4 ms·

> Pix has spiced up Brazil’s fusty banking sector, but it gives the central bank a worrying amount of power I think a largely prefer a government-run payment s

> Pix has spiced up Brazil’s fusty banking sector, but it gives the central bank a worrying amount of power I think a largely prefer a government-run payment system than an US company monopoly.

rebanevapustus 2y ago
The Brazilian government is a *very* corrupt authoritarian oligarchy. I would take any US company over that any day.
- xinayder 2y ago
  Yet we, a developing "third-world" country, have a better functioning payment system than the US, where it takes days, or even weeks, for a wire transfer to land, and you pay a huge amount of fees for that. Cases in point: - To transfer money to a broker, I need to pay around $5 in transfer fees via ACH or wire - I want to change the custody of my stock market assets from one broker to another, and it will cost me $75 to move $60 worth of shares. Meanwhile, in Brazil, this process is free in every broker.
  - ave_b_2011 2y ago
    I don’t understand this binary. The UK was able to create a near-instant bank transfer system without monopolizing in the same way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments It costing more for instant transfers is just a regressive tax on the working poor.
    - xinayder 2y ago
      I can't find the details of the UK system, but it's not "monopolized" in Brazil. Perhaps due to the fact that the infra is provided by the Central Bank, and banks choosing to implement Pix support must implement the Pix APIs in their system.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      Everybody adopting an open protocol is "monopolizing" now...
  - alright2565 2y ago
    > To transfer money to a broker, I need to pay around $5 in transfer fees via ACH or wire I suggest switching to a better bank. This is unreasonable, my ACH transfers are free. > I want to change the custody of my stock market assets from one broker to another $75 sounds like a bargain, given the complexity it involves: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-acats-transfers-work/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-acats-transfers-w... But anyway, I recently transferred some assets between brokers. It was free because the sending broker's fee to transfer assets out only applies when transferring the whole account. The receiving broker is happy to receive the assets, and shouldn't be charging any fee.
  - rebanevapustus 2y ago
    It's cool that "we" have a payment system, however, I would never be comfortable using something whose people in charge are those that keep us (not me particularly because I've gladly left the country almost a decade ago) in this misery. I use Crypto for everything you've mentioned. It's instant, almost free, and alexandre(he deserves a lowercased a) can't take my money if he feels that writing his name in lowercase makes me unworthy of my civil rights.
    - xinayder 2y ago
      Do you have a guide on how to use it or what services accept crypto for this purpose?
  - jjice 2y ago
    Isn’t this what FedNow is for in the US? Genuinely curious since I feel like transfers still take days. My assumption is that it’s not fully adopted yet, but my understanding is that the US is in the process of adopting this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Hum, sorry, no. It's a very corrupt liberal oligarchy.
- anodari 2y ago
  Where did you get this idea of a 'very corrupt authoritarian oligarchy'? Brazil is not much different from any other democracy and is far less oligarchic than Trump's USA. Also, PIX is managed by our independent central bank."
  - rebanevapustus 2y ago
