11 ms·

The ADHD body double: A unique tool for getting things done

365 points by rzk 2y ago

zeristor 2y ago
Strangely I’ve found myself to be something like 400% more productive when pair programming. I’ve not heard anyone mention this aspect of paired programming for people with ADHD, although as a colleague once mentioned I jump from one thing to another, but in the end I’ve done the loop.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Absolutely same experience. It's quite draining but extremely effective.
  - bitwize 2y ago
    That kind of aligns with Guy Steele's experience pair programming... with Richard Stallman: "My first thought afterward was: it was a great experience, very intense, and that I never wanted to do it again in my life." https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch06.html https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch06.html
    - Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
      It helped that they were working on an interesting problem. Most problems that need solving are not interesting.
- N2yhWNXQN3k9 2y ago
  There is very little evidence for this. IMO, it is feel good advice that sounds right. Try background noise of any sort, until you find a fit. I can't pay attention to anything anymore without noise. A little rumble in thy ears does wonders. I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else (in the context of ADHD -- there are other uses for it). That isn't a viable strategy for growth, imo. Also, if you are new to taking stimulants, you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth. There is a non-zero cost (I would say a sacrifice) to treating ADHD with amphetamines or other dopamine reuptake inhibitors / dopamingenics. If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%20%22Body%20Doubling%22 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%20%22Body%20Doubling%... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%20ADHD https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%20... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22% https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%
  - viraptor 2y ago
    > I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else So... you're basically saying it works? Because that's what it does in practice. The other person is the external motivator for keeping attention on the task. > you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth Got any support for that? (Not being dismissive; never heard of that beyond the usual "effectiveness goes down over time") > If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs: Yup, there's still little in terms of specific research, but if you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers... it's close to a specific implementation of those ideas rather than a separate thing.
    - N2yhWNXQN3k9 2y ago
      > So... you're basically saying it works? Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns. > Got any support for that? Anecdotally, ~25 years of eating them, but there is plenty of evidence that prolonged use of amphetamine causes structural neuronal changes, even at therapeutic doses. Here is one article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38665308/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38665308/ > you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers What papers? What do they say? Also, fear (an external motivator) is a great way to release catecholamines for positive outcomes in ADHD, but it is also a great way to increase general stress, which has many other outcomes (free cortisol changes, etc).
      - pjerem 2y ago
        > Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns. Except that pair programming doesn’t make you work under pressure. I extensively use this technique for body doubling as much as I can. It motivates me to start the task and I also love the exchange : you can learn things, teach things, be stuck together, find solutions together, swear together, laugh, agree on how horrible is this thing you must fix … In fact it’s what I’d call real teamwork. I never felt it like pressure and it gives me a lot of energy. Incidentally, I think the only friends I made at work (the real friends you invite at home even when you don’t work at the same place anymore) were through frequent pair programming sessions. I think there is something about knowing how the other person thinks that helps bonding together.
- bitwize 2y ago
  Pair programming flummoxes me because I find it significantly harder to concentrate when someone's watching. It's like having that execrable old Visual Basic feature where it flags up syntax errors if you cursor off a line, forcing you to correct the errors before moving to a different line. Except now implemented with a smelly human flagging up the errors! I get it. XP, and Agile in general, is all about relying less on individual programmers' focus on the task and more on external checks (a shoulder surfer and automated tests). The revolution of software development in the 21st century is building more effective teams rather than relying on super-productive individuals (the fabled 10x engineers). But I don't have to like working that way, and I don't.
  - nico 2y ago
    My personal experience with pair programming is that I first was very intimidated by it and instinctively hated it Then, it slowly creeped up at work, and I noticed that initially, most people seemed uncomfortable with it. But, if we were able to build trust and get to a place where we weren't judging each other, just trying to make progress with the task, then things would magically flow and we could solve things that each person individually had been stuck on We then mostly kept it to a weekly activity, in which we could tackle either specific tickets from a certain list that no-one was actively working on, or on specific things that someone would bring up and needed help with I believe it's probably not the way to work every single moment, but it is definitely a very powerful and useful tool
- phito 2y ago
  I’ve never really understood the hype around pair programming. In practice, it’s usually just sitting with a coworker who wants to chat and crack jokes while working. That’s fine socially, but I don’t see any productivity gains. What I find actually useful is a short, focused meeting with the relevant people before coding. That way, we align on what’s being built, resolve confusion, and then I can just go write the code. Once I'm typing, I don’t see how having someone else there helps. It mostly just gets in the way — we keep having to stop and explain what we're thinking, which slows things down. And usually the other person gets confused at some point, so I have to stop and explain things again to get them back on track.
  - pydry 2y ago
