7 ms·

Who in their right mind wants that? UBI just means signing your soul away to the state, who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedur

by karol 1y ago

Who in their right mind wants that? UBI just means signing your soul away to the state, who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedures and even military conscription. No thanks.

AIorNot 1y ago
Why if the state provides a basic safety net should that preclude individual ambition? Should we not move toward a society that can not go hungry?
- dimitrios1 1y ago
  The false dichotomy is that you need big government to have a society that does not go hungry.
MarcelOlsz 1y ago
During COVID, my friends and I were temporarily retired. Lamenting every moment since having to come out of retirement. We were all laid off and received about $2k/mo for awhile and what happened was we ended up hanging out every since day working on whatever we were working on, and feelings of inadequacy faded into the background. It was a micro golden age for us and that period of time has cemented UBI for us. It was a small amount of money and we lived with our parents but we were never more productive and happy. Hopefully before I die I can witness a strong implementation of UBI. It would directly reflect in culture in terms of music and the arts. Little funding for the arts currently combined with massive rent nearly everywhere leaves little room for cultural phenomenon that was possible in places like the lower east side bowery for example. Or arts funding in the USSR and other soviet bloc countries. Time is more valuable than anything else.
- isaacremuant 1y ago
  You were the beneficiary of a bullshit short term policy that has wrecked the global and national economies and think that means it was a good thing to replicate? Your fun time was extremely damaging to people everywhere but of course, we can pretend "it was necessary because COVID" which we then knew and now it's undeniable, was an absolute farce of hygiene theater. The people who worked paid for you to do nothing at your parents home. That's all there is. Meanwhile, there also were massive transfers of wealth with the same excuse, from tax payers to the wealthies company owners.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- mantas 1y ago
  > Or arts funding in the USSR and other soviet bloc countries. This is pretty good example why UBI is dangerous. Those funded artists were very happy to suck it up and go along with the regime. The censorship was in place, but self-censorship was even stronger. Meanwhile a lot of art existed outside of the system with people working some shitty jobs and doing arts in free time.
  - oulipo 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - mantas 1y ago
      Born in USSR and growing up in then ex-USSR I’ve pretty good experience of arts created during USSR period and both official and underground artists. But yes, maybe some delusional USSR loving academics in west wrote some BS study how awesome life in USSR was. Which is very funny because those people would have ended up in KGB blacklists if they were on the other side of the iron curtain.
      - em-bee 1y ago
        the problem here was the USSR not the UBI. you need to disconnect the two. the USSR and the associated political repression came first and it's no surprise that any handouts thereafter were in service of that political system. we are discussing UBI in a democratic system, and i feel it is rather unlikely that implementation of UBI would turn a country into something like the USSR.
        mantas 1y ago
        I agree. It was OP up the thread who brought up USSR artists funding as an example. USSR and UBI is an interesting combination though. Being unemployed was illegal. And for common man it was very hard to get laid off. Just show up, even if intoxicated (and continue drinking at work), sleep at work (e.g. drive your tractor to the field and just park there) and you'll still get paid crappy salary as anybody else and roof over your head. I guess it was closest it was to real UBI. Yes, it was not exactly UBI, but it was still universal income where you get food & shelter regardless of your work performance. Regarding UBI turning countries into USSR, I don't think UBI would turn countries into totalitarian regimes. But it may turn countries into similar inefficient slacking-off culture where vast majority of people do as little as possible in least involving way. Sure, some of them may claim they're super productive and creative in their hobby adventures. But if thousands of programmers create awesome ToDo apps in their free time... Is that really productive from society perspective? Society needs a lot of bring stuff, not thousands of great ToDo apps...
- conductr 1y ago
  East side bowery was very cheap back then (it was also a pretty rough part of town, which is easy to forget). You just need to convince a hoard of like minded folks to congregate somewhere cheap and you can live like this. There's plenty of cheap places to live in the US. I kind of feel like we need to learn how to build new cities, we have the land, it's mostly cheap, we just continue to choose to reside in expensive places chasing jobs that help us cover the rent while working us to death.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway743 1y ago
    Idk man, I wouldn't call bowery rough or cheap by any stretch - 20 years ago, during covid, or now. For rough during covid or now, head to east new york. For cheap, head deeper into the other boroughs.
    - conductr 1y ago
      The art scene there was more like 40-60 years ago, no?
      - throwaway743 1y ago
        No, and I don't get your point.
- nradov 1y ago
  As a taxpayer this kind of nonsense fantasy is exactly why I would never vote for UBI.
  - arduanika 1y ago
    Absolutely. More generally, as a taxpayer, I'm very unlikely to vote for anything that is justified in terms of how great the USSR was. One of several comments in this thread that give away the game: scratch a UBI bro, find a commie.
- arduanika 1y ago
  The only good Soviet art was the stuff that expressed the suffocating oppression of the communist regime and warned the world to never to do it again. Some of it was oblique, but all of it was human. If you and your friends lack the taste to understand that, then I am really glad that my tax dollars are no longer funding your arts and crafts projects.
bigyabai 1y ago
> who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedures and even military conscription. No thanks. Entirely unlike modern America, where utility providers for food and water are regulated for what's healthy and representative legislature decides when to draft you for Vietnam 2.
dsr_ 1y ago
Military conscription has always been the role of the state. In the US, health procedures are currently in the hands of oligarchical profit-maximizing middlemen; the first assassination has already happened. I really don't know what your objection is to improving people's lives.
