3 ms·

I guess that Harvard probably does not need the Feds as much as the Feds need Harvard but I'm glad they are standing up to the Fascists. I'm going to have to se

I guess that Harvard probably does not need the Feds as much as the Feds need Harvard but I'm glad they are standing up to the Fascists. I'm going to have to see what NYU is doing now.

nonethewiser 1y ago
What does the Federal Gov need Harvard for? Harvard gets 16% of its funding from them - what outweighs that on the aide of the Federal government?
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  The tax revenues from the $1.3T company that arose from their online yearbook? Lawyers? Doctors? Medical research? Thousands of highly educated graduates annually? 161 Nobel prize winners?
  - nonethewiser 1y ago
    Its not clear what the effect no Harvard would be on those metrics. And all of those are necessarily in Harvards best interest to maintain too. This is compared to a direct payment to sustain operations which the government is saying they may not be in favor of. But its not like Harvard would say ”it may not be in our interest to produce successful people anymore.”
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Harvard isn't the first to be targeted, nor will they be the last. The American university system is undeniably impactful on American success over the last century. It would be tough to put any sort of exact number on it, but we can absolutely say "a shitload".
      - nonethewiser 1y ago
        >The American university system is undeniably impactful on American success over the last century. Merit based reforms would only help. What kind of DEI programs did Harvard have 100 years ago?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > And merit based reforms would help continue this. I look forward to some. This ain't it.
        nonethewiser 1y ago
        Ill settle for agreeing in principle that Harvard should be merit based
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        foldr 1y ago
        > What kind of DEI programs did Harvard have 100 years ago? Amongst others, legacy admissions and discrimination against Jews, Catholics and non-whites. Let’s not pretend that Harvard’s admissions process, or American society more generally, was some kind of perfect meritocracy in 1925.
  - cm2187 1y ago
    Don't confuse the credential factory with the skills and quality of the underlying students. Harvard is little more than a toll booth for students who were already smart and over-achieving. It's not like the teaching is extraordinary.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Harvard does substantially more than teach undergrads.
      - cm2187 1y ago
        > Lawyers? Doctors? Medical research? Thousands of highly educated graduates annually?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        Lawyers and doctors aren't undergrads. Medical research depends heavily on faculty and postgraduate folks. Only some of their thousands of annual graduates are undergrads - about 1/3 of them, per Wiki.
        cm2187 1y ago
        I am confused. Who says credentials only apply to undergrads?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        I said they do more than teach undergrads, to which you re-quoted me questioningly. Include postgraduate folks and they're still doing a lot more than just teaching and credentialing. Places like Harvard output research, too.
        kelipso 1y ago
        A university research lab is controlled by usually one professor or a very small number of professors. They can decide to move to another university and take the lab with them.
- bitmasher9 1y ago
  I wonder how many Harvard graduates work for either Trump or the federal government.
  - dclowd9901 1y ago
    Most if not all of his cabinet (surprisingly) have an Ivy League background. Not sure if that's an endorsement on them, or an indictment on Ivy League schools
- andrewaylett 1y ago
  One may expect that the funding is paying for research, such that the government finds the trade to have positive expected value.
- matwood 1y ago
  Until recently, the US brand was where exceptional people wanted to go study and work. If you want to send the world's best and brightest to other countries that's fine, but it will have negative long term impacts on the US.
duxup 1y ago
The GOP / Trump administration shows no real focus on employing experts, Trump shows no curiosity about anything. They're slashing research and science across the board department by department. They employ anti science people as heads of departments that require science. I don't think the GOP & Trump thinks they need anything from Harvard other than agreeing to impose first amendment violations on others on behalf of the GOP and Trump.
amalcon 1y ago
The thing to remember is that these grants are their research budget. The endowment is largely earmarked for educational projects. Your average university professor is there because they want to do research, not because they want to teach - so the research budget is critical for educating as well. I assume Harvard has a plan for dealing with this dynamic. They have some extremely smart people there, so I don't doubt they've found a way.
FloorEgg 1y ago
Genuinely curious: what part of the federal government's letter to Harvard seems fascist to you? Is the government asking a university to shift their bias away from skin color diversity to viewpoint diversity fascist? Is there a historical parallel? Or is it just the fact that the government is asking for reform, and any reform request would be considered fascist? If so, do you also consider the DEI reform requests fascist?
- nairteashop 1y ago
  Let's set aside specific terms like "fascist" for now. Below is one of the demands from the government: > the University shall commission an external party, which shall satisfy the federal government as to its competence and good faith, to audit the student body, faculty, staff, and leadership for viewpoint diversity, such that each department, field, or teaching unit must be individually viewpoint diverse. Do you feel this is ok for the government to demand of an educational institution? This isn't about specific political ideologies. If the Biden administration had threatened to withhold funding from a university because, for example, their hiring policies weren't left-leaning enough or something, it would be equally outrageous.
  - FloorEgg 1y ago
    Thank you, Let me start by saying that I am not American and I am not your enemy. Also, I am genuinely trying to understand the truth about these matters, with an open mind to the possibility that it's messy and complicated and I might not be capable of understanding it. I hope that provides context for what follows. Honestly, I am not sure if it's okay. It reminds me of the anti-racist movement, in that the action almost feels like it's anti-fascist. It's using a fascist action (use of state power to enforce conformity), to undo a fascist policy (suppression of political opposition and dissent). This reminds me of anti-racism, which uses one type of racism to compensate for a different type of past-racism. What I find interesting is the very last statement in your post. I am not aware of anything Biden did, but it does seem like Obama did something very similar with the DEI policies forced on universities which came with funding implications for non-compliance. It was a different time, everyone was upset about the great financial crisis of 2008, and on their surface I am sure these policies sounded like a good thing. In the end though these policies were very much a form of facism in that it was a state sponsored effort to suppress political opposition. This probably sounds like I am defending the political views of racists, but really I am defending the political views of people who believe leadership roles should be filled based on the merit of the individual and their ability to take care of those in their charge, and not based on the color of their skin, their gender or sexual preferences. As I have tried to unpack all this, the perspective that is growing for me is that for the last 20 or so years both administrations have been taking steps towards fascism while hiding their fascist actions behind intentions that sound anti-fascist. If this perspective is even partially correct, it would explain why so much of this has been so confusing for me.
bakugo 1y ago
> I'm glad they are standing up to the Fascists Today I learned that demanding an end to racial discrimination makes you a fascist. I swear this word becomes more meaningless by the day.