    The productivity gains come from: * You get unstuck faster. * When the passenger does background research/slacking stakeholders meaning that the driver doesnt have to context switch. Sometimes they even just know the answer to something you would have to spend 30 minutes researching. * When the passenger spots something you didnt (antipattern, bug, problem) and they spot it quickly before you dug yourself a hole with it. * When it makes it easier to take bigger decisions and bigger risks as a pair - risks/decisions most people wouldnt feel confident about taking solo. * When those decisions are better - fewer rabbit holes are jumped into, more landmines are averted. * When your respective coding philosophies developed over decades hit one another and you try to synthesize something that accomodates the best of both (this is next level pairing). Mostly I find the productivity gains come from the quality of decisions being higher, which is invisible short term but overwhelming long term. It doesnt help much if the person is very junior and needs to have everything explained but if theyre junior pairing is the best way to train and mold them into something better, which is probably what you want, right?
    - phito 2y ago
      I already get those benefits from focused pre-coding discussions and pull request reviews. They allow for high-quality decisions, involve more perspectives, and are asynchronous. Pair programming might help when training juniors, since they need that level of hand-holding. But for experienced devs, constant back-and-forth while typing mostly just adds friction.
readthenotes1 2y ago
Couldn't see anything but the menu
- taberiand 2y ago
  I had to switch to reader mode. You're not missing much
- fnordian_slip 2y ago
  Same here, but if this is because of Firefox mobile, then reader mode is the answer, at least it was for me.
lemming 2y ago
An online application of this principle is Focusmate, where you schedule calls with essentially random strangers and just work together. There's very little chit chat and it's not some weird front for a hookup scheme. I've been amazed at how well it works for me. I can't really explain why, after all the other person can't see my screen so I could just be doom scrolling YouTube the whole time, but for some reason I don't. I don't use it all the time, but when I need to get something unappealing done I still use it. I've also used it for exercise, and I've had partners use it for all sorts of weird things that they had been procrastinating. I highly recommend it, I thought it would be far weirder than it turned out to be, and it's really useful.
- senordevnyc 2y ago
  I could have written this. I have ADHD and I've done 500+ FocusMate sessions in the last year. I've found it sticky and helpful like nothing else I've ever tried, and I can't even explain why. It just feels like some kind of brain hack.
  - Aerbil313 2y ago
    There was a recent discussion about body doubling on HN. One of the theories is that prior to modernity, people mostly worked together and that’s how we are wired. Doubly so for us ADHD people, who would tend to partake in hunting, war or such activities.
- ravetcofx 2y ago
  There are free discord groups for this too
  - jaboutboul 2y ago
    Care to share some, friend?
  - stephantul 2y ago
    Very curious about this
BrianHenryIE 2y ago
Yep, my sister makes fun of me that her mere presence makes me more productive. (when I shared an apartment with her in my early thirties) she'd sit in my room just chatting to me and I would tidy and clean without her doing anything, whereas I'd been meaning to do that for months. I suggested the idea of a responsiblabuddy website today to my wife – if we're both in the same town I'd commit to coming to your house on Saturday and you'd commit to coming to mine on Sunday and I'd finally tidy my shed / weld those batteries / list those items on fb marketplace etc. Then I realised I'd need a responsabilabuddy to get me to start and finish the website! There was a guy running a co-working space in Dublin (Ireland) who would open it up on the occasional Sunday for "Sideproject Sundays" which I found great for focus. Edit: there are no search results for "responsiblabuddy", I know I didn't come up with that term
- MasterBel2 2y ago
  try “responsibilibuddy” :)
- fsiefken 2y ago
  the term 'accountability partner' is used
mrmincent 2y ago
I wfh pretty much 100%, and have inattentive adhd. I’ll occasionally go spend a day at a WeWork, either with other workmates, or by myself. On days that I’m with workmates, I get nothing done. On days I’m by myself, sitting by strangers, I’m really productive. I can just lock in and chug through my work. It never made sense to me until I learned about body-doubling, kind of feels like what I was inadvertently doing on those solo days.
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  I have a similar phenomenon - I wfh and if my wife is home while I try to work I find it more difficult to get in the zone than if I’m home alone. But if I go to a coworking space with others around I find it easier. Last week I finally rented a small private office. The difficulty finding coworking spaces that offered external monitors, 24/7 access, and direct sunlight in a part of NYC that was convenient led me to just get the private office. Renting was a no brainer after I tried it for a day. The little room outside home for me just to work felt shockingly great. But now I wonder if in time I’ll regret not going with a dedicated shared desk where I’m around others.
paulmooreparks 2y ago
Wow... I start reading the article, and just as I'm thinking, "This site might be helpful for finding tips on how to foc..." ...A popup slides into view in the lower right-hand corner. That's when I closed the tab. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- jagged-chisel 2y ago
  I think you dropped this: \
rpgwaiter 2y ago
I’m sure this works for some people. Personally I loathe social interaction of any kind, and mixing that with engineering gets me to my mental/emotional limits much faster. On my own I can work about 2 hours on and 10 mins off, sometimes for 10+ hours total. If I have a 2 hour collab coding call, that’s about all I’ll do that’s productive that day. I’l literally have to spend the rest of that day mentally recovering from the stress of the call.
- jfrbfbreudh 2y ago
  Same here. I started an in-office job recently as the company’s highest ranking engineer and my productivity has plummeted vs WFH. I found myself having to allocate mental bandwidth to my environment to allow for the possibility of being interrupted by others, so I ended up both less productive and more tired.
  - dlivingston 2y ago
    Are you in an open office? I found that to be extremely fatiguing relative to a private office, a shared office, or even a cubicle.
  - criddell 2y ago
    What you see as an interruption is somebody else clearing their path. It could be that your personal productivity drop is resulting in a productivity gain for the group.
- lurkshark 2y ago
  Whenever I read about pair programming as a standard technique (like XP) it sounds so great in theory but in practice I find it extremely draining whenever I’ve dabbled.
  - pydry 2y ago
    If you have psychological safety and develop a bond of trust with the person it is far less draining. Those things need to be developed and the working environment needs to make them possible, though. I find that the fact that I rarely get stuck for long and the mistakes I make tend to get caught more quickly makes pairing vastly more productive in practice. The productivity isnt directly in the speed of code output but the compounded effect over time of it being higher quality - meaning vastly less time doing post hoc debugging, bugfixing, reworking code, etc. It is invisible over the space of one or two tickets, visible over weeks and overwhelming over months. At one company my pairing team routinely (and quietly) worked 9-3:30pm or 4pm while the surrounding nonpairing teams worked overtime and still delivered way less. If you can nail it it really is almost unreasonably effective.