    There is no independent component of a country. It is very naive to claim so. https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/politica/por-decisao-de-moraes-policia-prende-suspeito-de-divulgar-informacoes-falsas-contra-stf-e-politicos/#goog_rewarded https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/politica/por-decisao-de-moraes-... What kind of non-authoritarian country arrests people for merely cursing at politicians on twitter? Moreover, what kind of non-authoritarian country issues hundreds of thousands of rulings by its Supreme Court? The Brazilian Supreme Court is an unelected entity that has complete control over the country, and firmly issues unappealable censorship arrests. There is absolutely nothing this tyrannical in almost any western democracy, sans the UK.
- maronato 2y ago
  This take is at best outdated and at worst disingenuous. Brazil’s democracy was threatened by an actual authoritarian with oligarchical ties during Bolsonaro’s presidency, but its institutions resisted, and he was democratically removed. Now he, his minions, the aspiring oligarchs, and the insurrectionists who attempted their own “January 6th” are facing real consequences — including jail time. You can’t say the same about the US and its actual oligarchs. (The corrupt part is true)
nicce 2y ago
Payment systems take huge fees. It is always good if they get back to the country and not elsewhere. Digital paying is something fundamental. Like electricity.
- augusto-moura 2y ago
  Brazilian Pix is free though, at least for the time being. IMO the biggest thing is not the money behind it, but the ability to track individual payments. Even that, I prefer the government to have that information, than some shady owner of a private company
  - souenzzo 2y ago
    PIX are free for persons. Companies may* pay for pix services. My bank (that is not a good bank) charges a fixed amount of 4 BRL (aprox 1 USD) per transaction (to send PIX. not to receive) PIX in "maquininhas" may cost ~1% to the seller. * may: banks are allowed to charge.
    - rpgbr 2y ago
      Which is way cheaper than credit/debit card charges from Visa and Mastercard.
      - marcosdumay 2y ago
        And there's no surprise fraud claims.
        xfalcox 2y ago
        My wife runs a small retail makeup shop on Shopify, which started before pix and those surprise false fraud claims almost killed the business. Pix was such a game changer. It is perfect.
    - 8bitbeep 2y ago
      > 4 BRL (aprox 1 USD) I wish. That's off by 50%
rafaquintanilha 2y ago
It's funny but also worrying how much Americans underestimate the impact a centralized government can have on people's lives. That probably means that eventually it will happen there. A centralized – often socialist – government is the _definition_ of monopoly, you can't escape from it without risking jail or worse. No U.S. monopoly, no matter how much you hate it, will get close to this, and you think it does, you are sincerely naive at least.
dtquad 2y ago
There are alternatives to both inefficient government-run monopolies and US tech giant monopolies. Even a small country like Denmark has multiple software and finance companies doing apps and software in the digital payments and banking field.
- Gud 2y ago
  Why do you assume a government-run monopoly is inefficient? You should try to take a train in Switzerland sometime. Its government run and I guarantee you will be mind blown over its efficiency.
  - wtcactus 2y ago
    You should take one in Portugal, where it’s also government run…
    - Gud 2y ago
      I made no assumption that government run organisations are necessarily efficient. The comment I responded to implied that government monopolies are inefficient by their nature, which I would argue against.
- Vinnl 2y ago
  You would think, but is it in practice? In the Netherlands (and I believe many/most other countries), practically all non-cash payments are handled by either Visa or Mastercard. Technically a duopoly, but that's not a huge improvement either.
  - dtquad 2y ago
