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TODO does not imply no plan or that we haven't thought deeply about the problem. Prioritization is imperative when you're building an MMORPG and a new database

TODO does not imply no plan or that we haven't thought deeply about the problem. Prioritization is imperative when you're building an MMORPG and a new database with a small team for both.

gafferongames 1y ago
How can you think deeply and plan for something when you don't know what don't know. You can only really understand these things when you've taken a game using these latency hiding techniques into production, and then after this, you'll probably realize that some of your original ideas were wrong. Where does this leave SpacetimeDB then?
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  just because someone doesn't think and plan just like you do, doesn't mean they will not succeed
  - gafferongames 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - cloutiertyler 1y ago
      For what it's worth, BitCraft currently ships with client-side prediction. It's just not built into SpacetimeDB yet. It's relatively simple, but "The SpacetimeDB devs have not yet shipped a game using client-side prediction techniques", is not correct.
      - gafferongames 1y ago
        [flagged]
        Aeolun 1y ago
        Man, cynical much? I feel like OP has been honestly trying to engage with you here, and the only thing you’ve been is snippy and abrasive.
        gafferongames 1y ago
        [flagged]
        spoiler 1y ago
        I mean, they said they'd like to get your expert input on the matter. Why not give them a chance? Maybe you can help them do some much needed course correction—which is what I understood you're staying by reading a bit between the lines. Maybe you can even negotiate a consultancy fee with them You can stay sceptical, but try giving them a chance. You might end up surprising eachother! Aside: I'm getting into indie game dev recently and love your site!
        alexpadula 1y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        gafferongames 1y ago
        [flagged]
        alexpadula 1y ago
- cloutiertyler 1y ago
  I'd be happy to schedule a chat to talk with you about our plans if you'd like! I'd love to get your thoughts.
  - gafferongames 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - cloutiertyler 1y ago
      Ah you mean like implementing UDP and supporting complex lag masking netcode before we have to?
      - gafferongames 1y ago
        If a game has no players, does it really matter if it's networked with UDP or TCP?
- Aeolun 1y ago
  I mean, they are dogfooding their own database. If they’re making a MMO game with it presumably the game has latency masking netcode, even if it isn’t in part of the database.
  - gafferongames 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - cess11 1y ago
      "Tyler was a Sr. Data Science Engineer at MZ (the company behind Game of War and Mobile Strike). Prior to working at MZ he was an engineer at Apple. Tyler holds a Masters in Distributed Systems and Machine Learning from Johns Hopkins University." "Alessandro was a Sr. Software Engineer at Bloomberg, LP where he worked on high throughput distributed pricing systems. He holds a Computer Science and a Biomedical Engineering degree from Johns Hopkins University." Looks like they've built stuff before. I don't like this database product because it lacks SDK:s in languages I would touch without getting paid, but I think the idea is sound and rather attractive. For many years I've used Picolisp in a similar way, it bundles an object database with a logic engine and a small Lisp-like programming language, which makes it easy to throw in some data and relations and slap on a web page with standard library widgets. The BEAM is similar, you push some modules into it and store stuff in ETS and don't bother with RDBMS until you need it. If your data is small or trivially shardable you can get persistence too, with Mnesia. I'm not so sure they'll be making a lot from that game of theirs, but if their database turns out to be robust it could become competitive with things like Supabase/Firebase and such, because there will be modules for serving web and auth and dashboards and whatnot you can just push in there and you're good to go. One-click-install for applications, similar to cPanel and Wordpress rigs, but less messy on the ops side.
      - gafferongames 1y ago
        > Looks like they've built stuff before. Building "stuff" != shipping games.

TODO does not imply no plan or that we haven't thought deeply about the problem. Prioritization is imperative when you're building an MMORPG and a new database with a small team for both.

gafferongames 1y ago

How can you think deeply and plan for something when you don't know what don't know. You can only really understand these things when you've taken a game using these latency hiding techniques into production, and then after this, you'll probably realize that some of your original ideas were wrong. Where does this leave SpacetimeDB then?

stronglikedan 1y ago
just because someone doesn't think and plan just like you do, doesn't mean they will not succeed
- gafferongames 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - cloutiertyler 1y ago
    For what it's worth, BitCraft currently ships with client-side prediction. It's just not built into SpacetimeDB yet. It's relatively simple, but "The SpacetimeDB devs have not yet shipped a game using client-side prediction techniques", is not correct.
    - gafferongames 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - Aeolun 1y ago
        Man, cynical much? I feel like OP has been honestly trying to engage with you here, and the only thing you’ve been is snippy and abrasive.
        gafferongames 1y ago
        [flagged]
        spoiler 1y ago
        I mean, they said they'd like to get your expert input on the matter. Why not give them a chance? Maybe you can help them do some much needed course correction—which is what I understood you're staying by reading a bit between the lines. Maybe you can even negotiate a consultancy fee with them You can stay sceptical, but try giving them a chance. You might end up surprising eachother! Aside: I'm getting into indie game dev recently and love your site!
        alexpadula 1y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        gafferongames 1y ago
        [flagged]
        alexpadula 1y ago
cloutiertyler 1y ago
I'd be happy to schedule a chat to talk with you about our plans if you'd like! I'd love to get your thoughts.
- gafferongames 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - cloutiertyler 1y ago
    Ah you mean like implementing UDP and supporting complex lag masking netcode before we have to?
    - gafferongames 1y ago
      If a game has no players, does it really matter if it's networked with UDP or TCP?
Aeolun 1y ago
I mean, they are dogfooding their own database. If they’re making a MMO game with it presumably the game has latency masking netcode, even if it isn’t in part of the database.
- gafferongames 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - cess11 1y ago
    "Tyler was a Sr. Data Science Engineer at MZ (the company behind Game of War and Mobile Strike). Prior to working at MZ he was an engineer at Apple. Tyler holds a Masters in Distributed Systems and Machine Learning from Johns Hopkins University." "Alessandro was a Sr. Software Engineer at Bloomberg, LP where he worked on high throughput distributed pricing systems. He holds a Computer Science and a Biomedical Engineering degree from Johns Hopkins University." Looks like they've built stuff before. I don't like this database product because it lacks SDK:s in languages I would touch without getting paid, but I think the idea is sound and rather attractive. For many years I've used Picolisp in a similar way, it bundles an object database with a logic engine and a small Lisp-like programming language, which makes it easy to throw in some data and relations and slap on a web page with standard library widgets. The BEAM is similar, you push some modules into it and store stuff in ETS and don't bother with RDBMS until you need it. If your data is small or trivially shardable you can get persistence too, with Mnesia. I'm not so sure they'll be making a lot from that game of theirs, but if their database turns out to be robust it could become competitive with things like Supabase/Firebase and such, because there will be modules for serving web and auth and dashboards and whatnot you can just push in there and you're good to go. One-click-install for applications, similar to cPanel and Wordpress rigs, but less messy on the ops side.
    - gafferongames 1y ago
      > Looks like they've built stuff before. Building "stuff" != shipping games.