whatever1 2y ago
I just want to get to work from 10pm to 4am. Just me my music and the night highway / city /nature sounds. Anything is possible in that timeframe. Too bad this is incompatible with the society. So we got to pay the context switching tax.
- 47282847 2y ago
  The last time I had a sort-of externally imposed schedule was at school. At university, attendance wasn’t required, nobody cared as long as I passed the tests. Since then, which is over 20 years ago, I have exclusively worked jobs that are WFH, with teams on various time zones and frequent travel (for others, not me), so everybody is used to scheduling calls via doodle etc.
OhioMan2943 2y ago
I have a family member who does this. But I think it's more because they've fallen down an internet rabbit hole which has basically removed all personal autonomy. They just do it because everyone else is doing it. It's just called working with someone else.
neilv 2y ago
> What would chi have to do with a body double? The body double might be a chi balancer or protective barrier helping to contain and calm the energy in and around the person with ADHD. Does the writer believe that, or are they pandering?
- 47282847 2y ago
  In modern terms, it is nervous system co-regulation, and, yes, that’s a thing. Many people with ADHD also suffer from complex PTSD (see comorbidity studies), and unless treated, this has effects like social anxiety and emotional dysregulation. Emotional neglect in early childhood for example can be a ‘silent‘, non-obvious factor at play here (even caring parents can be emotionally unavailable for longer periods of time due to environmental or personal reasons!), which for the later adult means they have not (yet) learned the skill to regulate their nervous system on their own and can make use of a replacement ‘caretaker‘.
wormius 2y ago
My roommate comes in and talks, and while they're doing that I automatically start cleaning my room. I am a slob otherwise. But something about that, it gives me a chance to be away from "online" while also giving me a sort of mental "space"/distraction so I'm not focused/anxious/worried and seems to help me reduce my "executive dysfunction". I also have a tendency to place self-demands and so it makes me doing things I want to do (not like cleaning room but projects) more difficulty because I feel the pressure to do it, so I resist. Having someone in the room helps me relax that self-demand. I don't "should" I just "do". I used to do a lot more socially and my computer was in the living room with the roomie, but I'm just in my room most of the time, and this is making me think - maybe I should go back to the living room with my computer (since she's out there too most days), maybe that will help me be more productive in programming/projects, etc...
- deinonychus 2y ago
  >My roommate comes in and talks, and while they're doing that I automatically start cleaning my room. The moment a guest enters my apartment, my body immediately begins cleaning my kitchen and putting away dishes and cleaning up messes or tidying my living room. I never thought of this in the body doubling context, but as a self-soothing thing for social pressure. Or maybe genuine guilt for the state of my apartment. It gives me something to do instead of just standing around maintaining eye contact (and the second effect of making the place nicer to exist in, for me and my guest). Kind of reminds me of another social self-soothing thing, where if I'm not entirely comfortable with a guest (a newer friends or romantic partner) I subconsciously place something in between us, like standing on opposite sides of the kitchen island. >Having someone in the room helps me relax that self-demand. I don't "should" I just "do". I feel this in my bones. I've been living alone for a few years and I'm actually going to move in with a roommate soon to see if it can keep me "online" more often without draining me. I totally think it's a good idea to try hang or work in the living room with your laptop.
onemoresoop 2y ago
I may have ADHD, I never went for a diagnosis and found body doubling useful at times, especially when I was in school some decades ago, back then I had no name for it. However, I find white noise very helpful with staying on the task and with increased focus. My company moved, about a year ago, into a very cramped office that is also extremely noisy. This exasperated me, I would get drained of energy in a couple of hours and my focus was being severy affected. I even considered quitting and looking for something else. As a last resort I started listening to white noise. I’ve been using white noise (white+brown+pink) for about a year now and find that it helps not only with cancelling out the noise but with focus and staying on task in general. I even use it at home at times. I know this may not be useful for everybody but I’m sure it could help out some of you. I use https://noises.online/ https://noises.online/ and mix all the types of white noise at the same time for maximim coverage but any type of white noise generator would do. To me it feels like being close to a waterfall. At first my ears hurt a bit after a few hours of white noise but got used to it after a while.
- felipeerias 2y ago
  White noise and similar soundscapes (rain, water…) help me focus much better than pure silence. Perhaps a predictable sound that drowns all others allows my brain to “shut down” the little part of it that is on edge waiting for noises and distractions.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  There’s an app/service called Endel which makes music I find helpful for focus too. My family finds it eerily void and dead, like it’s technically music but lacks any soul. I don’t mind; I don’t listen to it for entertainment. It’s like the white noise. I also like the white/brown/pink noise a lot. I think sometimes I crave a bit more texture and feature in the noise and so I’ll pull up endel, but I get by really well without it a lot of the time too.
- sixpackpg 2y ago
  I feel the same about being drained with noises. I use white noise too. But make sure to only use white noise when I want to focus, as it feels like I've conditioned myself to be focused when it's on. Previously, I had it permanently on and I found the effectiveness dropped
growingkittens 2y ago
Body doubles work especially well for tasks that involve changing visual context and sequencing. As a child, I noticed that my brain worked differently when someone was in my room. I begged my mom to stay in my room so I could clean my room, but she didn't understand what the point was.
esaym 2y ago
Wish I could read it. The menu stays open on Firefox even if you hit the X. https://imgur.com/a/T6tY7dc https://imgur.com/a/T6tY7dc
- janwillemb 2y ago
  I could read it using the reader view
  - riedel 2y ago
    Sometimes it needs those constructive comments. Thanks, this worked for me.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- UncleSlacky 2y ago
