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U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mistakenly Deported

• thrill 1y ago
  There was no "mistake" in the entire process.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• internet_rand0 1y ago
  El Salvador means "the savior"... simply put, not for him. this man did not get saved by this version of the savior... he got wrecked by El Salvador rather than saved
  • ranger_danger 1y ago
    Protestors actually do refer to it as "No Salvador".
• sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Innocent person who was kidnapped and trafficked by the US government*
• UncleMeat 1y ago
  This really is the end of everything. Troops deployed domestically. Citizens blackbagged and sent to gulags for the rest of their lives with no process. There is no more law one this position is reached.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • OutOfHere 1y ago
    In fairness, the person was not a US citizen. To my knowledge, he was an El Salvador citizen. I am not defending the action. The beginning of the end will be if this starts happening to US citizens, although that hasn't happened.
    • UncleMeat 1y ago
      That is not fairness. If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag.
      • OutOfHere 1y ago
        [flagged]
        • johnnyanmac 1y ago
          I'm really tired of this song and dance at this point of being alarmist for trusting every little thing Trump says he'll do, no matter how crazy. This is the exact opposite of the Boy who Cried Wolf. How many sheep need to be eaten before you trust the shepard? Or you know, the wolf who keeps saying "I'm going to eat these sheep"?
          • OutOfHere 1y ago
            It is the act of not jumping to conclusions that makes us better than him. I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. If we jump the gun, we are no better than him.
            • deleted 1y ago
              [deleted]
            • johnnyanmac 1y ago
              How is it "jumping to conclusions" to take what the president of thr United States says at face value? >I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. He already did. Thars the issue. Visa holders are already citizens. Do I need to to show you thr footage of a college woman being kidnapped off the street by un-badged men?
• saagarjha 1y ago
  Honest question, what recourse does someone in this situation even have? Would the ICC take this case? Are there any penalties that would (in theory) apply to either country?
  • femiagbabiaka 1y ago
    > Honest question, what recourse does someone in this situation even have? None. > Would the ICC take this case? Maybe, not that it would matter much given that even member states refuse to enforce rulings if they run contra to U.S. goals. > Are there any penalties that would (in theory) apply to either country? No.
  • dfxm12 1y ago
    You might be interested in the Hauge Invasion Act to get the US perspective on what would happen if the ICC tries to persecute a US official: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
    • stouset 1y ago
      Prosecute, not persecute :)
  • KerrAvon 1y ago
    The US is not subject to the ICC; not sure about El Salvador.
  • hypeatei 1y ago
    The US doesn't participate in international law / the ICC. Not that it would matter anyway, both are sovereign countries that can just go "nuh uhh"
    • femiagbabiaka 1y ago
      I mean, hypothetically, Bukele could be arrested if he was a defendant in such a suit... except for the fact that ICC member states regularly let wanted war criminals pass through their airspace, or withdraw from the ICC entirely in order to harbor wanted war criminals. In effect the ICC is the USCC, and therefore limited to doing/enforcing things in the interest of the U.S. at any given time.
• ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  Given that it was a "mistake" that they deported (kidnapped) him, will anyone be facing prison time for not remedying it? Personally, I don't believe that he is still alive and they're just delaying matters so that they can bury that news and pin the blame on El Salvador.
  • readthenotes1 1y ago
    Allegedly... "White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller also chimed in, saying: "So it's very arrogant, even for American media to suggest that we would even tell El Salvador how to handle their own citizens. As a starting point, as two immigration courts found that he was a member of MS-13," " https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/el-salvador-president-visit-white-house-discuss-deportation-prison-plans https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/el-salvador-president...
    • UncleMeat 1y ago
      Not allegedly. Agents of the government have given multiple sworn statements in court that removing him from the country was both an error and in violation of the law. I suppose that the solicitor general can say that they perjured themselves. Much more reasonable is that Miller is a lying sack of shit spewing lies on TV.
      • mapt 1y ago
        This was/is a kidnapping. Not a deportation. We have processes for deportation. Miller is attempting to cover up evidence of a kidnapping, and impede justice (not to mention Justices). This is a crime.
    • matwood 1y ago
      The PoS Miller says that so Fox News has a clip to play. Meanwhile in court under oath they say the exact opposite, admitting it was an 'administrative error' Garcia was deported at all.
