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When I saw the new round, I was instantly worried about change in direction that will most likely come with this, and effectively drive away regular users from

by elAhmo 2y ago

When I saw the new round, I was instantly worried about change in direction that will most likely come with this, and effectively drive away regular users from a tool that seems universally loved. Similar sentiment can be seen in the discussion from three years ago [1] when they raised $100M. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31259950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31259950

braginini 2y ago
Try netbird which is an open-source alternative to free yourself from worries xD https://github.com/netbirdio/netbird https://github.com/netbirdio/netbird
- 650REDHAIR 2y ago
  Thank you for sharing this link! I was about to slog through AI search results looking for an alternative.
  - drcongo 2y ago
    I've been tracking this space for a while just out of annoyance that Tailscale offers ssh on the free tier, then not on the "starter" paid tier. Netbird is by far the best of the alternatives that I've tried.
    - CharlesW 2y ago
      Their Personal Plus (the non-business "starter" plan) does offer SSH, FWIW.
    - stavros 2y ago
      Can you comment a bit on what you liked about them, especially compared to Tailscale?
      - drcongo 2y ago
        Well, it's important to start with saying I didn't like it as much as Tailscale, but I liked it a lot more than any of the others I tried. The UI for their dashboard is very good and getting it up and running was pretty trouble free though the docs could be a little better.
        stavros 2y ago
        Ah, that makes sense thank you!
    - mkl 2y ago
      Have you tried ZeroTier? Their free plan's been working well for me. I haven't tried NetBird.
- arcanemachiner 2y ago
  I've always been on the outside looking in, so I've never used Tailscale or its open-source brethren. Would this service be comparable to Headscale[0]? [0] https://github.com/juanfont/headscale https://github.com/juanfont/headscale
  - _lvbh 2y ago
    Headscale is server only. Netbird is the whole stack (basically does the same thing but completely different software/implementation)
    - bjackman 2y ago
      But the tailscale client is open source too
      - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
        Doesn't that also then make tailscale completely open source?
        udev4096 2y ago
        What? The original coordination server, which is not running headscale, is closed source so yes, they are still a closed source company
        bjackman 2y ago
        No their "real" backend is proprietary. Headscale is a separate implementation that they also maintain. It's intended for self-hosting your individual Tailnet. I'm assuming if you tried to use it as a corporate VPN you would run into limitations. Their clients for proprietary OSs are at least partly proprietary too. To be honest I find this all a very reasonable set of compromises. It means I'm comfortable using their proprietary service without feeling like I'm getting locked into a completely closed ecosystem.
      - pilif 2y ago
- resiros 2y ago
  I use personally for my home network. Very easy to use and quite mature. I'd highly recommend.
- regisso 2y ago
  I highly recommend netbird, after using it for two years. The whole stack can be self hosted is open source develop by an european based company.
Valord 2y ago
I share your concerns.
pomatic 2y ago
When they raised the 100M three years ago, I'm pretty sure they said they didn't need it and were saving it for a rainy day (or words to that effect), always seemed very odd at the time. Two q's for anyone who cares to speculate: have they burnt the original investment already? And if not, why would they need more funding? AFAICS there's no real competition in the market place for their product today, the only thing I can conceive is that they have a secret 'tailscale 2' project in the wings which is massively developer or capital intensive. Let's hope it is nothing related to AI band wagoning :-)
- chubot 2y ago
  Hm OK well thinking out loud, $100M / 3 is $33M / year? I don't know much about Tailscale, nor about how much it costs to run a company, but I thought it was mostly a software company? I would imagine that salaries are the main cost, and revenue could cover salaries? (seems like they have a solid model - https://tailscale.com/pricing https://tailscale.com/pricing) I'm sure they have some cloud fees, but I thought it was mostly "control plane" and not data plane, so it should be cheap? I could be massively misunderstanding what Tailscale is ... Did the product change a lot in the last 3 years?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    > I don't know much about Tailscale, nor about how much it costs to run a company $33m/year is only 33 fully loaded software developers including all overhead like HR and managers and office space, and also a cloud hosting bill. 33 really isn't that many.
    - johnbellone 2y ago
      I'd be surprised if the average package for SWE is $1M/year (fully loaded).
      - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
        Generally package is around half of what company spends per extra engineer. And $500k average for a tech heavy product company doesn't sound too far off.
specialp 2y ago
There are plenty of enterprises that will pay them to run their services and provide better integrations while allowing open source users to continue. Now people will get upset because some of these things will be for those customers only but it is very hard to keep developing these things and give them out for free. Partially open source still allows those to extend the work they give to the community and they will probably still continue to have a free tier to get more enterprise customers in the end.
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
This is mostly so that the founders can take some money off the table. The founders probably have $10 million cash after this and don't have to worry about rent ever again.
- tptacek 2y ago
  The founders of Tailscale probably weren't too worried about rent before Tailscale.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
    Why? Did they have a previous exit?
    - vvillena 2y ago
      IIRC they were senior engineers from Google.