  I blocked the menu using Ublock Origin.
Xiol32 2y ago
This article is clearly written to the word count and not the overall content. A painful read.
- bcoughlan 2y ago
  I'm nearly certain that the images and the text are AI generated from other sources and perhaps tweaked a bit. The headings are the giveaway. Low signal-to-noise ratio. Google search results is full of this stuff, but first time seeing it at the top of HN
  - ascorbic 2y ago
    The article says it was originally written in 1996. It's on the site of the Attention Deficit Disorders Association. The images are generic stock photography.
    - netsharc 2y ago
      If the URL claiming uploaded in 2015 can be believed (i.e. in the time before the Internet was 95% sewage), this could be that original article: https://www.gettingclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Body-Double-.pdf https://www.gettingclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Body... It's much more fucking concise than the drivel of the republished stuff.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
I love how something so low-tech like just sitting next to someone can short-circuit the ADHD chaos spiral. Like, no fancy app, no productivity hack, just a warm body in a chair nearby. It's kind of beautiful.
snvzz 2y ago
Website overrides browser scroll behavior, forcing laggy (i.e. animated) scroll. As such, it's extremely irritating. Archive version[0] does not have such problem. 0. https://archive.is/r5SZc https://archive.is/r5SZc
snvzz 2y ago
Requiring another person is a major issue. I wonder if a plushie can act as substitute. Keep it on the corner of the desk when on task. Maybe have different plushies for different tasks.
tofflos 2y ago
What's unique about this? This is basically what every parent and teacher already does.
- janwillemb 2y ago
  True, but this is about adults in a professional context.
ulrischa 2y ago
This is why childs in Germany get a Schulbegleiter. A person that just goes with the child to school
- tom89999 2y ago
  Ich muss mich aber fragen warum dies nötig wurde. Niemand an meiner Schule hatte eine Allergie, Erkrankung dieser Art oder irgendwas. Was ist seit den 1980ern passiert? Sind es Umweltgifte? Farb- und Aromastoffe? Zuviel Süsses? Ich kann es mir kaum vorstellen dass das menschliche Erbgut so kaputt gegangen ist. Wir haben eine exzellente medizinische Versorgung und Forschung und Entwicklung gehabt. Mein Frau lehrt an einer Waldorf-Schule. Die Kinder leiden wirklich keinen Hunger und Not. Leider aber werden viele Kinder gekündigt da sie verhaltensauffällig und somit unbeschulbar sind. Es kann doch nicht sein, ich würde es verstehen wenn die pure Armut oder Gewalt in der Familie die Kinder kaputtmacht. Sind es die Smartphones?
  - heeen2 2y ago
    An einer Waldorfschule hast Du selection bias
Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
This is where remote work goes off the rails, but then it’s wild how intentionally isolating the implementation of RTO that many large corporations are doing now. They line people up in rows, put headphones on their heads and wire them up to Teams and Jira to spend the whole day in isolation. Because taking a walk to another floor of building to talk to someone like a normal human being is too wasteful, but somehow forcing everyone to spend hours commuting isn’t. It’s the worst of both worlds.
- lionkor 2y ago
  That sounds awful. I go to the office to chat with everyone, it's incredible how much work gets done when you can just walk over to someone and debug or rubbery ducky in real time.
  - Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
    Yes. I got fired from that place for being too negative and now work somewhere much more sane. The CEO to his credit went on a campaign to improve the culture, but middle management obstinately refused to change a single thing. I recently heard he got fired by the board too, go figure.
    - stitched2gethr 2y ago
      Remote work did a number on middle management. When many of them realized that if they aren't the strategic brain at the top, and they aren't individual contributers, and they can supervise butts in chais, then they aren't actually providing that much value.
      - firoso 2y ago
        So adapt. Learn to curate your team and their work. Lead by helping people organize, getting obstacles out of their way, shielding them from alarmist BS from higher management, and stop worrying about butts in seats. Focus on agreements, goals, commitments, accountability, growth, and coaching. It's not that hard.
daenney 2y ago
> While there’s no research to prove its effectiveness [..] > Originally published in 1996, this article was republished on February 20th, 2025.
coldblues 2y ago
Focusmate is probably the most popular tool in this category. I don't like the other ones, I am more comfortable in a 1-1 video session rather than multiple people. It works really well when I want to force myself to get something done. For the most comprehensive and effective solution, medication is still the go-to. Disregard any stigma and misguided fears around it and just get medicated.
lifeisstillgood 2y ago
Wow - I actually do this - did not know it had a name but pairing up with someone actually makes it easier (although loads of coders I know dislike working with others - so pair programming is an attempt to do this technique without knowing who has adhd or not?
robin_reala 2y ago
There are a bunch of “study with me” videos on YouTube that aim to do a similar thing, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex_bNIFR1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex_bNIFR1A
- Nevermark 2y ago
  Where does specialization end? Personally, I would like to vicariously YouTube double with a “friend” on our private jet. For about four hours, then another hour looking out the window, listening to said friend continuing to work, while I enjoy a well earned inflight (I.e. home made) cocktail before we land on a tropical island. Someone would like to host videos like that for a living.
suzzer99 2y ago
I don't necessarily need someone there all the time. But talking it out really helps when I need get over that hump and get going on some annoying problem. I've also found it helps sometimes to have the TV on in the other room, on some mindless sports pundit show that I can half-listen to. When I have some task I don't want to do, especially if it's something no one is expecting me to do right away but I still need to get it done, I go to Starbucks and don't leave until it's finished.
bgnn 2y ago
This site (add.org) doesn't function on Firefox mobile.
- _whiteCaps_ 2y ago
  I had to click Reader Mode to see it
INTPenis 2y ago
This is super interesting. I can only speak anecdotally but my older brother has ADD and he has already spent 4-5 weeks writing a powershell script to automate a trivial task at work. But whenever I visit he makes huge breakthroughs and I notice that he really wants me to come visit, and he asks me more and more questions on IM and shares his thoughts and progress. He has a hard time coming out and saying what he feels but I'm observing that he works better with me present. What's funny though is that I'm the absolute opposite. When someone is present and only slightly focused on what I'm doing, I act as if I have ADD.