    Interesting and important question. I know MobilePay by Danske Bank is one of the most popular payment apps and can be linked directly to a Danish bank account (probably using the Danish "Dankort" payment infrastructure) without Visa/Mastercard involvement. Most Danish POS and e-commerce solutions support MobilePay and surprisingly the biggest international POS/e-commerce providers also support MobilePay: https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/mobilepay/ https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/mobilepay/ https://stripe.com/en-dk/payment-method/mobilepay https://stripe.com/en-dk/payment-method/mobilepay https://help.shopify.com/da/manual/payments/shopify-payments/supported-countries/denmark https://help.shopify.com/da/manual/payments/shopify-payments... Our independence from US-based Visa/Mastercard payment infrastructure is enabled by our decades-old "Dankort" digital payment infrastructure that was initially based on magnetic strip cards. Even today most people opt for a so-called "Visa/Dankort" chip card that domestically use the Danish Dankort payment infrastructure but can internationally be used as a Visa.
TrackerFF 2y ago
I don't think it is a realistic option in the US, at least in the current climate. There are so many powerful and influential anti/small-government that are rabidly opposing anything made by the government, and offered to the people. The argument is always the same: - "It will stifle innovation" - "It is unfair to business" - "It will make people dependent on the government" - "It will give government more access to spy on the citizens" and the list goes on. For decades the American people have been told that anything the government touches will be expensive, inefficient, and lead to a more taxes. Private sector knows best, and all that. And it is especially bad right now. You had MAGA-influencers outright rejoicing that DOGE had laid off the 18F team, spreading the gospel that free (government-run) tax tools are an abomination.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  >For decades the American people have been told that anything the government touches will be expensive, inefficient, and lead to a more taxes. Private sector knows best, and all that. Do you have some counter arguments?
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    Do you mean US examples or world wide examples? Because I think the whole government are inefficient and suck is partly a self fulfilling prophecy. Swiss railways or how Taiwan created the semiconductor industry from scratch comes to mind. Estonia E-Government. Or like the Panama canal?
  - TrackerFF 2y ago
    Well, every municipal broadband service I've tried has been better than the laughable garbage some ISPs offer out in rural areas, where they have a monopoly.
  - squigz 2y ago
    Making an assertion without arguments does not necessitate counter arguments.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
dyauspitr 2y ago
UPI from India is a much better system in my opinion since it’s decentralized and doesn’t give all the power to the central bank.
- manquer 2y ago
  How so ? While it is P2P protocol, the network is pretty centralized. UPI is owned by NPCI(gov entity) and runs on top of IMPS both the networks are strongly regulated by RBI the central bank. There is fair amount of regulation and KYC/ AML requirements before an app/service gets direct access to the network and even then it can be pretty challenging. WhatsApp struggled for years to get UPI integration . Holding money in a wallet has even more regulations than merely transferring it . Payment networks tend to centralize by their nature. I see pix or UPI as competitor to Mastercard or VISA , they have proven it is possible to run a network far cheaper than claimed
gloomyday 2y ago
That is such an inane opinion by the author. I wonder if he/she knows central banks can literally print money. Helping to move it around is nothing, and benefits everyone.
- bjackman 2y ago
  It's the Economist, this kinda thing is just their weird party line

