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> In my experience there is very little respect for "the human" being laid off in US companies its much easier to find another job in US because of this though

> In my experience there is very little respect for "the human" being laid off in US companies its much easier to find another job in US because of this though.

oblio 2y ago
Is it, really? Aren't US tech interview notoriously difficult? Many rounds of interviews, background checks, etc.? Most purely European companies don't do that. Actually, unfortunately, some of them do, because of American influence. But for sure they didn't use to.
- icemelt8 2y ago
  What he meant is that the whole capitalist culture, less regulations, creates a more thriving economy which creates more jobs and hence more options to go to.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    I've heard this type of comment a lot but in my experience there isn't any shortage of tech companies in the EU. What EU regulations hamper isn't job creation, it's employee and customer exploitation. The distinction between "job creation" and "employee exploitation" is important. What the former means in practice is that there is a massive contractor market in the UK and EU. So if companies need temporary staff, they'll hire a contractor. If they need permanent staff then they'll hire an employee. And contractors in the UK & EU are paid significantly more than their employee peers. In fact their pay is much more equivalent to US employees. So companies will make constant tradeoffs between more expensive labor for short-lived projects vs cheaper staff and knowledge retention but stricter employment laws. It's a fair trade most of the time. So a more accurate way of comparing US vs EU businesses in terms of employees would be US employees vs EU contractors. Things then begin to look a lot more equivalent.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      I doubt the tech workers making three to four times EU wages in the US feel “exploited”. My job is purely transactional. I’ve worked for 10 companies in almost 30 years. I gave them labor and they gave me money. Whenever one side decided the arrangement wasn’t working, I moved on to another job.
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        You're focusing on one word and missing the meat of my comment. The EU equivalent to US employment in terms of employee rights and pay is contracting. People in IT who take the employment route rather than contracting, do so because they want job security. eg they might have families. And much as you might be happy with your arrangement, there are plenty in the UK and Europe who do prefer longer-term job security over a few extra £££ in their pocket.
        JustExAWS 2y ago
        I also have a family. I’ve managed to support my family across those 10 jobs. I need a job to support my family. But my duty is stay *employable”.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        You misunderstand me. My comment wasn't suggesting that people who contract don't have families. Plenty of them do. It's that people who choose employment over contracting do so because they want the additional stability, for example if they have families. Lots of people, when evaluating the risks of contracting vs employment, find the reward far outweighs the risk. It sounds like you'd be one of them if you were presented with the same choice. And that's a fine decision for you to come to. But that's not going to be the same conclusion for everyone.
        JustExAWS 2y ago
        What I’m saying is simple math. I would much rather make more than twice the equivalent worker in the EU and take the chance of a layoff. I can afford to have my own emergency fund to survive the gap in employment. Every employee in the US is “at will”.
  - tempfile 2y ago
    Indeed, but that is just ideology, not based on any facts.
    - apwell23 2y ago
      low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact.
      - perching_aix 2y ago
        > low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact. Does it? Sounds more like an opinion than a fact to me.
        zorked 2y ago
        If there was demand the salaries would rise. It's capitalism.
        oblio 2y ago
        Umm... output. Outside of hyperscalers and probably the tier below them, most EU tech companies aren't making the kind of money per headcount to justify huge salaries. There is demand for tech workers, but the output of EU tech companies can't afford huge salaries. Lower margins.
      - Scandiravian 2y ago
        There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my current position I'm hired for an expected 37 hours per week. This can be more if I'm asked to work overtime, but my weekly hours cannot exceed 45 hours per week on average in a 3 month window without additional compensation Additionally I have six weeks of paid time off every year plus public holidays If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies That's not to mention the security of having a legally mandated termination period of minimum 3 months (in which you're, in most cases, not expected to work)