asar 2y ago
Really interesting method. I've been calling a similar strategy the library effect. Whenever I work in an environment where other people are productive (or at least look productive) I can focus much better and get in the zone. It's now gotten to a point where I'm actively seeking desks with my screen exposed to the room, so people would be able to see me procrastinate, guilt tripping me to limit this sort of behavior.
- deadbabe 2y ago
  This used to work for me, but not anymore. The less I care about what other people think the more I don’t care about procrastinating even when they’re right next to me.
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  > Really interesting method. I've been calling a similar strategy the library effect As libraries reinvent themselves for an era where all the world’s knowledge is available on my cell phone, I wish more emphasis was placed on meeting booths. Because then I’d work from them all day and never consider coworking spaces.
- deinonychus 2y ago
  > It's now gotten to a point where I'm actively seeking desks with my screen exposed to the room, so people would be able to see me procrastinate, guilt tripping me to limit this sort of behavior. I have this same brain. Working in public at a coffee shop is a great baseline, but it's even better if I can feel the social pressure to not fuck off even if it's made up by my own neurotic head. It's a crazy double-edged sword to wield. Really useful, but I think it heightens burnout and I can't stand to stay in the same place for long due to the palpable buildup of pressure to Go Home.
jamesbfb 2y ago
In my 40s and I’ve recently been diagnosed with inattentive adhd. TFA makes a lot of sense to me given I’m one of the rare people at my company who commutes to the office every day even though we are an in-person optional workplace. Whenever I’ve had to WFH, I’ve struggled massively to gain an initial focus. Although medication has helped tremendously, I still feel much more productive in an office setting.
deepsun 2y ago
Looks related to XP (Extreme Programming), but the problem is that you get tired and stressed way too fast to reap the benefits.
bentt 2y ago
I find coworking spaces with other people around hits on thos effect. You don’t even have to be near the people, just in the same area. And on the flip side, it seems there is no remote way of getting the same feeling. Even having my business partner on Discord doesn’t really do it. He doesn’t feel like he is parallel working as much as TOO close in that case.
Tade0 2y ago
My most productive period within the last 12 months was when I rented a desk in a co-working space for the summer so that I could catch up with a friend who also went there. To me it was less his mere presence and more the ability to immediately share any thoughts that would occur to me. Also air conditioning. Same goes with chores - I would much rather have someone be in the same room while I e.g. do the dishes or cook. I also noticed that if I don't have anyone close, I start talking to myself. That sounds like a strong argument for working from the office and it is, but to me it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages. For one I could pull this off only because my commute was short thanks to it being vacation season, so traffic was way smaller than normal.
- criddell 2y ago
  > I could pull this off only because my commute was short The other critical factor was sharing a space with somebody who wanted to work in a similar way. If you shared that space with somebody who was significantly more or less social, the impedance mismatch could have been very negative.
  - AbstractH24 2y ago
    Would be interesting to create a tool that efficiently matched people this way.
sameermanek 2y ago
So, basically schizos can cancel out their adhd?
chneu 2y ago
The podcast Science Vs just had an ADHD episode. They talk about body doubling and a bunch of other ADHD stuff. Good episode. Recommend. Be aware that most folks who think they have ADHD really don't. Just like "OCD" and "migraines", people just like to throw labels on themselves.
BOOSTERHIDROGEN 2y ago
So, this is basically what Mark is trying to do, isn't it? Building a metaverse where everyone can virtually body double.
- viraptor 2y ago
  That concept doesn't need metaverse. If you can body double with someone, you can do it over any communication medium.
Uptrenda 2y ago
Yeah, nothing like an open office with random interruptions, noises, and movements to improve your focus.
- viraptor 2y ago
  It may not work for you, but... kinda, yes. My most productive days are while waiting for the periodic car checkup at the dealer and it's effectively an open office environment. But no, an actual open office every day would not give the same result. Brains be weird.
thimkerbell 2y ago
[flagged]
keybored 2y ago
> The ADHB body double Okay. Maybe I can apply this metaphorical technique > You’re gonna need a literal body I’m out.
codesnik 2y ago
yep. it works. SOMETIMES.
parentheses 2y ago
https://www.focusmate.com/ https://www.focusmate.com/ I used this during the early pandemic and found it very useful
hbarka 2y ago
Does having a cool calm collected cat next to you count?
zoogeny 2y ago
I've been thinking about this for a while. Seeing paid services like Focusmate, Flow Club and Focus101 show the basic idea is attractive enough to make into a lifestyle sized business. But my idea was a bit more. A lot of people are leaving religions for many reasons. One of the interesting parts of religion, from my perspective, is a community of people meeting at some cadence (e.g. once per week). At that time, they all make a public commitment to some set of values. It's like a shared affirmation. This led me to wonder if this ritualistic activity is important in a psychological way that is effective outside of theistic or other dogmatic beliefs. I was thinking of a service exactly like the ones mentioned, except it would also include some kind of intention setting. The word "prayer" is a little loaded and often brings to mind asking a God for some kind of favor. And "intention" is more like a stated goal. It is interesting that in the modern world we feel comfortable stating/sharing intentions that are productivity related. But we don't share intentions that are more broadly ethical/moral in the same way that religions promoted. If anyone has examples of services that do what Focusmate/Flow Club/etc. are doing but on a broader scale, let me know.
daxfohl 2y ago
Not for my kid. Even sitting right next to her, she'll zone out and start doodling for hours unless we're on her every couple minutes.
mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
What browsers does this site support? It is broken on Firefox mobile.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Firefox mobile + read mode works
DLion 2y ago
So did they just discover pair programming? :D Also, I'm reading lots of comments that are pointing out that they don't like doing pair programming because they do it wrongly. In the past I wrote an article about it: https://domenicoluciani.com/2022/07/22/misleading-pair-programming.html https://domenicoluciani.com/2022/07/22/misleading-pair-progr..., I hope it helps to clarify some concepts behind this way of working