by elAhmo 2y ago

braginini 2y ago

Try netbird which is an open-source alternative to free yourself from worries xD https://github.com/netbirdio/netbird https://github.com/netbirdio/netbird

650REDHAIR 2y ago
Thank you for sharing this link! I was about to slog through AI search results looking for an alternative.
- drcongo 2y ago
  I've been tracking this space for a while just out of annoyance that Tailscale offers ssh on the free tier, then not on the "starter" paid tier. Netbird is by far the best of the alternatives that I've tried.
  - CharlesW 2y ago
    Their Personal Plus (the non-business "starter" plan) does offer SSH, FWIW.
  - stavros 2y ago
    Can you comment a bit on what you liked about them, especially compared to Tailscale?
    - drcongo 2y ago
      Well, it's important to start with saying I didn't like it as much as Tailscale, but I liked it a lot more than any of the others I tried. The UI for their dashboard is very good and getting it up and running was pretty trouble free though the docs could be a little better.
      - stavros 2y ago
        Ah, that makes sense thank you!
  - mkl 2y ago
    Have you tried ZeroTier? Their free plan's been working well for me. I haven't tried NetBird.
arcanemachiner 2y ago
I've always been on the outside looking in, so I've never used Tailscale or its open-source brethren. Would this service be comparable to Headscale[0]? [0] https://github.com/juanfont/headscale https://github.com/juanfont/headscale
- _lvbh 2y ago
  Headscale is server only. Netbird is the whole stack (basically does the same thing but completely different software/implementation)
  - bjackman 2y ago
    But the tailscale client is open source too
    - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
      Doesn't that also then make tailscale completely open source?
      - udev4096 2y ago
        What? The original coordination server, which is not running headscale, is closed source so yes, they are still a closed source company
      - bjackman 2y ago
        No their "real" backend is proprietary. Headscale is a separate implementation that they also maintain. It's intended for self-hosting your individual Tailnet. I'm assuming if you tried to use it as a corporate VPN you would run into limitations. Their clients for proprietary OSs are at least partly proprietary too. To be honest I find this all a very reasonable set of compromises. It means I'm comfortable using their proprietary service without feeling like I'm getting locked into a completely closed ecosystem.
    - pilif 2y ago
resiros 2y ago
I use personally for my home network. Very easy to use and quite mature. I'd highly recommend.
regisso 2y ago
I highly recommend netbird, after using it for two years. The whole stack can be self hosted is open source develop by an european based company.

Valord 2y ago

I share your concerns.

pomatic 2y ago

When they raised the 100M three years ago, I'm pretty sure they said they didn't need it and were saving it for a rainy day (or words to that effect), always seemed very odd at the time. Two q's for anyone who cares to speculate: have they burnt the original investment already? And if not, why would they need more funding? AFAICS there's no real competition in the market place for their product today, the only thing I can conceive is that they have a secret 'tailscale 2' project in the wings which is massively developer or capital intensive. Let's hope it is nothing related to AI band wagoning :-)

chubot 2y ago
Hm OK well thinking out loud, $100M / 3 is $33M / year? I don't know much about Tailscale, nor about how much it costs to run a company, but I thought it was mostly a software company? I would imagine that salaries are the main cost, and revenue could cover salaries? (seems like they have a solid model - https://tailscale.com/pricing https://tailscale.com/pricing) I'm sure they have some cloud fees, but I thought it was mostly "control plane" and not data plane, so it should be cheap? I could be massively misunderstanding what Tailscale is ... Did the product change a lot in the last 3 years?
- fragmede 2y ago
  > I don't know much about Tailscale, nor about how much it costs to run a company $33m/year is only 33 fully loaded software developers including all overhead like HR and managers and office space, and also a cloud hosting bill. 33 really isn't that many.
  - johnbellone 2y ago
    I'd be surprised if the average package for SWE is $1M/year (fully loaded).
    - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
      Generally package is around half of what company spends per extra engineer. And $500k average for a tech heavy product company doesn't sound too far off.

specialp 2y ago

There are plenty of enterprises that will pay them to run their services and provide better integrations while allowing open source users to continue. Now people will get upset because some of these things will be for those customers only but it is very hard to keep developing these things and give them out for free. Partially open source still allows those to extend the work they give to the community and they will probably still continue to have a free tier to get more enterprise customers in the end.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

This is mostly so that the founders can take some money off the table. The founders probably have $10 million cash after this and don't have to worry about rent ever again.

tptacek 2y ago
The founders of Tailscale probably weren't too worried about rent before Tailscale.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  Why? Did they have a previous exit?
  - vvillena 2y ago
    IIRC they were senior engineers from Google.