    • const_cast 1y ago
• i80and 1y ago
  Not to be blunt, but isn't this the end of habeas corpus, if the federal government can black bag anybody they want to without a trial, and then maintain they have no ability to obey judicial orders to return them?
  • treetalker 1y ago
    That will be moot once Trump suspends habeas corpus.
    • matwood 1y ago
      Assuming they pick up and send someone out of the country quickly, it's already de facto suspended now.
  • stego-tech 1y ago
    Yes, and that was the point all along.
  • csolorio 1y ago
    They're using the excuse that he's not a citizen. Slippery slope.
    • hobs 1y ago
      They simply have to not validate you are a US citizen, no rights for anyone means no rights for everyone.
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    • sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      It's not a slippery slope, it's blatantly unconstitutional already.
    • fanatic2pope 1y ago
      They have already said they want to send US citizens there too. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/white-house-confirms-trump-is-exploring-ways-to-deport-us-citizens_n_67f580abe4b0a5ea5c7608d2 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/white-house-confirms-trump-is...
• perihelions 1y ago
  What happens when the US starts "deporting" US citizens to the custody of foreign strongmen? As is he is repeatedly saying he intends to do. Would anything change, or will it continue the same way—SCOTUS orders Trump to "facilitate" citizens' access to "due process"; foreign Trump affiliate says "no", and that's that. (?) - "President Trump just said he was open to sending American citizens convicted of violent crimes to President Bukele’s prison in El Salvador. Trump had a similar response when Bukele first offered to jail convicted American criminals in February. “I’m all for it,” Trump said, adding that his attorney general was studying whether the idea was legally feasible. “If it’s a homegrown criminal, I have no problem, no,” he said, adding: “I’m talking about violent people. I’m talking about really bad people.”"
  • ty6853 1y ago
    The US has both deported and extra-judicially drone striked innocent US citizens. Your theory has already been tested.
  • stego-tech 1y ago
    That's correct. The Constitution as-written gives the Judiciary no ability to implement its own orders, forcing it to rely on the Legislative or Executive Branches to enforce compliance. With the Legislature abdicating its own checks and balances, it effectively gives the Executive complete control. The only remaining options aren't pleasant, but the short-list: * The Legislative Branch turns on the Executive and begins stripping its power through laws or impeachment (unlikely, given the sycophants in both parties who championed this outcome) * States secede from the USA, citing the lack of legitimacy of the current Federal Government in its flouting of the Constitution (unlikely, given the spineless cowards in most State Governments more preoccupied with becoming the next President or Senator themselves) * The people revolt, waging a civil war against themselves and finding a new path forward I really don't think most folks understand how bad this is. People like me are accused of being hyperbolic or alarmist, but the current situation really is equivalent to a CEO firing his Board (Congress), locking out auditors (the Judiciary), and jailing dissident workers or contractors (this case), all while letting his buddies raid the accounts under the guise of reducing inefficiencies (DOGE and Technoligarchs). The closest parallels really are Nazi Germany, Maoist China, and Stalin's Russia, and none of those had a "happy ending". In the short term, trust is obliterated. In the long term, we're a crumbling empire who has to sacrifice far more than we will ever benefit, just to get an equivalent seat at the table again. For the next several generations (inclusive of the current ones), times are going to be bleak.
• KerrAvon 1y ago
  No due process for noncitizens means no due process for citizens either. We're all now at the mercy of ICE/CBP goons. If they have a bad day, simply being a straight white dude ain't gonna save anyone.
  • 0xEF 1y ago
    > If they have a bad day, simply being a straight white dude ain't gonna save anyone. This is the thing to remember as the current regime uses this El Salvadorian prison as a beta-testing gulag. We'll soon see more hints that they will be built within our borders, and all actions leading up to that are conditioning the population for acceptance of this idea, especially for the folks that support the regime. Thing is, even they will not be safe. The rules will never be made clear save for "if you're not with us, you're against us," so people who thought they were being loyal will start getting snatched up along with the rest of the dissenters, agitators and whomever else they don't like.
    • UncleMeat 1y ago
      Yep. Fascism always needs an enemy. If it succeeds at completing its mass violence against the current enemy it will simply redefine its current allies as enemies. "They'll never come for me" inevitably fails.