365 points by rzk 2y ago

Strangely I’ve found myself to be something like 400% more productive when pair programming. I’ve not heard anyone mention this aspect of paired programming for people with ADHD, although as a colleague once mentioned I jump from one thing to another, but in the end I’ve done the loop.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
Absolutely same experience. It's quite draining but extremely effective.
- bitwize 2y ago
  That kind of aligns with Guy Steele's experience pair programming... with Richard Stallman: "My first thought afterward was: it was a great experience, very intense, and that I never wanted to do it again in my life." https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch06.html https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch06.html
  - Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
    It helped that they were working on an interesting problem. Most problems that need solving are not interesting.
N2yhWNXQN3k9 2y ago
There is very little evidence for this. IMO, it is feel good advice that sounds right. Try background noise of any sort, until you find a fit. I can't pay attention to anything anymore without noise. A little rumble in thy ears does wonders. I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else (in the context of ADHD -- there are other uses for it). That isn't a viable strategy for growth, imo. Also, if you are new to taking stimulants, you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth. There is a non-zero cost (I would say a sacrifice) to treating ADHD with amphetamines or other dopamine reuptake inhibitors / dopamingenics. If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%20%22Body%20Doubling%22 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%20%22Body%20Doubling%... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%20ADHD https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%20... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22% https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Body%20Double%22%
- viraptor 2y ago
  > I severely question anecdotes that pair programming does anything other than motivate you to not look like a moron wasting time in front of someone else So... you're basically saying it works? Because that's what it does in practice. The other person is the external motivator for keeping attention on the task. > you might be surprised how much worse it gets later in life, especially if you have been taking them since youth Got any support for that? (Not being dismissive; never heard of that beyond the usual "effectiveness goes down over time") > If you doubt this, there is very little mention of body doubling in literature outside of blogs: Yup, there's still little in terms of specific research, but if you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers... it's close to a specific implementation of those ideas rather than a separate thing.
  - N2yhWNXQN3k9 2y ago
    > So... you're basically saying it works? Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns. > Got any support for that? Anecdotally, ~25 years of eating them, but there is plenty of evidence that prolonged use of amphetamine causes structural neuronal changes, even at therapeutic doses. Here is one article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38665308/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38665308/ > you look at the papers about externalising motivation/triggers What papers? What do they say? Also, fear (an external motivator) is a great way to release catecholamines for positive outcomes in ADHD, but it is also a great way to increase general stress, which has many other outcomes (free cortisol changes, etc).
    - pjerem 2y ago
      > Working under pressure isn't a viable therapy, IMO. In my experience, it is a path to burn out and diminishing returns. Except that pair programming doesn’t make you work under pressure. I extensively use this technique for body doubling as much as I can. It motivates me to start the task and I also love the exchange : you can learn things, teach things, be stuck together, find solutions together, swear together, laugh, agree on how horrible is this thing you must fix … In fact it’s what I’d call real teamwork. I never felt it like pressure and it gives me a lot of energy. Incidentally, I think the only friends I made at work (the real friends you invite at home even when you don’t work at the same place anymore) were through frequent pair programming sessions. I think there is something about knowing how the other person thinks that helps bonding together.
bitwize 2y ago
Pair programming flummoxes me because I find it significantly harder to concentrate when someone's watching. It's like having that execrable old Visual Basic feature where it flags up syntax errors if you cursor off a line, forcing you to correct the errors before moving to a different line. Except now implemented with a smelly human flagging up the errors! I get it. XP, and Agile in general, is all about relying less on individual programmers' focus on the task and more on external checks (a shoulder surfer and automated tests). The revolution of software development in the 21st century is building more effective teams rather than relying on super-productive individuals (the fabled 10x engineers). But I don't have to like working that way, and I don't.
- nico 2y ago
  My personal experience with pair programming is that I first was very intimidated by it and instinctively hated it Then, it slowly creeped up at work, and I noticed that initially, most people seemed uncomfortable with it. But, if we were able to build trust and get to a place where we weren't judging each other, just trying to make progress with the task, then things would magically flow and we could solve things that each person individually had been stuck on We then mostly kept it to a weekly activity, in which we could tackle either specific tickets from a certain list that no-one was actively working on, or on specific things that someone would bring up and needed help with I believe it's probably not the way to work every single moment, but it is definitely a very powerful and useful tool
phito 2y ago
I’ve never really understood the hype around pair programming. In practice, it’s usually just sitting with a coworker who wants to chat and crack jokes while working. That’s fine socially, but I don’t see any productivity gains. What I find actually useful is a short, focused meeting with the relevant people before coding. That way, we align on what’s being built, resolve confusion, and then I can just go write the code. Once I'm typing, I don’t see how having someone else there helps. It mostly just gets in the way — we keep having to stop and explain what we're thinking, which slows things down. And usually the other person gets confused at some point, so I have to stop and explain things again to get them back on track.
- pydry 2y ago
  The productivity gains come from: * You get unstuck faster. * When the passenger does background research/slacking stakeholders meaning that the driver doesnt have to context switch. Sometimes they even just know the answer to something you would have to spend 30 minutes researching. * When the passenger spots something you didnt (antipattern, bug, problem) and they spot it quickly before you dug yourself a hole with it. * When it makes it easier to take bigger decisions and bigger risks as a pair - risks/decisions most people wouldnt feel confident about taking solo. * When those decisions are better - fewer rabbit holes are jumped into, more landmines are averted. * When your respective coding philosophies developed over decades hit one another and you try to synthesize something that accomodates the best of both (this is next level pairing). Mostly I find the productivity gains come from the quality of decisions being higher, which is invisible short term but overwhelming long term. It doesnt help much if the person is very junior and needs to have everything explained but if theyre junior pairing is the best way to train and mold them into something better, which is probably what you want, right?
  - phito 2y ago
    I already get those benefits from focused pre-coding discussions and pull request reviews. They allow for high-quality decisions, involve more perspectives, and are asynchronous. Pair programming might help when training juniors, since they need that level of hand-holding. But for experienced devs, constant back-and-forth while typing mostly just adds friction.