_ink_ 1y ago
How so? Universal Basic Income means, you get it no matter what. So if they require you to serve to get money, that's no UBI.
- netsharc 1y ago
  I remember reading about how the US military is a socialist society. Housing, income, free education, free healthcare for life... Funny how the biggest part of the US budget is funding that.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - metabagel 1y ago
    Particularly if you live overseas on base. The military provides everything for you, albeit often through vendors such as AAFES. But yeah, free healthcare for sure. https://www.aafes.com/exchange-stores/ https://www.aafes.com/exchange-stores/
  - dgfitz 1y ago
    None of it is free, what are you talking about? It is very much earned. Free means you didn’t do anything to get something. Ever been shot at before?
- arduanika 1y ago
  GP is being a realist. Just because it says "universal" in the name doesn't actually constrain the whims of the state.
miketery 1y ago
I’m surprised by the down votes. Possibly you could have made your point better, there are pros and cons. “A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”
- fwip 1y ago
  [flagged]
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  I trust a functioning government over free market human participants. People always overweight their own ability to succeed, when the stats tell a different story. How are the governments and economies in the happiest countries structured, for example.
- anonzzzies 1y ago
  > ... to take from you everything you have.” Nothing to do with UBI; the gov of the country you live in can do that period. Really no clue what it has to do with UBI.
- dang 1y ago
  (I think it was probably downvoted because it was too far over the line into ideological battle and other things that the site guidelines ask commenters to avoid here.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  This is still a shit argument. Most people have nothing in the current system.
GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
You have most of these limitations imposed on you as market effects anyways. You’re no freer than you would be with UBI.
nelsonfigueroa 1y ago
> Who in their right mind wants that? Those living in poverty. Speaking from personal experience. > UBI just means signing your soul away to the state, who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedures and even military conscription. The state can already do this without UBI. Not saying UBI is flawless though.
rsoto2 1y ago
lol the state(aka society's strong arm) will always have an immense say in your life even if you are so oblivious to it. Government exists to redistribute money, might as well distribute it to the poor and do it universally. This study didn't say, we gave 1200 to people and then dictated their lives like a dictator.
- isaacremuant 1y ago
  > Government exists to redistribute money Citation needed. Authoritarians always love to go dismiss anyone who doesn't just take anything they're given.
  - unethical_ban 1y ago
    Citation: All modern society and the last 1000 years. >Governments don't exist to redistribute money Citation needed.
    - foobarchu 1y ago
      >Government exists to redistribute money Citation needed It works both ways.
    - isaacremuant 1y ago
      Read a constitution and tell me where it states that the goal is to redisteibut wealth. I've read significant parts of the constitution of my country and it absolutely does not state that. The goal of the government is not stated as such. It's not "the social contract". But hey, your phrase sounded confident so you have that going for you.
      - unethical_ban 1y ago
        "The authority to collect taxes and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States."
        1y ago
oulipo 1y ago
[flagged]
ozmodiar 1y ago
The state gets more power over you without UBI (assuming a social safety net of any kind already exists) - without UBI it needs a larger apparatus to decide how to distribute funds, and it can pick arbitrary reasons to cut off your funds. Under UBI administration would be far simpler and cutting off your income for political reasons would be far more noticeable, since it's supposed to be universal.
FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
I agree. Much better to die because a free market health insurer denied your operation because it rather kept the money it would cost.
nottorp 1y ago
"Universal" basic income. "Universal" health care. What the word in quotes means is they're unconditional.
osmsucks 1y ago
You're right. Better to sell your soul away to a corporation that can fire you at will.
- arduanika 1y ago
  Yes. And where you can leave at will. A more honorable existence on every level.
surgical_fire 1y ago
> Who in their right mind wants that? Anyone that is repulsed by a system that requires an underclass of desperate people for it to work. > UBI just means signing your soul away to the state As opposed to sign your soul away to corporations instead?
stackedinserter 1y ago
I don't understand why you're downvoted. I grew up in a country that did exactly this, until collapsed. Strong social nets, free housing, free medicine for all, free education, no unemployment, sounds like heaven, right? The only problem is that every person is a government-owned livestock unit. Their thoughts, knowledge, career paths, kids, even their private life, everything is controlled by government, that also obligates you to watch after your neighbours and co-workers. You can't even leave the country without government permission. You can expelled if you don't like the government though. You can't work where you want after getting your degree, government will send you where they think they need you to be. School is never ending propaganda. We literally had "political information" every Monday, since grade 1. Also, since grade 1 you're in one of the tiers of the only allowed political party of the country. There's tier for grade 1 to 3, then for 4 to 8, then from 8 to 10. Every 18yo is drafted for 2 years for armed forces (3 for navy). I can go on and on. I remember it too well and would never trade messy and chaotic capitalist society to that labour camp with "free" rations. It's frightening that so many people in 1st world want to live in a cage with 3-times-a-day meal.
- em-bee 1y ago
  that is a false dichotomy, just because a bad government that didn't give you any freedom implemented these benefits doesn't mean that any government implementing such benefits will automatically take everyone's freedom away. the freedom was taken away first. it did not understand that benefits are not enough and that freedom is also needed. we are discussing UBI as a means to give people more freedom, and not as a way to turn them into slaves.
protocolture 1y ago
>mandatory health procedures and even military conscription Some people have these without UBI. In fact theres nothing stopping the state from doing these things right now.