• madhacker 1y ago
  http://archive.today/7IfP5 http://archive.today/7IfP5
• hypeatei 1y ago
  I recall the President of El Salvador tweeting that this was being turned into what is essentially a labor camp ("zero idleness program") to pay back the costs of constructing and running CECOT. Moreover, if I'm keeping track of the cases correctly, this person was specifically protected from being returned to El Salvador because of persecution. Disgusting.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• bananapub 1y ago
  he wasn't deported, he was legally in the US and then randomly got kidnapped by the US Federal Government, who then paid the El Salvadorian government to him put in a super maximum security prison for no reason, indefinitely. the US government is now refusing to comply with a court order to bring him back. the US media has absolutely no ability (or interest) in grappling with the reality of the situation they have helped cause.
  • ranger_danger 1y ago
    > indefinitely According to who? Why do you think this is somehow the case? The contract between the two countries is only for 1 year, and that doesn't mean everyone will even stay there that long. In what scenario does indefinite detention make any realistic sense even for the best-case scenario of its intended purpose i.e. rightfully-deported violent criminals? Do you honestly think the US is actually sending anyone to indefinite detention who has not received a life sentence in court? I'm not saying what's going on isn't wrong or that there aren't other huge problems with it, but your response to me just seems even more out of touch with reality than the current situation itself. The biggest problem I personally have with this is the administration's complete lack of empathy. Not once has anybody in the executive branch apologized for wrongly deporting anyone, made any attempt at saying they should be brought back, or that they were going to try, or that they even wanted to try. Instead they're seemingly actively doing everything they can to prevent lifting any useful fingers whatsoever.
    • sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      > The contract between the two countries is only for 1 year, and that doesn't mean everyone will even stay there that long. Where did you see this contract? I follow quite a few lawyers in this space who have been asking to see said contract and AFAIK it hasn't been produced. Can you link to it please? > Do you honestly think the US is actually sending anyone to indefinite detention who has not received a life sentence in court? Uhh... yes? This person hasn't just not received a life sentence, they weren't even charged.
      • 1y ago
• ty6853 1y ago
  He's been in jail for a month. If he isn't dead or seriously injured, there is a high likelihood he has had to join MS-13 or Barrio 18 (listed terrorist organizations) just to survive while locked up with hardened gang members. Which according to the DoJ would make him ineligible for withholding of removal. Does anyone know if this is true? That could create a real catch-22, toss someone into a prison full of gang members, make them join a foreign terrorist organization to survive, then invalidate their withholding because they are now a terrorist.
  • Hamuko 1y ago
    They had no proof that he was a terrorist in the first place, so I'm not really sure if they're concerned about him joining or not.
    • ty6853 1y ago
      But forcing him to join by surrounding him with gang members who would otherwise harm him, might be effective in killing his withholding of removal order, even if they have to drag him back to get it done. 1) "This guy is gang member." 2) Toss in jail, surrounded by the gang members he tried to escape. (Even if El Salvador thing gets stopped, same plan works in US) 3) Gang forces him to join 4) Now part of terrorist organization 5) "Terrorists are ineligible for orders of withholding."
      • kyleee 1y ago
        [flagged]
    • UncleMeat 1y ago
      Well, he did wear some chicago bulls gear (I wish I were kidding, this is legitimately one of the pieces of evidence offered by the government).
  • yread 1y ago
    I've wondered since the start of this thing: why didn't anyone object to labelling MS-13, an ordinary gang, "a terrorist organization"? Especially, since even Trump admitted they did it so that they can go harder after them? I.e. not because they are actual terrorists, but just so they could apply the harsher terrorism laws against them. "We're using 'terrorism' which gives us extra strength. We've done a great job with MS-13, but now we're stepping it up to an even higher level."
• sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  This is an even worse intentionally created jurisdictional black hole than Guantanamo Bay. Abduct someone. Move them faster than their family, friends, and legal counsel can possibly follow. Get them on a plane to El Salvador. Put them in the CECOT hole. And then say "Aw geez, they're in Salvadorian jurisdiction now, nothing we can do." Yes, Abrego Garcia is a Salvadorian citizen. He also had been explicitly granted protected status to remain in the US. Nothing about this process prevents its application against US citizens. The detainee is pushed through a one-way valve faster than due process can be applied. If we do not protect the rule of law for immigrants who have been granted the right to stay here, we will also lose the rule of law for citizens.