readthenotes1 2y ago

Couldn't see anything but the menu

taberiand 2y ago
I had to switch to reader mode. You're not missing much
fnordian_slip 2y ago
Same here, but if this is because of Firefox mobile, then reader mode is the answer, at least it was for me.

lemming 2y ago

An online application of this principle is Focusmate, where you schedule calls with essentially random strangers and just work together. There's very little chit chat and it's not some weird front for a hookup scheme. I've been amazed at how well it works for me. I can't really explain why, after all the other person can't see my screen so I could just be doom scrolling YouTube the whole time, but for some reason I don't. I don't use it all the time, but when I need to get something unappealing done I still use it. I've also used it for exercise, and I've had partners use it for all sorts of weird things that they had been procrastinating. I highly recommend it, I thought it would be far weirder than it turned out to be, and it's really useful.

senordevnyc 2y ago
I could have written this. I have ADHD and I've done 500+ FocusMate sessions in the last year. I've found it sticky and helpful like nothing else I've ever tried, and I can't even explain why. It just feels like some kind of brain hack.
- Aerbil313 2y ago
  There was a recent discussion about body doubling on HN. One of the theories is that prior to modernity, people mostly worked together and that’s how we are wired. Doubly so for us ADHD people, who would tend to partake in hunting, war or such activities.
ravetcofx 2y ago
There are free discord groups for this too
- jaboutboul 2y ago
  Care to share some, friend?
- stephantul 2y ago
  Very curious about this

BrianHenryIE 2y ago

Yep, my sister makes fun of me that her mere presence makes me more productive. (when I shared an apartment with her in my early thirties) she'd sit in my room just chatting to me and I would tidy and clean without her doing anything, whereas I'd been meaning to do that for months. I suggested the idea of a responsiblabuddy website today to my wife – if we're both in the same town I'd commit to coming to your house on Saturday and you'd commit to coming to mine on Sunday and I'd finally tidy my shed / weld those batteries / list those items on fb marketplace etc. Then I realised I'd need a responsabilabuddy to get me to start and finish the website! There was a guy running a co-working space in Dublin (Ireland) who would open it up on the occasional Sunday for "Sideproject Sundays" which I found great for focus. Edit: there are no search results for "responsiblabuddy", I know I didn't come up with that term

MasterBel2 2y ago
try “responsibilibuddy” :)
fsiefken 2y ago
the term 'accountability partner' is used

mrmincent 2y ago

I wfh pretty much 100%, and have inattentive adhd. I’ll occasionally go spend a day at a WeWork, either with other workmates, or by myself. On days that I’m with workmates, I get nothing done. On days I’m by myself, sitting by strangers, I’m really productive. I can just lock in and chug through my work. It never made sense to me until I learned about body-doubling, kind of feels like what I was inadvertently doing on those solo days.

AbstractH24 2y ago
I have a similar phenomenon - I wfh and if my wife is home while I try to work I find it more difficult to get in the zone than if I’m home alone. But if I go to a coworking space with others around I find it easier. Last week I finally rented a small private office. The difficulty finding coworking spaces that offered external monitors, 24/7 access, and direct sunlight in a part of NYC that was convenient led me to just get the private office. Renting was a no brainer after I tried it for a day. The little room outside home for me just to work felt shockingly great. But now I wonder if in time I’ll regret not going with a dedicated shared desk where I’m around others.

paulmooreparks 2y ago

Wow... I start reading the article, and just as I'm thinking, "This site might be helpful for finding tips on how to foc..." ...A popup slides into view in the lower right-hand corner. That's when I closed the tab. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jagged-chisel 2y ago
I think you dropped this: \

rpgwaiter 2y ago

I’m sure this works for some people. Personally I loathe social interaction of any kind, and mixing that with engineering gets me to my mental/emotional limits much faster. On my own I can work about 2 hours on and 10 mins off, sometimes for 10+ hours total. If I have a 2 hour collab coding call, that’s about all I’ll do that’s productive that day. I’l literally have to spend the rest of that day mentally recovering from the stress of the call.

jfrbfbreudh 2y ago
Same here. I started an in-office job recently as the company’s highest ranking engineer and my productivity has plummeted vs WFH. I found myself having to allocate mental bandwidth to my environment to allow for the possibility of being interrupted by others, so I ended up both less productive and more tired.
- dlivingston 2y ago
  Are you in an open office? I found that to be extremely fatiguing relative to a private office, a shared office, or even a cubicle.
- criddell 2y ago
  What you see as an interruption is somebody else clearing their path. It could be that your personal productivity drop is resulting in a productivity gain for the group.
lurkshark 2y ago
Whenever I read about pair programming as a standard technique (like XP) it sounds so great in theory but in practice I find it extremely draining whenever I’ve dabbled.
- pydry 2y ago
  If you have psychological safety and develop a bond of trust with the person it is far less draining. Those things need to be developed and the working environment needs to make them possible, though. I find that the fact that I rarely get stuck for long and the mistakes I make tend to get caught more quickly makes pairing vastly more productive in practice. The productivity isnt directly in the speed of code output but the compounded effect over time of it being higher quality - meaning vastly less time doing post hoc debugging, bugfixing, reworking code, etc. It is invisible over the space of one or two tickets, visible over weeks and overwhelming over months. At one company my pairing team routinely (and quietly) worked 9-3:30pm or 4pm while the surrounding nonpairing teams worked overtime and still delivered way less. If you can nail it it really is almost unreasonably effective.

whatever1 2y ago

I just want to get to work from 10pm to 4am. Just me my music and the night highway / city /nature sounds. Anything is possible in that timeframe. Too bad this is incompatible with the society. So we got to pay the context switching tax.