I guess that Harvard probably does not need the Feds as much as the Feds need Harvard but I'm glad they are standing up to the Fascists. I'm going to have to see what NYU is doing now.

nonethewiser 1y ago

What does the Federal Gov need Harvard for? Harvard gets 16% of its funding from them - what outweighs that on the aide of the Federal government?

ceejayoz 1y ago
The tax revenues from the $1.3T company that arose from their online yearbook? Lawyers? Doctors? Medical research? Thousands of highly educated graduates annually? 161 Nobel prize winners?
- nonethewiser 1y ago
  Its not clear what the effect no Harvard would be on those metrics. And all of those are necessarily in Harvards best interest to maintain too. This is compared to a direct payment to sustain operations which the government is saying they may not be in favor of. But its not like Harvard would say ”it may not be in our interest to produce successful people anymore.”
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Harvard isn't the first to be targeted, nor will they be the last. The American university system is undeniably impactful on American success over the last century. It would be tough to put any sort of exact number on it, but we can absolutely say "a shitload".
    - nonethewiser 1y ago
      >The American university system is undeniably impactful on American success over the last century. Merit based reforms would only help. What kind of DEI programs did Harvard have 100 years ago?
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        > And merit based reforms would help continue this. I look forward to some. This ain't it.
        nonethewiser 1y ago
        Ill settle for agreeing in principle that Harvard should be merit based
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - foldr 1y ago
        > What kind of DEI programs did Harvard have 100 years ago? Amongst others, legacy admissions and discrimination against Jews, Catholics and non-whites. Let’s not pretend that Harvard’s admissions process, or American society more generally, was some kind of perfect meritocracy in 1925.
- cm2187 1y ago
  Don't confuse the credential factory with the skills and quality of the underlying students. Harvard is little more than a toll booth for students who were already smart and over-achieving. It's not like the teaching is extraordinary.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Harvard does substantially more than teach undergrads.
    - cm2187 1y ago
      > Lawyers? Doctors? Medical research? Thousands of highly educated graduates annually?
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        Lawyers and doctors aren't undergrads. Medical research depends heavily on faculty and postgraduate folks. Only some of their thousands of annual graduates are undergrads - about 1/3 of them, per Wiki.
        cm2187 1y ago
        I am confused. Who says credentials only apply to undergrads?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        I said they do more than teach undergrads, to which you re-quoted me questioningly. Include postgraduate folks and they're still doing a lot more than just teaching and credentialing. Places like Harvard output research, too.
        kelipso 1y ago
        A university research lab is controlled by usually one professor or a very small number of professors. They can decide to move to another university and take the lab with them.
bitmasher9 1y ago
I wonder how many Harvard graduates work for either Trump or the federal government.
- dclowd9901 1y ago
  Most if not all of his cabinet (surprisingly) have an Ivy League background. Not sure if that's an endorsement on them, or an indictment on Ivy League schools
andrewaylett 1y ago
One may expect that the funding is paying for research, such that the government finds the trade to have positive expected value.
matwood 1y ago
Until recently, the US brand was where exceptional people wanted to go study and work. If you want to send the world's best and brightest to other countries that's fine, but it will have negative long term impacts on the US.