  • readthenotes1 1y ago
    And don't forget about "extreme renditions" when people just disappeared
  • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    This has been abused in the past and no one cared. Held in illegal prison conditions in the US? Take it to court, they just move you and you no longer have jurisdiction and the original illegal prison situation is never changed.
    • maujun 1y ago
      I am curious about researching these past cases, but am a bit busy. Do you have any links?
      • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        I no longer have access to Lexus but try searching using 'moot transfer loss/lack of standing/jurisdiction correctional facility'. US Prisons have sections of facilities so bad for potential mental damage inmates can only remain in them for 3 months max but nothing is done to enforce that limit. If inmates file and start to have success they do finally get moved but they then lose standing regarding the conditions (while other inmates are then put in the freed up unfit cell). The feds move jurisdiction strategically, not so much they lose 'good faith' from the courts but more than is acceptable when they are using it specifically to undermine access to the courts/civil rights, prevent rulings on cells/wings ruled unfit for more than short term, etc. And when transfered you get diesel therapy. Every new prison situation presents threat to life risks, so being introduced to potentially a dozen new situations (you get placed in a new prison situation each nights stopover) during transit is something US inmates try to minimize (unfortunately timed transfers (oops, BOP mistake, sorry, we didn't mean for you to miss meals, just a timing mistake) causing missing breakfast/dinner so you often get just a single bologna sandwiches/orange in a day, plus the whole pissing yourself, inability to wipe yourself because you are shackled, and you aren't getting unshackled to use the toilet on your 12 hour ride, etc, etc google Diesel Therapy). https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-deportation-detention-transfer-louisiana-trump/ https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-depor... https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/ https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/
• josefresco 1y ago
  > You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America. Hilary was only wrong about two things: It's not half of his supporters it's 100% and they're not "deplorables", they're monsters.
  • nancyminusone 1y ago
    3 things - "thankfully, they are not America" - they were.
• croes 1y ago
  Somehow this is even worse than blackbagging political opponents. Land of the free, home of the brave. One of the biggest US lies.
  • actionfromafar 1y ago
    The blackbagging political opponents comes a little later. The procudure must be beta-tested first to work out any kinks.
  • dfxm12 1y ago
    Peaceful protestors were already abducted in unmarked vans during Trump's first term: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
  • sebazzz 1y ago
    I'd wage you have to be pretty brave to go to the US though.
• bananapub 1y ago
  for the people having trouble keeping track, this is the end of due process for everyone, including US Citizens who might imagine they're immune - even if a slightly better US government didn't want to kidnap US Citizens, if there's no process, there's no chance to demonstrate your US Citizenness before you're in a slave labour camp in South America, where the US Government will lie and say they can't get you back from even if they wanted to.
• dfxm12 1y ago
  Related: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/military-contractors-prison-plan-detained-immigrants-erik-prince-00287208 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/military-contractor... As usual, beware of the military-industrial complex. Just like with Iraq, they will get what they want at the cost of the taxpayer. We will get nothing back but less stability.
• fzeroracer 1y ago
  This is a legitimate constitutional crisis. If the executive can just ignore the direct orders of the court and the rights of both citizens and residents by simply renditioning them to a foreign country without a trial then all of our systems and laws in place no longer matter.
  • readthenotes1 1y ago
    I was gonna give a "well actually Pres. Jackson" reply, but then I remembered Einstein's Law--what you know may not be so--and did a little research. So I have to "Well actually" my "Well actually" https://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2021/08/the-myth-of-andrew-jackson-vs-the-supreme-court/ https://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2021/08/the-myth-of-an...
  • soupfordummies 1y ago
    Yeah, seriously, unless I'm missing something if the Supreme Court unanimously checked him on this and he said "LOL, no, get wrecked" then, what? Like, that's the ball game. Total authoritarian power checkmate, right? I really hope I'm missing something here.