by karol 1y ago

AIorNot 1y ago

Why if the state provides a basic safety net should that preclude individual ambition? Should we not move toward a society that can not go hungry?

dimitrios1 1y ago
The false dichotomy is that you need big government to have a society that does not go hungry.

MarcelOlsz 1y ago

During COVID, my friends and I were temporarily retired. Lamenting every moment since having to come out of retirement. We were all laid off and received about $2k/mo for awhile and what happened was we ended up hanging out every since day working on whatever we were working on, and feelings of inadequacy faded into the background. It was a micro golden age for us and that period of time has cemented UBI for us. It was a small amount of money and we lived with our parents but we were never more productive and happy. Hopefully before I die I can witness a strong implementation of UBI. It would directly reflect in culture in terms of music and the arts. Little funding for the arts currently combined with massive rent nearly everywhere leaves little room for cultural phenomenon that was possible in places like the lower east side bowery for example. Or arts funding in the USSR and other soviet bloc countries. Time is more valuable than anything else.

isaacremuant 1y ago
You were the beneficiary of a bullshit short term policy that has wrecked the global and national economies and think that means it was a good thing to replicate? Your fun time was extremely damaging to people everywhere but of course, we can pretend "it was necessary because COVID" which we then knew and now it's undeniable, was an absolute farce of hygiene theater. The people who worked paid for you to do nothing at your parents home. That's all there is. Meanwhile, there also were massive transfers of wealth with the same excuse, from tax payers to the wealthies company owners.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
mantas 1y ago
> Or arts funding in the USSR and other soviet bloc countries. This is pretty good example why UBI is dangerous. Those funded artists were very happy to suck it up and go along with the regime. The censorship was in place, but self-censorship was even stronger. Meanwhile a lot of art existed outside of the system with people working some shitty jobs and doing arts in free time.
- oulipo 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mantas 1y ago
    Born in USSR and growing up in then ex-USSR I’ve pretty good experience of arts created during USSR period and both official and underground artists. But yes, maybe some delusional USSR loving academics in west wrote some BS study how awesome life in USSR was. Which is very funny because those people would have ended up in KGB blacklists if they were on the other side of the iron curtain.
    - em-bee 1y ago
      the problem here was the USSR not the UBI. you need to disconnect the two. the USSR and the associated political repression came first and it's no surprise that any handouts thereafter were in service of that political system. we are discussing UBI in a democratic system, and i feel it is rather unlikely that implementation of UBI would turn a country into something like the USSR.
      - mantas 1y ago
        I agree. It was OP up the thread who brought up USSR artists funding as an example. USSR and UBI is an interesting combination though. Being unemployed was illegal. And for common man it was very hard to get laid off. Just show up, even if intoxicated (and continue drinking at work), sleep at work (e.g. drive your tractor to the field and just park there) and you'll still get paid crappy salary as anybody else and roof over your head. I guess it was closest it was to real UBI. Yes, it was not exactly UBI, but it was still universal income where you get food & shelter regardless of your work performance. Regarding UBI turning countries into USSR, I don't think UBI would turn countries into totalitarian regimes. But it may turn countries into similar inefficient slacking-off culture where vast majority of people do as little as possible in least involving way. Sure, some of them may claim they're super productive and creative in their hobby adventures. But if thousands of programmers create awesome ToDo apps in their free time... Is that really productive from society perspective? Society needs a lot of bring stuff, not thousands of great ToDo apps...
