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Giving student aid beyond just free classes enables students who would otherwise need to spend time working to support themselves to instead attend school to ge

Giving student aid beyond just free classes enables students who would otherwise need to spend time working to support themselves to instead attend school to get a better life. Generally that's considered a good thing, not worthy of the disdain you're displaying.

brainwad 2y ago
Well, the problem is obvious in hindsight, and perhaps even in foresight. Giving out free money attracts these scammers, who crowd real students out of not only the aid money, but also the actual class. So the net effect is to make it harder to access community college, not easier. Perhaps I'm naive, but it seems like it would be a lot easier to avoid the scammers if they limited first time students to in-person classes.
philipallstar 2y ago
This is the first-order, emotional reaction, yes, but policy should be made based on its full effects, not just its sales pitch's popularity with first-order-emoting voters.
- intended 2y ago
  The second order effects of cheap education are immense, ranging from longer life span, better health, stronger economies, amongst just a few. The matter at hand, specifically, is one about how our ability to verify is overwhelmed by our ability to generate content. This is playing out with recruitment, bug reports, complaint forms - and going all the way up to sophisticated fraud.
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    The third order effect of handing out money for nothing, is the chicks coming home to roost as anti-education movements tear down the nation.
    - lores 2y ago
      Europe as a whole manages to hand over money for nothing to would-be students in need without any anti-education backlash. An anti-education stance is the cause of protesting education subsidies, not their consequence.
      - spwa4 2y ago
        Yeah right. Now go visit East Germany, no shortage of anti-education anti-intellectual attitudes.
    - mcphage 2y ago
      > The third order effect of handing out money for nothing, is the chicks coming home to roost as anti-education movements Anti-education movements may be a third order effect for this, but it's a first order effect for other groups who are deliberately pushing anti-education efforts.
    - gosub100 2y ago
      No one's "anti education", except universities bloated with administration and professors who publish false data for the gov bux.
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      This. People didn't agree on immigration levels yet they thought people fleeing horror should have shelter from the horror and be given asylum. The Democrats seemed to let the asylum process be abused as a general immigration process and now the US is having a huge pullback/backlash on asylum seekers.
    - intended 2y ago
      As someone else pointed out, yeah - anti education movements are a third order effect of how succesful education is at not making people vote for religious causes and non scientific positions. The threat of its efficacy, is why, since 1960 onwards, a large chunk of the western world has been figuring out how to bend psychology, rhetoric, and media forces to undermine "Ivory tower" intellectuals. Yes, a succesful movement has been undermined because it posed a threat to people with the money to spend to fight their battles. This is old news.
  - philipallstar 2y ago
    It's not cheap education. What is the point in deliberately changing the topic? It's about paying people to consume free education.
    - patcon 2y ago
      No. It's a Sybil attack on subsidy to help ppl of different means equally make room for education in their lives. No one is "making money" unless they are committing fraud. They are being put on an equal playing field -- the subsidies are seemingly directed at the individual, but are terraforming [of the field] in nature, not for enrichment of the individual. I was able to get educated with full focus on that task, because my family prioritised saving for my education. I want others, without such privilege, to have access to such opportunity. If you choose to frame it also that "your parents paid you to consume free education", then so be it. But let's not pretend the state is doing something strange or against its core mission here
      - spwa4 2y ago
        Read the article. The students complained about aren't after the opportunity.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  "Giving out student aid for online classes is just ridiculous." This is also a sales pitch, playing to the far-right. (virtue signaling)
  - philipallstar 2y ago
    You think virtue signalling is playing to the far right? Care to define... any of your terms?
    - dbspin 2y ago
      One can virtue signal on either political spectrum, obviously. Phatic, performative language and gestures to indicate allegiance and supplication are possible for any given philosophy. Bumper stickers are literally virtue signalling.
    - Octoth0rpe 2y ago
      The concept of virtue signaling does not imply a particular group that the signal is intended for, and absolutely can be for the far right.
      - red-iron-pine 2y ago
        hell, the concept comes out of signaling Christian Virtue and taking steps to look holier than thou
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      The fact you think the "libs" are the only ones who can virtue signal says a lot about you. The far-right have an entire playbook of dog whistles just for virtue signaling.