> Pix has spiced up Brazil’s fusty banking sector, but it gives the central bank a worrying amount of power I think a largely prefer a government-run payment system than an US company monopoly.

rebanevapustus 2y ago

The Brazilian government is a *very* corrupt authoritarian oligarchy. I would take any US company over that any day.

xinayder 2y ago
Yet we, a developing "third-world" country, have a better functioning payment system than the US, where it takes days, or even weeks, for a wire transfer to land, and you pay a huge amount of fees for that. Cases in point: - To transfer money to a broker, I need to pay around $5 in transfer fees via ACH or wire - I want to change the custody of my stock market assets from one broker to another, and it will cost me $75 to move $60 worth of shares. Meanwhile, in Brazil, this process is free in every broker.
- ave_b_2011 2y ago
  I don’t understand this binary. The UK was able to create a near-instant bank transfer system without monopolizing in the same way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments It costing more for instant transfers is just a regressive tax on the working poor.
  - xinayder 2y ago
    I can't find the details of the UK system, but it's not "monopolized" in Brazil. Perhaps due to the fact that the infra is provided by the Central Bank, and banks choosing to implement Pix support must implement the Pix APIs in their system.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    Everybody adopting an open protocol is "monopolizing" now...
- alright2565 2y ago
  > To transfer money to a broker, I need to pay around $5 in transfer fees via ACH or wire I suggest switching to a better bank. This is unreasonable, my ACH transfers are free. > I want to change the custody of my stock market assets from one broker to another $75 sounds like a bargain, given the complexity it involves: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-acats-transfers-work/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-acats-transfers-w... But anyway, I recently transferred some assets between brokers. It was free because the sending broker's fee to transfer assets out only applies when transferring the whole account. The receiving broker is happy to receive the assets, and shouldn't be charging any fee.
- rebanevapustus 2y ago
  It's cool that "we" have a payment system, however, I would never be comfortable using something whose people in charge are those that keep us (not me particularly because I've gladly left the country almost a decade ago) in this misery. I use Crypto for everything you've mentioned. It's instant, almost free, and alexandre(he deserves a lowercased a) can't take my money if he feels that writing his name in lowercase makes me unworthy of my civil rights.
  - xinayder 2y ago
    Do you have a guide on how to use it or what services accept crypto for this purpose?
- jjice 2y ago
  Isn’t this what FedNow is for in the US? Genuinely curious since I feel like transfers still take days. My assumption is that it’s not fully adopted yet, but my understanding is that the US is in the process of adopting this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow
marcosdumay 2y ago
Hum, sorry, no. It's a very corrupt liberal oligarchy.
anodari 2y ago
Where did you get this idea of a 'very corrupt authoritarian oligarchy'? Brazil is not much different from any other democracy and is far less oligarchic than Trump's USA. Also, PIX is managed by our independent central bank."
- rebanevapustus 2y ago
  There is no independent component of a country. It is very naive to claim so. https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/politica/por-decisao-de-moraes-policia-prende-suspeito-de-divulgar-informacoes-falsas-contra-stf-e-politicos/#goog_rewarded https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/politica/por-decisao-de-moraes-... What kind of non-authoritarian country arrests people for merely cursing at politicians on twitter? Moreover, what kind of non-authoritarian country issues hundreds of thousands of rulings by its Supreme Court? The Brazilian Supreme Court is an unelected entity that has complete control over the country, and firmly issues unappealable censorship arrests. There is absolutely nothing this tyrannical in almost any western democracy, sans the UK.
maronato 2y ago
This take is at best outdated and at worst disingenuous. Brazil’s democracy was threatened by an actual authoritarian with oligarchical ties during Bolsonaro’s presidency, but its institutions resisted, and he was democratically removed. Now he, his minions, the aspiring oligarchs, and the insurrectionists who attempted their own “January 6th” are facing real consequences — including jail time. You can’t say the same about the US and its actual oligarchs. (The corrupt part is true)

nicce 2y ago

Payment systems take huge fees. It is always good if they get back to the country and not elsewhere. Digital paying is something fundamental. Like electricity.

augusto-moura 2y ago
Brazilian Pix is free though, at least for the time being. IMO the biggest thing is not the money behind it, but the ability to track individual payments. Even that, I prefer the government to have that information, than some shady owner of a private company
- souenzzo 2y ago
  PIX are free for persons. Companies may* pay for pix services. My bank (that is not a good bank) charges a fixed amount of 4 BRL (aprox 1 USD) per transaction (to send PIX. not to receive) PIX in "maquininhas" may cost ~1% to the seller. * may: banks are allowed to charge.
  - rpgbr 2y ago
    Which is way cheaper than credit/debit card charges from Visa and Mastercard.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      And there's no surprise fraud claims.
      - xfalcox 2y ago
        My wife runs a small retail makeup shop on Shopify, which started before pix and those surprise false fraud claims almost killed the business. Pix was such a game changer. It is perfect.
  - 8bitbeep 2y ago
    > 4 BRL (aprox 1 USD) I wish. That's off by 50%

rafaquintanilha 2y ago

It's funny but also worrying how much Americans underestimate the impact a centralized government can have on people's lives. That probably means that eventually it will happen there. A centralized – often socialist – government is the _definition_ of monopoly, you can't escape from it without risking jail or worse. No U.S. monopoly, no matter how much you hate it, will get close to this, and you think it does, you are sincerely naive at least.

dtquad 2y ago

There are alternatives to both inefficient government-run monopolies and US tech giant monopolies. Even a small country like Denmark has multiple software and finance companies doing apps and software in the digital payments and banking field.