conductr 1y ago
East side bowery was very cheap back then (it was also a pretty rough part of town, which is easy to forget). You just need to convince a hoard of like minded folks to congregate somewhere cheap and you can live like this. There's plenty of cheap places to live in the US. I kind of feel like we need to learn how to build new cities, we have the land, it's mostly cheap, we just continue to choose to reside in expensive places chasing jobs that help us cover the rent while working us to death.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway743 1y ago
  Idk man, I wouldn't call bowery rough or cheap by any stretch - 20 years ago, during covid, or now. For rough during covid or now, head to east new york. For cheap, head deeper into the other boroughs.
  - conductr 1y ago
    The art scene there was more like 40-60 years ago, no?
    - throwaway743 1y ago
      No, and I don't get your point.
nradov 1y ago
As a taxpayer this kind of nonsense fantasy is exactly why I would never vote for UBI.
- arduanika 1y ago
  Absolutely. More generally, as a taxpayer, I'm very unlikely to vote for anything that is justified in terms of how great the USSR was. One of several comments in this thread that give away the game: scratch a UBI bro, find a commie.
arduanika 1y ago
The only good Soviet art was the stuff that expressed the suffocating oppression of the communist regime and warned the world to never to do it again. Some of it was oblique, but all of it was human. If you and your friends lack the taste to understand that, then I am really glad that my tax dollars are no longer funding your arts and crafts projects.

bigyabai 1y ago

> who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedures and even military conscription. No thanks. Entirely unlike modern America, where utility providers for food and water are regulated for what's healthy and representative legislature decides when to draft you for Vietnam 2.

dsr_ 1y ago

Military conscription has always been the role of the state. In the US, health procedures are currently in the hands of oligarchical profit-maximizing middlemen; the first assassination has already happened. I really don't know what your objection is to improving people's lives.

_ink_ 1y ago

How so? Universal Basic Income means, you get it no matter what. So if they require you to serve to get money, that's no UBI.

netsharc 1y ago
I remember reading about how the US military is a socialist society. Housing, income, free education, free healthcare for life... Funny how the biggest part of the US budget is funding that.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- metabagel 1y ago
  Particularly if you live overseas on base. The military provides everything for you, albeit often through vendors such as AAFES. But yeah, free healthcare for sure. https://www.aafes.com/exchange-stores/ https://www.aafes.com/exchange-stores/
- dgfitz 1y ago
  None of it is free, what are you talking about? It is very much earned. Free means you didn’t do anything to get something. Ever been shot at before?
arduanika 1y ago
GP is being a realist. Just because it says "universal" in the name doesn't actually constrain the whims of the state.

miketery 1y ago

I’m surprised by the down votes. Possibly you could have made your point better, there are pros and cons. “A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”

fwip 1y ago
[flagged]
toomuchtodo 1y ago
I trust a functioning government over free market human participants. People always overweight their own ability to succeed, when the stats tell a different story. How are the governments and economies in the happiest countries structured, for example.
anonzzzies 1y ago
> ... to take from you everything you have.” Nothing to do with UBI; the gov of the country you live in can do that period. Really no clue what it has to do with UBI.
dang 1y ago
(I think it was probably downvoted because it was too far over the line into ideological battle and other things that the site guidelines ask commenters to avoid here.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
surgical_fire 1y ago
This is still a shit argument. Most people have nothing in the current system.