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      As others pointed out. "Virtue Signaling" is often a term of derision placed from the right onto the left. But is often done just as much on the other side. It's part of the 'right's vocabulary of labels for the left. I just like to point out all the times when the 'right' take part in "virtue signaling". Right wing , political or religious, often take part in "virtue signaling". Yet, seem unconscious of it, un-ware of their own biases, because to them they are not 'signaling' they are just speaking 'truth'. But of course, they are not. "God is real, hence I'm not just 'signaling' when I say it to my fellow believers".
SecretDreams 2y ago
I'm mixed. If we lived in a utopian world where money isn't real, I'd agree. Reality is California has major budget issues. Offering the classes for free is already enough in the current climate. Working while going to school is not uncommon or isolated to California. Full time work while going to school is excessive - but that is also a California COL issue that the state needs to actually tackle. But it gets worse the more they don't address their deficits. Debt begets debt and it always drives up COL.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  > Full time work while going to school is excessive ... For a healthy, driven person, without other major responsibilities (or a time-sucking internet addiction)? No, it really is not excessive. And that's assuming that "going to school" is also full time. Taking just one or two classes per term is an old tradition at community colleges.
  - 9283409232 2y ago
    > Taking just one or two classes per term is an old tradition at community colleges. Not for people fresh out of high school. You are usually trying to graduate with a Bachelor's in 4 years so you do full-time at community college for 2 years to get your AA-T and then transfer to a university for your last 2 years. California in particular has a program that lets you transfer get a guaranteed transfer to any state university or participating private university once you get your AA-T.
  - archievillain 2y ago
    If you completely ignore the section of the population that needs aid, then yes, there's no need for aid. Might as well stop building wheelchair ramps, because for a healthy person with no locomotory issues the stairs are just fine.
  - SecretDreams 2y ago
    I mean, I worked 20ish hours a week while doing engineering and I did well relative to my peers, but I can still recognize it was a lot. Full time in that world for 4-5 years would have been miserable. Just because I can do something doesn't mean it's something I would want or would suggest for the rest of the population.
ethagknight 2y ago
You present hypothetical scenario of up against the reality they getting paid to “attend” online class is a total farce, diluting the value of a diploma or degree from that community college system well also stealing away resources.
- 9283409232 2y ago
  This is your opinion and it is not a hypothetical scenario. Many people including myself received grant aid to attend classes both in person and virtual. If it wasn't for that flexibility I likely wouldn't have be able to go.
  - ethagknight 2y ago
    I’m glad it worked for you, however this is not an opinion, it’s a worldview, and it is unethical and unscrupulous to use government funding to pay people to remotely attend a community college course. This is several steps beyond the intent of a community college, which is simply to provide free education for working people in the community.
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      It is an opinion and one I disagree with.
      - ethagknight 2y ago
        And your position is a demand for someone else to pay you to attend class?
        9283409232 2y ago
        Yes if my taxes can be used to "unethically" and "unscrupulously" build roads I didn't ask for then I'm fine with taxes being used to pay for education.
stogot 2y ago
Not really. I worked various jobs in community college to support myself. Community college is designed around that fact with early morning and late night classes, but these are ONLINE classes. You can’t say that they have to work at that time because there is no time slot
- danaris 2y ago
  "Online" doesn't mean "on-demand." My wife got her Masters from Harvard recently through online classes, and every class had...I want to say about 4 hours a week of actual scheduled, synchronous class sessions over Zoom, in addition to the coursework required.
  - stogot 2y ago
    I’ve done years of online coursework and I’ve never had that nor heard of that at a community college. Harvard must be doing their own thing. I guess if you pay tens of thousands for a degree you’re stuck with onerous practices. Community college is explicitly to help local students who are generally working jobs, so these onerous scheduled sessions are not reasonable
olalonde 2y ago
It's not about whether money frees up time-that's obvious. That argument could be used to justify handing out money to literally anyone. The issue is this aid is easily gamed, as the article shows, and strong incentives to pursue education already exist, like better job prospects. Not to mention that it's hard to justify asking less-educated workers to subsidize the upward mobility of those who may soon out-earn them.
palmotea 2y ago
>> If attending these classes was even just free, this wouldn't be a problem. Giving out student aid for online classes is just ridiculous. > Giving student aid beyond just free classes enables students who would otherwise need to spend time working to support themselves to instead attend school to get a better life. Generally that's considered a good thing, not worthy of the disdain you're displaying. I think the idea would be if someone's getting paid to go to school so they don't have to work, then they should go to in-person classes. Online classes probably shouldn't be an option. If there's profit available and no personal cost (in either time or money), scammers will exploit the program as described ("fake students bent on stealing financial aid funds").