• jellicle 1y ago
  Trump to Bukele, 2025-04-14: Trump: they demand you, they love you, they love what you do... Bukele: {something about supporters} Trump: you know what I want to do? Home-grown criminals are next. {louder, to his senior staff in the room} I said HOME-GROWNS are next. The home-growns. You've got to build about five more places. Bukele, laughing: Yeah, that's fair! Alright. {big burst of laughter from Trump's staff} Trump: It's not big enough!
  • yubblegum 1y ago
    That is genuinely sinister.
• StefanBatory 1y ago
  I think they won't bring him back because he's already dead.
  • generj 1y ago
    The government said on Saturday he’s alive. It’s not worth speculating beyond that. From a purely cynical view, it’s better for the rule of law if he is alive as he can be a test case. If he’s dead, that is likely a different court case that could get assigned to a different more credulous or craven judge, plus burn out some time.
    • matwood 1y ago
      > The government said on Saturday he’s alive. Not exactly a group known to say anything factual.
      • generj 1y ago
        I don’t disagree but it at least raises the outrage from the court(s), media, and people if they were lying.
    • johnnyanmac 1y ago
      If you read the exact report, you realize why you want to be cynical. No one was actually met with, no was even called. The lawyer constantly use language to the effect of "to my understading" as means to try and distance himself as far from the case as possible to minimize any potential contempt/sanctions on his end. No one in America legitmately knows what's going on as of now. Maybe Trump does now but we know how that goes.
    • HaZeust 1y ago
      I wouldn't trust the El Salvador government to tell me that my shoes are untied.
  • StefanBatory 1y ago
    Follow-up: Alright, thankfully I was wrong.
• bwb 1y ago
  Who’s next? You? Me? Person down the street? Maybe…
• mapt 1y ago
  Are the demographics of gun sales going to suddenly shift dramatically? We are evidently deep into 'tree of liberty' stuff. We have been the most well-armed nation in the world for less actual material reason than most countries in the world have ever had. Not being disappeared into a concentration camp indefinitely seems like a justification for lots of people to go down fighting.
  • alabastervlog 1y ago
    Nobody's rising up unless the economy collapses to a significant degree, at which point everyone will.
    • mapt 1y ago
      I'm not expecting the average German to rise up against Hitler. Unfortunately. But the average German Jew? Maybe they have more incentive to be prepared? If guns are readily available? This isn't in the category of "to save their life, they started carrying weapons". This is in the category of collective defense - "To provide a deterrent, they started carrying weapons, just to make their abduction/murder costly". It doesn't make sense (for most) to sacrifice their lives just for their residency - getting deported is not the end of the world. But if the result is "You get thrown into a torture/slave/deathcamp and forgotten for the rest of your short life", that changes the calculus a great deal.
      • tastyface 1y ago
        “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” -Alexander Solzhenytsin
• womitt 1y ago
  [flagged]
• stego-tech 1y ago
  "You're being alarmist/hyperbolic/paranoid. That could never happen here." - Everyone, to people like me, since the post-9/11 PATRIOT Act days. Now that the reality is staring them in the face, suddenly folks want to know "what can we do?" Well, I'll tell you exactly what you can do: Nothing. I want to make this abundantly clear: you cannot undo this damage. You cannot roll back this clock. You cannot go backwards to a time before our elected leaders annihilated the global trust in American Empire, Business, and Institutions in favor of authoritarian ideals. We have had over thirty years of clear warnings about the outcomes of our policies, and nobody gave a fuck. The Old World is Dead (https://green.spacedino.net/the-old-world-is-dead/ https://green.spacedino.net/the-old-world-is-dead/), and you cannot get it back. What we can do now, is move as quickly as possible to distance ourselves from the failed American state, its authoritarian regimes, and the sycophant companies and entities that enabled it. That means ditching American media, American goods, American services, and American capital. It's going to mean ostracizing an entire country and its people, and accepting the suffering that will bring until a new country (or countries) arise from its ashes, willing to cooperate on the global stage once more. The only bright side is that countries who open their doors to persecuted minorities from America (LGBTQ+, non-white, neurodivergent, the disabled) are likely to reap immense brain gains as a result. America has failed, but the new world order has yet to be established - so if you want your country to have a seat at the table, now is the time to hoard (ex-)American talent and integrate them into your own society.
  • alabastervlog 1y ago
    The other day on here, I likened this to taking a bunch of steps toward a cliff, then jumping off, and then asking "what can I do to stop this?!" We're in the "free-fall" portion now. All we can do is wait and see how far we fall before striking the ground. The time to stop it was during any of the steps we took toward the cliff's edge.