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago

You have most of these limitations imposed on you as market effects anyways. You’re no freer than you would be with UBI.

nelsonfigueroa 1y ago

> Who in their right mind wants that? Those living in poverty. Speaking from personal experience. > UBI just means signing your soul away to the state, who then can mandate your lifestyle completely including health procedures and even military conscription. The state can already do this without UBI. Not saying UBI is flawless though.

rsoto2 1y ago

lol the state(aka society's strong arm) will always have an immense say in your life even if you are so oblivious to it. Government exists to redistribute money, might as well distribute it to the poor and do it universally. This study didn't say, we gave 1200 to people and then dictated their lives like a dictator.

isaacremuant 1y ago
> Government exists to redistribute money Citation needed. Authoritarians always love to go dismiss anyone who doesn't just take anything they're given.
- unethical_ban 1y ago
  Citation: All modern society and the last 1000 years. >Governments don't exist to redistribute money Citation needed.
  - foobarchu 1y ago
    >Government exists to redistribute money Citation needed It works both ways.
  - isaacremuant 1y ago
    Read a constitution and tell me where it states that the goal is to redisteibut wealth. I've read significant parts of the constitution of my country and it absolutely does not state that. The goal of the government is not stated as such. It's not "the social contract". But hey, your phrase sounded confident so you have that going for you.
    - unethical_ban 1y ago
      "The authority to collect taxes and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States."
      - 1y ago

oulipo 1y ago

[flagged]

ozmodiar 1y ago

The state gets more power over you without UBI (assuming a social safety net of any kind already exists) - without UBI it needs a larger apparatus to decide how to distribute funds, and it can pick arbitrary reasons to cut off your funds. Under UBI administration would be far simpler and cutting off your income for political reasons would be far more noticeable, since it's supposed to be universal.

FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago

I agree. Much better to die because a free market health insurer denied your operation because it rather kept the money it would cost.

nottorp 1y ago

"Universal" basic income. "Universal" health care. What the word in quotes means is they're unconditional.

osmsucks 1y ago

You're right. Better to sell your soul away to a corporation that can fire you at will.

arduanika 1y ago
Yes. And where you can leave at will. A more honorable existence on every level.

surgical_fire 1y ago

> Who in their right mind wants that? Anyone that is repulsed by a system that requires an underclass of desperate people for it to work. > UBI just means signing your soul away to the state As opposed to sign your soul away to corporations instead?

stackedinserter 1y ago

I don't understand why you're downvoted. I grew up in a country that did exactly this, until collapsed. Strong social nets, free housing, free medicine for all, free education, no unemployment, sounds like heaven, right? The only problem is that every person is a government-owned livestock unit. Their thoughts, knowledge, career paths, kids, even their private life, everything is controlled by government, that also obligates you to watch after your neighbours and co-workers. You can't even leave the country without government permission. You can expelled if you don't like the government though. You can't work where you want after getting your degree, government will send you where they think they need you to be. School is never ending propaganda. We literally had "political information" every Monday, since grade 1. Also, since grade 1 you're in one of the tiers of the only allowed political party of the country. There's tier for grade 1 to 3, then for 4 to 8, then from 8 to 10. Every 18yo is drafted for 2 years for armed forces (3 for navy). I can go on and on. I remember it too well and would never trade messy and chaotic capitalist society to that labour camp with "free" rations. It's frightening that so many people in 1st world want to live in a cage with 3-times-a-day meal.

em-bee 1y ago
that is a false dichotomy, just because a bad government that didn't give you any freedom implemented these benefits doesn't mean that any government implementing such benefits will automatically take everyone's freedom away. the freedom was taken away first. it did not understand that benefits are not enough and that freedom is also needed. we are discussing UBI as a means to give people more freedom, and not as a way to turn them into slaves.

protocolture 1y ago

>mandatory health procedures and even military conscription Some people have these without UBI. In fact theres nothing stopping the state from doing these things right now.