brainwad 2y ago

Well, the problem is obvious in hindsight, and perhaps even in foresight. Giving out free money attracts these scammers, who crowd real students out of not only the aid money, but also the actual class. So the net effect is to make it harder to access community college, not easier. Perhaps I'm naive, but it seems like it would be a lot easier to avoid the scammers if they limited first time students to in-person classes.

philipallstar 2y ago

This is the first-order, emotional reaction, yes, but policy should be made based on its full effects, not just its sales pitch's popularity with first-order-emoting voters.

intended 2y ago
The second order effects of cheap education are immense, ranging from longer life span, better health, stronger economies, amongst just a few. The matter at hand, specifically, is one about how our ability to verify is overwhelmed by our ability to generate content. This is playing out with recruitment, bug reports, complaint forms - and going all the way up to sophisticated fraud.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  The third order effect of handing out money for nothing, is the chicks coming home to roost as anti-education movements tear down the nation.
  - lores 2y ago
    Europe as a whole manages to hand over money for nothing to would-be students in need without any anti-education backlash. An anti-education stance is the cause of protesting education subsidies, not their consequence.
    - spwa4 2y ago
      Yeah right. Now go visit East Germany, no shortage of anti-education anti-intellectual attitudes.
  - mcphage 2y ago
    > The third order effect of handing out money for nothing, is the chicks coming home to roost as anti-education movements Anti-education movements may be a third order effect for this, but it's a first order effect for other groups who are deliberately pushing anti-education efforts.
  - gosub100 2y ago
    No one's "anti education", except universities bloated with administration and professors who publish false data for the gov bux.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    This. People didn't agree on immigration levels yet they thought people fleeing horror should have shelter from the horror and be given asylum. The Democrats seemed to let the asylum process be abused as a general immigration process and now the US is having a huge pullback/backlash on asylum seekers.
  - intended 2y ago
    As someone else pointed out, yeah - anti education movements are a third order effect of how succesful education is at not making people vote for religious causes and non scientific positions. The threat of its efficacy, is why, since 1960 onwards, a large chunk of the western world has been figuring out how to bend psychology, rhetoric, and media forces to undermine "Ivory tower" intellectuals. Yes, a succesful movement has been undermined because it posed a threat to people with the money to spend to fight their battles. This is old news.
- philipallstar 2y ago
  It's not cheap education. What is the point in deliberately changing the topic? It's about paying people to consume free education.
  - patcon 2y ago
    No. It's a Sybil attack on subsidy to help ppl of different means equally make room for education in their lives. No one is "making money" unless they are committing fraud. They are being put on an equal playing field -- the subsidies are seemingly directed at the individual, but are terraforming [of the field] in nature, not for enrichment of the individual. I was able to get educated with full focus on that task, because my family prioritised saving for my education. I want others, without such privilege, to have access to such opportunity. If you choose to frame it also that "your parents paid you to consume free education", then so be it. But let's not pretend the state is doing something strange or against its core mission here
    - spwa4 2y ago
      Read the article. The students complained about aren't after the opportunity.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
"Giving out student aid for online classes is just ridiculous." This is also a sales pitch, playing to the far-right. (virtue signaling)
- philipallstar 2y ago
  You think virtue signalling is playing to the far right? Care to define... any of your terms?
  - dbspin 2y ago
    One can virtue signal on either political spectrum, obviously. Phatic, performative language and gestures to indicate allegiance and supplication are possible for any given philosophy. Bumper stickers are literally virtue signalling.
  - Octoth0rpe 2y ago
    The concept of virtue signaling does not imply a particular group that the signal is intended for, and absolutely can be for the far right.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      hell, the concept comes out of signaling Christian Virtue and taking steps to look holier than thou
  - 9283409232 2y ago
    The fact you think the "libs" are the only ones who can virtue signal says a lot about you. The far-right have an entire playbook of dog whistles just for virtue signaling.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    As others pointed out. "Virtue Signaling" is often a term of derision placed from the right onto the left. But is often done just as much on the other side. It's part of the 'right's vocabulary of labels for the left. I just like to point out all the times when the 'right' take part in "virtue signaling". Right wing , political or religious, often take part in "virtue signaling". Yet, seem unconscious of it, un-ware of their own biases, because to them they are not 'signaling' they are just speaking 'truth'. But of course, they are not. "God is real, hence I'm not just 'signaling' when I say it to my fellow believers".