    • kelseyfrog 1y ago
      I was specifically told that I was being dramatic and that it was all rhetoric and that it could never happen here. What gives?
• josefritzishere 1y ago
  Anyone else assuming he's deceased and it's much worse than they are letting on?
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    Yup. I genuinely don't see any reason to fight this hard against it othewise. Basically, something about the release or status of Garcia must be so horrid that even for Trump its a convictable scandal. so: 1. he'd dead and he pushed to make sure he had no due process 2. He's in such a near dead state that it would spark outcry that may even penetratie the propoganda. 3. any unedtied footage of the prisons would bring immediate allusions to concentration camps and make enough of the conservative size realize the US is falling into facism, As is, we may be risking a civil war over this.
• Chinjut 1y ago
  Flagged. Paints the administration (and thus Elon Musk and other Silicon Valley bigwigs by association) in a bad light.
• jellicle 1y ago
  So, HN has deleted this off the front page after about 20 minutes, and sure, they generally want to avoid "political" stories but the simple fact is that when a "political" story reaches a certain legal of magnitude it becomes the only thing of real importance. This is an issue of seismic importance for the tech world, or at the very least the US tech community, whether HN accepts that or not.
  • awnird 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • OutOfHere 1y ago
      I suspect what happens is that a sufficient number of users flag it away. I could be wrong, but I don't think the moderators have to be involved.
      • computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
• freitasm 1y ago
  [flagged]
• HaZeust 1y ago
  I want to explain something here that is of utmost importance to these developments. To be a citizen, you have 8th amendment protections against "cruel and unusual" punishment. As it is, it can be fiercely debated for involuntary servitude in foreign nations as "unusual" as it is, but prisons like the El Salvador one are innately cruel and unusual, watch any media or even El Salvador's brags about its techniques and methodologies last year. To be sent there - or to any other country to do a bid - is to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, to be subjected to such as an American citizen is unconstitutional. We, as citizens, really need to take a step back and decide if we're going to do something about this tyranny - and if we'll truly be our brother's keepers. If a post-Heller America in 2008 couldn't even agree on trusting the government to fairly regulate a constitutional right like guns, why trust them to define “heinous” or “violent” and not yank your 8th Amendment protections, as well? Once they can call you an “exception,” they can ship you off anywhere, even to some third-world prison, and say “tough luck.” That’s the same overreach we’re supposed to be wary of in the first place.
  • insane_dreamer 1y ago
    Don't US constitutional rights also apply to non-citizens on US soil?
    • HaZeust 1y ago
      Partially, but that's not my point, because now U.S. Citizens are being threatened - at least verbally - on U.S. Soil. Just 2 hours ago, a press conference talked about Trump wanting to do the same thing to home-grown citizens [1]. Today's practice with Garcia is not just an appeal to the "slippery slope" argument (in case anyone wants to call fallacy, I'm shutting them down ahead of time), it's an appeal to the fact that Trump is actualizing the slippery slope and discussing - literally less than a week later - how he wants to use this situation as precedent to do the same to home-grown criminals - American citizens. Also, Garcia was granted protected status to remain in the US, and had a separate court order saying he specifically couldn't be sent to El Salvador. They are no longer saying it like it is. Will they for us? 1 - https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1jz477g/trump_to_bukele_homegrowns_are_next_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1jz477g/trump_to_bukel...
• happytoexplain 1y ago
  Secondary to the primary horror of Trump's current attempts to apply this to citizens: It is also a direct attack on one of the other key points of societal failure, which is trust in police. Yes, yes, we were already way below where we need to be, but it was still the case that when an innocent non-black person encountered police, the majority of the time the feelings they might have ranged from trust to simple nervousness. An enormous caveat to law enforcement is that we trust officers with the power to order people to do things. If a cop orders me to come with them without a great explanation, I'm going to verbally protest, ask to see their badge, whatever - but I'm going to physically comply, because we agree to give cops this power, and, crucially, because there could be a legitimate reason, or an innocent mistake, and even absent that, I have a general feeling about the ceiling on the worst things that could realistically happen to me (since I'm a citizen, white, etc). But now, a bright line has been crossed. Anybody in a group that Trump supporters hate has to consider that there is a non-zero chance an encounter with the wrong type of law enforcement could end with being tortured in a foreign prison. In a nation governed by fear, my mind is not nearly as clear on priorities and risk assessment when the cop asks me to come with him without a rock solid explanation. That's dangerous, for everybody, including the police.