duxup 1y ago

The GOP / Trump administration shows no real focus on employing experts, Trump shows no curiosity about anything. They're slashing research and science across the board department by department. They employ anti science people as heads of departments that require science. I don't think the GOP & Trump thinks they need anything from Harvard other than agreeing to impose first amendment violations on others on behalf of the GOP and Trump.

amalcon 1y ago

The thing to remember is that these grants are their research budget. The endowment is largely earmarked for educational projects. Your average university professor is there because they want to do research, not because they want to teach - so the research budget is critical for educating as well. I assume Harvard has a plan for dealing with this dynamic. They have some extremely smart people there, so I don't doubt they've found a way.

FloorEgg 1y ago

Genuinely curious: what part of the federal government's letter to Harvard seems fascist to you? Is the government asking a university to shift their bias away from skin color diversity to viewpoint diversity fascist? Is there a historical parallel? Or is it just the fact that the government is asking for reform, and any reform request would be considered fascist? If so, do you also consider the DEI reform requests fascist?

nairteashop 1y ago
Let's set aside specific terms like "fascist" for now. Below is one of the demands from the government: > the University shall commission an external party, which shall satisfy the federal government as to its competence and good faith, to audit the student body, faculty, staff, and leadership for viewpoint diversity, such that each department, field, or teaching unit must be individually viewpoint diverse. Do you feel this is ok for the government to demand of an educational institution? This isn't about specific political ideologies. If the Biden administration had threatened to withhold funding from a university because, for example, their hiring policies weren't left-leaning enough or something, it would be equally outrageous.
- FloorEgg 1y ago
  Thank you, Let me start by saying that I am not American and I am not your enemy. Also, I am genuinely trying to understand the truth about these matters, with an open mind to the possibility that it's messy and complicated and I might not be capable of understanding it. I hope that provides context for what follows. Honestly, I am not sure if it's okay. It reminds me of the anti-racist movement, in that the action almost feels like it's anti-fascist. It's using a fascist action (use of state power to enforce conformity), to undo a fascist policy (suppression of political opposition and dissent). This reminds me of anti-racism, which uses one type of racism to compensate for a different type of past-racism. What I find interesting is the very last statement in your post. I am not aware of anything Biden did, but it does seem like Obama did something very similar with the DEI policies forced on universities which came with funding implications for non-compliance. It was a different time, everyone was upset about the great financial crisis of 2008, and on their surface I am sure these policies sounded like a good thing. In the end though these policies were very much a form of facism in that it was a state sponsored effort to suppress political opposition. This probably sounds like I am defending the political views of racists, but really I am defending the political views of people who believe leadership roles should be filled based on the merit of the individual and their ability to take care of those in their charge, and not based on the color of their skin, their gender or sexual preferences. As I have tried to unpack all this, the perspective that is growing for me is that for the last 20 or so years both administrations have been taking steps towards fascism while hiding their fascist actions behind intentions that sound anti-fascist. If this perspective is even partially correct, it would explain why so much of this has been so confusing for me.

bakugo 1y ago

> I'm glad they are standing up to the Fascists Today I learned that demanding an end to racial discrimination makes you a fascist. I swear this word becomes more meaningless by the day.