SecretDreams 2y ago

I'm mixed. If we lived in a utopian world where money isn't real, I'd agree. Reality is California has major budget issues. Offering the classes for free is already enough in the current climate. Working while going to school is not uncommon or isolated to California. Full time work while going to school is excessive - but that is also a California COL issue that the state needs to actually tackle. But it gets worse the more they don't address their deficits. Debt begets debt and it always drives up COL.

bell-cot 2y ago
> Full time work while going to school is excessive ... For a healthy, driven person, without other major responsibilities (or a time-sucking internet addiction)? No, it really is not excessive. And that's assuming that "going to school" is also full time. Taking just one or two classes per term is an old tradition at community colleges.
- 9283409232 2y ago
  > Taking just one or two classes per term is an old tradition at community colleges. Not for people fresh out of high school. You are usually trying to graduate with a Bachelor's in 4 years so you do full-time at community college for 2 years to get your AA-T and then transfer to a university for your last 2 years. California in particular has a program that lets you transfer get a guaranteed transfer to any state university or participating private university once you get your AA-T.
- archievillain 2y ago
  If you completely ignore the section of the population that needs aid, then yes, there's no need for aid. Might as well stop building wheelchair ramps, because for a healthy person with no locomotory issues the stairs are just fine.
- SecretDreams 2y ago
  I mean, I worked 20ish hours a week while doing engineering and I did well relative to my peers, but I can still recognize it was a lot. Full time in that world for 4-5 years would have been miserable. Just because I can do something doesn't mean it's something I would want or would suggest for the rest of the population.

ethagknight 2y ago

You present hypothetical scenario of up against the reality they getting paid to “attend” online class is a total farce, diluting the value of a diploma or degree from that community college system well also stealing away resources.

9283409232 2y ago
This is your opinion and it is not a hypothetical scenario. Many people including myself received grant aid to attend classes both in person and virtual. If it wasn't for that flexibility I likely wouldn't have be able to go.
- ethagknight 2y ago
  I’m glad it worked for you, however this is not an opinion, it’s a worldview, and it is unethical and unscrupulous to use government funding to pay people to remotely attend a community college course. This is several steps beyond the intent of a community college, which is simply to provide free education for working people in the community.
  - 9283409232 2y ago
    It is an opinion and one I disagree with.
    - ethagknight 2y ago
      And your position is a demand for someone else to pay you to attend class?
      - 9283409232 2y ago
        Yes if my taxes can be used to "unethically" and "unscrupulously" build roads I didn't ask for then I'm fine with taxes being used to pay for education.

stogot 2y ago

Not really. I worked various jobs in community college to support myself. Community college is designed around that fact with early morning and late night classes, but these are ONLINE classes. You can’t say that they have to work at that time because there is no time slot

danaris 2y ago
"Online" doesn't mean "on-demand." My wife got her Masters from Harvard recently through online classes, and every class had...I want to say about 4 hours a week of actual scheduled, synchronous class sessions over Zoom, in addition to the coursework required.
- stogot 2y ago
  I’ve done years of online coursework and I’ve never had that nor heard of that at a community college. Harvard must be doing their own thing. I guess if you pay tens of thousands for a degree you’re stuck with onerous practices. Community college is explicitly to help local students who are generally working jobs, so these onerous scheduled sessions are not reasonable

olalonde 2y ago

It's not about whether money frees up time-that's obvious. That argument could be used to justify handing out money to literally anyone. The issue is this aid is easily gamed, as the article shows, and strong incentives to pursue education already exist, like better job prospects. Not to mention that it's hard to justify asking less-educated workers to subsidize the upward mobility of those who may soon out-earn them.

palmotea 2y ago

>> If attending these classes was even just free, this wouldn't be a problem. Giving out student aid for online classes is just ridiculous. > Giving student aid beyond just free classes enables students who would otherwise need to spend time working to support themselves to instead attend school to get a better life. Generally that's considered a good thing, not worthy of the disdain you're displaying. I think the idea would be if someone's getting paid to go to school so they don't have to work, then they should go to in-person classes. Online classes probably shouldn't be an option. If there's profit available and no personal cost (in either time or money), scammers will exploit the program as described ("fake students bent on stealing financial aid funds").