  - homefree 2y ago
    Yeah I’d argue this is so clearly the case and it’s one reason among many why the US has an enormous amount of successful tech companies and Europe has some amount that basically rounds to zero in comparison. The ability to hire and fire easily is critical if you want to build successful companies. There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Europe has made really bad policy decisions around this for decades and their economy reflects it. Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      > There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Yes, and it's because of larger, more liquid capital markets make it much easier to obtain VC funding. > Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand. Europe is definitely not poor in terms of either wealth or income (particularly Western Europe, which is the appropriate comparator for the US).
- scarface_74 2y ago
  There are 2.8 million developers in the US. Most of them don’t work for “tech” companies. Most of them work for boring enterprise companies without multiple rounds of enterprise companies and many let you just do behavioral questions and techno trivia on the stack they care about. I personally have interviewed for 7 enterprise dev jobs and I have had 2 coding interviews and those were simple.
- Tainnor 2y ago
  IME, this was true four years ago. Few rounds, assessments were mostly take homes or in-person "implement a feature" style, interview questions didn't seem to be built to trip you up. Now, every job I apply for has 4-5 rounds, leetcode is more common, they do behavioural and system design rounds that you have to prepare for, etc. One job I applied to even asked me two behavioural questions via email before I even talked to someone. Something's truly off.
  - Kaethar 2y ago
    Wait till you get a self recorded behavioral interview. I truly wonder if there is that much value to be extracted out of 10 minutes of people awkwardly responding to questions while trying their best to fill in the silence.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      I think I'm not yet desperate to the point that I would agree to that.
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        I had to do one of those for some local government lobbyists association in DC. They ended up hiring some undergrad instead.
        selimthegrim 2y ago
        And just got asked to do another one for an internship
        Tainnor 2y ago
        Sorry to hear that. I feel that tech hiring has become full of weird gatekeepers that probably wouldn't even be able to pass their own weird challenges.
- bluedino 2y ago
  > Aren't US tech interview notoriously difficult? Many rounds of interviews, background checks, etc.? Not really, people get hired all the time that can't do a fizzbuzz.
  - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
    As a counterpoint, I don't think I've worked at a company in 10 years that didn't at least require fizzbuzz.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  Of course. Companies who fire more also hire more. European companies have very little staff turnover, so new jobs are fewer. Another aspect is that salaries are very even across much of the industry, as it is often negotiated by unions and unless you are also switching roles (e.g. into management) salaries at different companies will be very similar. That is why working for the same company for a long time is much more common in Europe.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    > Another aspect is that salaries are very even across much of the industry, as it is often negotiated by unions Can you specify what country you're drawing these facts from? Europe does not have standard employment law, and I definitely haven't experienced salaries being set by unions or being common across the industry.
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      Germany in this case. The high tax rates at progressive rates mean that salary increases mean that income after taxes is quite flat. There are also union negotiated rates for pay across much of the industry. Even if you switch employer your pay might remain exactly the same, unless you also get promoted and into a higher level or a different industry. "Flächentarifvertrag" it is called. Obviously this drastically disincentivizes hoping employers.
      - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        > Germany in this case. The high tax rates at progressive rates mean that salary increases mean that income after taxes is quite flat. OK, good to know. I definitely haven't experienced flat income after taxes post salary bump, even though I pay 52% marginal on my income (in Ireland). > Obviously this drastically disincentivizes hoping employers. I can totally see that. Is it really that common in tech jobs though? I'd have expected this to be much more common in larger, older companies (like the automotive industry).
tjpnz 2y ago
In Japan firing an employee is difficult and layoffs are unheard of. I would have few concerns finding something new were that to change overnight here.