Gud 2y ago
Why do you assume a government-run monopoly is inefficient? You should try to take a train in Switzerland sometime. Its government run and I guarantee you will be mind blown over its efficiency.
- wtcactus 2y ago
  You should take one in Portugal, where it’s also government run…
  - Gud 2y ago
    I made no assumption that government run organisations are necessarily efficient. The comment I responded to implied that government monopolies are inefficient by their nature, which I would argue against.
Vinnl 2y ago
You would think, but is it in practice? In the Netherlands (and I believe many/most other countries), practically all non-cash payments are handled by either Visa or Mastercard. Technically a duopoly, but that's not a huge improvement either.
- dtquad 2y ago
  Interesting and important question. I know MobilePay by Danske Bank is one of the most popular payment apps and can be linked directly to a Danish bank account (probably using the Danish "Dankort" payment infrastructure) without Visa/Mastercard involvement. Most Danish POS and e-commerce solutions support MobilePay and surprisingly the biggest international POS/e-commerce providers also support MobilePay: https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/mobilepay/ https://docs.adyen.com/payment-methods/mobilepay/ https://stripe.com/en-dk/payment-method/mobilepay https://stripe.com/en-dk/payment-method/mobilepay https://help.shopify.com/da/manual/payments/shopify-payments/supported-countries/denmark https://help.shopify.com/da/manual/payments/shopify-payments... Our independence from US-based Visa/Mastercard payment infrastructure is enabled by our decades-old "Dankort" digital payment infrastructure that was initially based on magnetic strip cards. Even today most people opt for a so-called "Visa/Dankort" chip card that domestically use the Danish Dankort payment infrastructure but can internationally be used as a Visa.

TrackerFF 2y ago

I don't think it is a realistic option in the US, at least in the current climate. There are so many powerful and influential anti/small-government that are rabidly opposing anything made by the government, and offered to the people. The argument is always the same: - "It will stifle innovation" - "It is unfair to business" - "It will make people dependent on the government" - "It will give government more access to spy on the citizens" and the list goes on. For decades the American people have been told that anything the government touches will be expensive, inefficient, and lead to a more taxes. Private sector knows best, and all that. And it is especially bad right now. You had MAGA-influencers outright rejoicing that DOGE had laid off the 18F team, spreading the gospel that free (government-run) tax tools are an abomination.

DeathArrow 2y ago
>For decades the American people have been told that anything the government touches will be expensive, inefficient, and lead to a more taxes. Private sector knows best, and all that. Do you have some counter arguments?
- panick21_ 2y ago
  Do you mean US examples or world wide examples? Because I think the whole government are inefficient and suck is partly a self fulfilling prophecy. Swiss railways or how Taiwan created the semiconductor industry from scratch comes to mind. Estonia E-Government. Or like the Panama canal?
- TrackerFF 2y ago
  Well, every municipal broadband service I've tried has been better than the laughable garbage some ISPs offer out in rural areas, where they have a monopoly.
- squigz 2y ago
  Making an assertion without arguments does not necessitate counter arguments.
- littlestymaar 2y ago

dyauspitr 2y ago

UPI from India is a much better system in my opinion since it’s decentralized and doesn’t give all the power to the central bank.

manquer 2y ago
How so ? While it is P2P protocol, the network is pretty centralized. UPI is owned by NPCI(gov entity) and runs on top of IMPS both the networks are strongly regulated by RBI the central bank. There is fair amount of regulation and KYC/ AML requirements before an app/service gets direct access to the network and even then it can be pretty challenging. WhatsApp struggled for years to get UPI integration . Holding money in a wallet has even more regulations than merely transferring it . Payment networks tend to centralize by their nature. I see pix or UPI as competitor to Mastercard or VISA , they have proven it is possible to run a network far cheaper than claimed

gloomyday 2y ago

That is such an inane opinion by the author. I wonder if he/she knows central banks can literally print money. Helping to move it around is nothing, and benefits everyone.

bjackman 2y ago
It's the Economist, this kinda thing is just their weird party line