• tastyface 1y ago
  I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it for emphasis. The administration wants the power to enact summary justice on the street: immigrants, protestors, political rivals, same as every other authoritarian regime in the last century. Currently, there is no mandate to just execute people without due process. So the lovely humanist wonks in Trump’s orbit came up with this brilliant solution. Just send undesirables to Guantanamo-Salvador and pretend nobody has the jurisdiction to bring them back. Same result. In other words, when you read news like this, you should be reacting the same way as when you hear about third-world death squads lining up dissidents against the village wall and dumping their bodies in a well. The impact of the violence has been sanitized and laundered, but the net result is mostly the same.
• jauntywundrkind 1y ago
  El Salvador has 1 in 60 people in jail, up there with the worst of Stalinist Russian. If the US doesn't have control over who it sends there, the crimes of Trump & his ICE are far worse, far more in violation of the constitution. If this weren't horrific monstrosity to circumvent habeas corpus maybe perhaps this wicked act could scrape through the courts. Its just so fucked how much misanthropy is running the world. Hating other people is powering the growth of such deeply sick rises to power. I strongly recommend a tour of the Grievances of the Declaration of Independence. Ironically a document shown to Bukele before his situation down. The things being done are absolutely wild tyrant shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievances_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievances_of_the_United_State...
  • davidguetta 1y ago
    > El Salvador has 1 in 60 people in jail, up there with the worst of Stalinist Russian. and the president has a 91 approval rate, consistent with what you'd expect when you go from the murder capital of the world to the safest country in central america
    • rsynnott 1y ago
      Though, y'know, also consistent with Stalinist Russia. Generally, those sorts of approval ratings for an executive leader (you do see them sometimes for non-executive heads of state, though in that case they can be seen as less alarming) are a serious red flag; they're generally a dictatorship signal. No-one is _that_ popular.
      • davidguetta 1y ago
        Just watch any documentary on el salvador. Its has nothing to do with Stalinist russia and you have to WANT to believe it to say such nonsense
• jacquesm 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • locallost 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • johnnyanmac 1y ago
      Only the mods know who they are and a that point, deleting your account is a better move than leaving any potential internet footprints if they are truly scared.
  • zzleeper 1y ago
    It would be really interesting to see the list of people who flag these news. At this point, I mostly browse HN by clicking on COMMENTS so I can see the actual stories that got flagged (that always have to do about democracy being eroded by Trump)
    • geoka9 1y ago
      This one is also good: https://news.ycombinator.com/active https://news.ycombinator.com/active
• woggy 1y ago
  Why is this flagged? This is possibly one of the most IMPORTANT stories in tech - no one will will want come to the US anymore.
  • cmurf 1y ago
    It's an automated system and it's being gamed, I assume, by people who want this to succeed.
    • dfxm12 1y ago
      That's not a complete answer, as mods can unflag stories. If they wanted it to be unflagged, it would be unflagged.
    • chimpanzee 1y ago
      There's nothing stopping moderators, owners or the founder from fighting the gaming or at least making a public statement addressing the destruction of the society which has benefited them so greatly. But alas...true values are revealed in times of trouble. This community is becoming a moral embarrassment and nearly not worth participating in any longer.
      • Freedom2 1y ago
        As dang said, > what it proves is that users will flag unsubstantive flamewar posts on Hacker News, regardless of the topic or the commenter's position on the topic. This is a good thing! I think it has to pass the moderators bar for acceptance: is this just antoher "MOT", or will it generate "curious" discussion. Combine that with the fact that the HN site gets a lot of these submissions and it's sort of a phenomenon that I like to call "no one goes there, it's too crowded!".