> In my experience there is very little respect for "the human" being laid off in US companies its much easier to find another job in US because of this though.

oblio 2y ago

Is it, really? Aren't US tech interview notoriously difficult? Many rounds of interviews, background checks, etc.? Most purely European companies don't do that. Actually, unfortunately, some of them do, because of American influence. But for sure they didn't use to.

icemelt8 2y ago
What he meant is that the whole capitalist culture, less regulations, creates a more thriving economy which creates more jobs and hence more options to go to.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  I've heard this type of comment a lot but in my experience there isn't any shortage of tech companies in the EU. What EU regulations hamper isn't job creation, it's employee and customer exploitation. The distinction between "job creation" and "employee exploitation" is important. What the former means in practice is that there is a massive contractor market in the UK and EU. So if companies need temporary staff, they'll hire a contractor. If they need permanent staff then they'll hire an employee. And contractors in the UK & EU are paid significantly more than their employee peers. In fact their pay is much more equivalent to US employees. So companies will make constant tradeoffs between more expensive labor for short-lived projects vs cheaper staff and knowledge retention but stricter employment laws. It's a fair trade most of the time. So a more accurate way of comparing US vs EU businesses in terms of employees would be US employees vs EU contractors. Things then begin to look a lot more equivalent.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I doubt the tech workers making three to four times EU wages in the US feel “exploited”. My job is purely transactional. I’ve worked for 10 companies in almost 30 years. I gave them labor and they gave me money. Whenever one side decided the arrangement wasn’t working, I moved on to another job.
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      You're focusing on one word and missing the meat of my comment. The EU equivalent to US employment in terms of employee rights and pay is contracting. People in IT who take the employment route rather than contracting, do so because they want job security. eg they might have families. And much as you might be happy with your arrangement, there are plenty in the UK and Europe who do prefer longer-term job security over a few extra £££ in their pocket.
      - JustExAWS 2y ago
        I also have a family. I’ve managed to support my family across those 10 jobs. I need a job to support my family. But my duty is stay *employable”.
        hnlmorg 2y ago
        You misunderstand me. My comment wasn't suggesting that people who contract don't have families. Plenty of them do. It's that people who choose employment over contracting do so because they want the additional stability, for example if they have families. Lots of people, when evaluating the risks of contracting vs employment, find the reward far outweighs the risk. It sounds like you'd be one of them if you were presented with the same choice. And that's a fine decision for you to come to. But that's not going to be the same conclusion for everyone.
        JustExAWS 2y ago
        What I’m saying is simple math. I would much rather make more than twice the equivalent worker in the EU and take the chance of a layoff. I can afford to have my own emergency fund to survive the gap in employment. Every employee in the US is “at will”.
- tempfile 2y ago
  Indeed, but that is just ideology, not based on any facts.
  - apwell23 2y ago
    low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact.
    - perching_aix 2y ago
      > low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact. Does it? Sounds more like an opinion than a fact to me.
      - zorked 2y ago
        If there was demand the salaries would rise. It's capitalism.
        oblio 2y ago
        Umm... output. Outside of hyperscalers and probably the tier below them, most EU tech companies aren't making the kind of money per headcount to justify huge salaries. There is demand for tech workers, but the output of EU tech companies can't afford huge salaries. Lower margins.
    - Scandiravian 2y ago
      There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my current position I'm hired for an expected 37 hours per week. This can be more if I'm asked to work overtime, but my weekly hours cannot exceed 45 hours per week on average in a 3 month window without additional compensation Additionally I have six weeks of paid time off every year plus public holidays If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies That's not to mention the security of having a legally mandated termination period of minimum 3 months (in which you're, in most cases, not expected to work)
- homefree 2y ago
  Yeah I’d argue this is so clearly the case and it’s one reason among many why the US has an enormous amount of successful tech companies and Europe has some amount that basically rounds to zero in comparison. The ability to hire and fire easily is critical if you want to build successful companies. There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Europe has made really bad policy decisions around this for decades and their economy reflects it. Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    > There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Yes, and it's because of larger, more liquid capital markets make it much easier to obtain VC funding. > Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand. Europe is definitely not poor in terms of either wealth or income (particularly Western Europe, which is the appropriate comparator for the US).
scarface_74 2y ago
There are 2.8 million developers in the US. Most of them don’t work for “tech” companies. Most of them work for boring enterprise companies without multiple rounds of enterprise companies and many let you just do behavioral questions and techno trivia on the stack they care about. I personally have interviewed for 7 enterprise dev jobs and I have had 2 coding interviews and those were simple.
Tainnor 2y ago
IME, this was true four years ago. Few rounds, assessments were mostly take homes or in-person "implement a feature" style, interview questions didn't seem to be built to trip you up. Now, every job I apply for has 4-5 rounds, leetcode is more common, they do behavioural and system design rounds that you have to prepare for, etc. One job I applied to even asked me two behavioural questions via email before I even talked to someone. Something's truly off.
- Kaethar 2y ago
  Wait till you get a self recorded behavioral interview. I truly wonder if there is that much value to be extracted out of 10 minutes of people awkwardly responding to questions while trying their best to fill in the silence.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    I think I'm not yet desperate to the point that I would agree to that.
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      I had to do one of those for some local government lobbyists association in DC. They ended up hiring some undergrad instead.
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        And just got asked to do another one for an internship
        Tainnor 2y ago
        Sorry to hear that. I feel that tech hiring has become full of weird gatekeepers that probably wouldn't even be able to pass their own weird challenges.
bluedino 2y ago
> Aren't US tech interview notoriously difficult? Many rounds of interviews, background checks, etc.? Not really, people get hired all the time that can't do a fizzbuzz.
- femiagbabiaka 2y ago
  As a counterpoint, I don't think I've worked at a company in 10 years that didn't at least require fizzbuzz.
constantcrying 2y ago
Of course. Companies who fire more also hire more. European companies have very little staff turnover, so new jobs are fewer. Another aspect is that salaries are very even across much of the industry, as it is often negotiated by unions and unless you are also switching roles (e.g. into management) salaries at different companies will be very similar. That is why working for the same company for a long time is much more common in Europe.
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  > Another aspect is that salaries are very even across much of the industry, as it is often negotiated by unions Can you specify what country you're drawing these facts from? Europe does not have standard employment law, and I definitely haven't experienced salaries being set by unions or being common across the industry.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    Germany in this case. The high tax rates at progressive rates mean that salary increases mean that income after taxes is quite flat. There are also union negotiated rates for pay across much of the industry. Even if you switch employer your pay might remain exactly the same, unless you also get promoted and into a higher level or a different industry. "Flächentarifvertrag" it is called. Obviously this drastically disincentivizes hoping employers.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      > Germany in this case. The high tax rates at progressive rates mean that salary increases mean that income after taxes is quite flat. OK, good to know. I definitely haven't experienced flat income after taxes post salary bump, even though I pay 52% marginal on my income (in Ireland). > Obviously this drastically disincentivizes hoping employers. I can totally see that. Is it really that common in tech jobs though? I'd have expected this to be much more common in larger, older companies (like the automotive industry).

tjpnz 2y ago

In Japan firing an employee is difficult and layoffs are unheard of. I would have few concerns finding something new were that to change overnight here.