs - power generation, manufacturing, waste .... A new technology could increase efficiency.

kleiba 2y ago

Germany has this recurring fixation on hydrogen for whatever reason. Even when Tesla had already long hit the mainstream market, German car manufacturers were still arguing against EVs in favor for hydrogen-powered cars that would theoretically be vastly superior. Well, we all know how that turned out for Mercedes, BMW, and the so on.

mmooss 2y ago
If people followed that reasoning, there would be few EVs now because EVs had been tried for decades without success; so were airplanes and AI. If people quit as easily as you say hydrogen car manufacturers should, we wouldn't have much of anything.
- addicted 2y ago
  This is true but this analysis fails to consider why hydrogen receives so much interest, because similar reasoning could indicate we should be spending more on every other potential fuel source, including biofuels, and maybe running engines on cellulose. And the fact that hydrogen is most popular in Germany and Japan should provide a clue. These are countries with well established ICE car industries and therefore shifting to hydrogen provides the least disruption when it comes to their car manufacturing as well as infrastructure. The disproportionately high interest in hydrogen is likely not being driven because of a belief in its future success, but likely more as a hope to continuing the status quo.
- kleiba 2y ago
  Right. But at some point, you should acknowledge reality. That's why I'm not currently trying to collect VC money for a new start-up on BetaMax recording technology.
- philjohn 2y ago
  Yes - but Hydrogen vehicles have not proven to match or even beat EV's in a lot of key metrics that matter. The biggest one is efficiency. 40% efficient is one figure I saw, versus 80% for EV's. Yes, you can refill quicker, but time to "refuel" EV's is dropping precipitously as well, and it's just all around safer than tanking around highly combustible liquid gas.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > Hydrogen vehicles have not proven to match or even beat EV's in a lot of key metrics that matter Not yet. That is the nature of technological R&D - if we had the answers, we wouldn't be doing R&D. AI before the last decade or so didn't beat other computer technologies in key metrics; should they have stopped developing it? Fusion power doesn't beat fission and other options in key metrics; solar didn't beat other sources in key metrics, including costs, ... - should humanity have stopped developing those things?

stevesimmons 2y ago

And Minsk in Belarus has more than 1000 electric buses, of which 150 to 180 are powered by supercapacitors rather than batteries!