        • chimpanzee 1y ago
          "Curious" discussion requires a free and open society and a sense of personal security. If that doesn't exist, then no one will dare make statements online that could result in persecution in the real. If they want to protect curious discussion, then they need to protect the society that fosters it. But again...they are free to make public statements denouncing what is happening without having to interfere in the moderation. Yet they have not done so. Why not? Instead, what do they ask for?...For people to "make good new things". But sometimes, obstruction or even destruction is just as "good". One doesn't watch a cancer grow and say "hmmm....what good thing can i create in response?" No. You fucking destroy the cancer. They don't want that though. "Good new things" are profitable. Destruction isn't. (Unless it's the destruction of moral constraints.) And worse yet, destruction will inevitably result in the downfall of some of their very close friends and acquaintances. It's no surprise they aren't saying anything. (I realize your response is neutral, or I at least read it as such, so please don't take my comment as an attack on you.)
• cmurf 1y ago
  Four Republican Congresscritters (House of Representatives), and four Republican Senators, could announce their intent to caucus with the Democratic party from this point forward, consistent with their oath and legal obligation to support and defend the Constitution against an emerging dictatorship. And then force a vote to change the leadership of the House and the Senate. It would require a simple majority vote. That's all. The power of the purse can be taken back by Congress. It can reorganize the committees and resume investigations and oversight where there has been none.
  • ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
    > The power of the purse can be taken back by Congress. Given that the executive branch is ignoring judicial branch rulings, and is ignoring legislation, what makes you think they won't ignore more legislation? When it comes to boots on the ground, donald and elmu's doge crew made sure they are the ones controlling the systems which control the flow of the money, thus they are the ones controlling the money.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• furyofantares 1y ago
  For those that don't know, El Salvador's dicator brags about this prison having a "Zero Idle Program", or in other words, brutal slave labor.
• furyofantares 1y ago
  I'm usually happy to flag news, politics. I'm happy with HN being for anything intellectually interesting, and nothing else. America is being attacked from the top, Donald Trump gaining and abusing more and more personal power every day in an apparent attempt to become an autocrat, meanwhile he and the dictator of El Salvador sit in the White House and just about the ONLY power you will see these two disclaim is that they "don't have the power" to bring this guy back. The ONLY thing I can see that makes this not intellectually interesting is just how sad and maddening it is. That definitely detracts from the curiosity of it all. But it's hard to imagine historians will find it remotely uninteresting.
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    >I'm happy with HN being for anything intellectually interesting, and nothing else. Hard to be intellectually curious when you're living in fear, and potentially in a future war torn country. I understand some reasoning for this mindset, but I'm glad you realize how dire this is an an attack on the very core systems that allow such curious discussion. We have multiple university professors strongly considering fleeing to Canada as a small sample. It's pretty clear how such moves will affect the long term abilities for a site like this to operate.
    • furyofantares 1y ago
      To be clear I'm advocating that if someone is flagging this due to it not being intellectually interesting, that they reflect on whether that's actually true or if it's just that fear or anxiety are getting in the way. I certainly don't want all news on this topic to be here; there's plenty of places to get that. But we definitely could discuss it here in ways which aren't accessible many other places if we take on the rather difficult task of finding some curiosity about the what exactly is going on.
• BonoboIO 1y ago
  It’s sad, that every slightly negative story about the Trump world we are living in is flagged.
  • soraminazuki 1y ago
    Same, but I wouldn't call an open demolishment of American democracy a slightly negative story though. It's a complete 180 from the post-WWII rules based order we're talking about and people attempting to rationalize the flagging as if this was just another mundane news not worth discussing should be ashamed of themselves.
    • BonoboIO 1y ago
      And I m downvoted … like ignoring those stories will help anyone.
• cmurf 1y ago
  Abrego Garcia will now die in El Salvador’s Cecot mega-prison. https://bsky.app/profile/judgeluttig.bsky.social/post/3lmsxjtwxid2z https://bsky.app/profile/judgeluttig.bsky.social/post/3lmsxj... What distinguishes a concentration camp from a prison (in the modern sense) is that it functions outside of a judicial system. The prisoners are not indicted or convicted of any crime by judicial process. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/concentration-camps-1933-39 https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/concentrat...
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• brandensilva 1y ago
  April 19th is the next national protest. I've been going to fight for the constitution, due process, and rule of law since this all began. The time isn't 2 years from now to change this at mid terms. There won't be a free place to speak or protest by then yet alone a free election system at the pace this is happening. I hope others will join.