47282847 2y ago
The last time I had a sort-of externally imposed schedule was at school. At university, attendance wasn’t required, nobody cared as long as I passed the tests. Since then, which is over 20 years ago, I have exclusively worked jobs that are WFH, with teams on various time zones and frequent travel (for others, not me), so everybody is used to scheduling calls via doodle etc.

OhioMan2943 2y ago

I have a family member who does this. But I think it's more because they've fallen down an internet rabbit hole which has basically removed all personal autonomy. They just do it because everyone else is doing it. It's just called working with someone else.

neilv 2y ago

> What would chi have to do with a body double? The body double might be a chi balancer or protective barrier helping to contain and calm the energy in and around the person with ADHD. Does the writer believe that, or are they pandering?

47282847 2y ago
In modern terms, it is nervous system co-regulation, and, yes, that’s a thing. Many people with ADHD also suffer from complex PTSD (see comorbidity studies), and unless treated, this has effects like social anxiety and emotional dysregulation. Emotional neglect in early childhood for example can be a ‘silent‘, non-obvious factor at play here (even caring parents can be emotionally unavailable for longer periods of time due to environmental or personal reasons!), which for the later adult means they have not (yet) learned the skill to regulate their nervous system on their own and can make use of a replacement ‘caretaker‘.

wormius 2y ago

My roommate comes in and talks, and while they're doing that I automatically start cleaning my room. I am a slob otherwise. But something about that, it gives me a chance to be away from "online" while also giving me a sort of mental "space"/distraction so I'm not focused/anxious/worried and seems to help me reduce my "executive dysfunction". I also have a tendency to place self-demands and so it makes me doing things I want to do (not like cleaning room but projects) more difficulty because I feel the pressure to do it, so I resist. Having someone in the room helps me relax that self-demand. I don't "should" I just "do". I used to do a lot more socially and my computer was in the living room with the roomie, but I'm just in my room most of the time, and this is making me think - maybe I should go back to the living room with my computer (since she's out there too most days), maybe that will help me be more productive in programming/projects, etc...

deinonychus 2y ago
>My roommate comes in and talks, and while they're doing that I automatically start cleaning my room. The moment a guest enters my apartment, my body immediately begins cleaning my kitchen and putting away dishes and cleaning up messes or tidying my living room. I never thought of this in the body doubling context, but as a self-soothing thing for social pressure. Or maybe genuine guilt for the state of my apartment. It gives me something to do instead of just standing around maintaining eye contact (and the second effect of making the place nicer to exist in, for me and my guest). Kind of reminds me of another social self-soothing thing, where if I'm not entirely comfortable with a guest (a newer friends or romantic partner) I subconsciously place something in between us, like standing on opposite sides of the kitchen island. >Having someone in the room helps me relax that self-demand. I don't "should" I just "do". I feel this in my bones. I've been living alone for a few years and I'm actually going to move in with a roommate soon to see if it can keep me "online" more often without draining me. I totally think it's a good idea to try hang or work in the living room with your laptop.

onemoresoop 2y ago

I may have ADHD, I never went for a diagnosis and found body doubling useful at times, especially when I was in school some decades ago, back then I had no name for it. However, I find white noise very helpful with staying on the task and with increased focus. My company moved, about a year ago, into a very cramped office that is also extremely noisy. This exasperated me, I would get drained of energy in a couple of hours and my focus was being severy affected. I even considered quitting and looking for something else. As a last resort I started listening to white noise. I’ve been using white noise (white+brown+pink) for about a year now and find that it helps not only with cancelling out the noise but with focus and staying on task in general. I even use it at home at times. I know this may not be useful for everybody but I’m sure it could help out some of you. I use https://noises.online/ https://noises.online/ and mix all the types of white noise at the same time for maximim coverage but any type of white noise generator would do. To me it feels like being close to a waterfall. At first my ears hurt a bit after a few hours of white noise but got used to it after a while.

felipeerias 2y ago
White noise and similar soundscapes (rain, water…) help me focus much better than pure silence. Perhaps a predictable sound that drowns all others allows my brain to “shut down” the little part of it that is on edge waiting for noises and distractions.
steve_adams_86 2y ago
There’s an app/service called Endel which makes music I find helpful for focus too. My family finds it eerily void and dead, like it’s technically music but lacks any soul. I don’t mind; I don’t listen to it for entertainment. It’s like the white noise. I also like the white/brown/pink noise a lot. I think sometimes I crave a bit more texture and feature in the noise and so I’ll pull up endel, but I get by really well without it a lot of the time too.
sixpackpg 2y ago
I feel the same about being drained with noises. I use white noise too. But make sure to only use white noise when I want to focus, as it feels like I've conditioned myself to be focused when it's on. Previously, I had it permanently on and I found the effectiveness dropped

growingkittens 2y ago

Body doubles work especially well for tasks that involve changing visual context and sequencing. As a child, I noticed that my brain worked differently when someone was in my room. I begged my mom to stay in my room so I could clean my room, but she didn't understand what the point was.

esaym 2y ago

Wish I could read it. The menu stays open on Firefox even if you hit the X. https://imgur.com/a/T6tY7dc https://imgur.com/a/T6tY7dc

janwillemb 2y ago
I could read it using the reader view
- riedel 2y ago
  Sometimes it needs those constructive comments. Thanks, this worked for me.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
UncleSlacky 2y ago
I blocked the menu using Ublock Origin.

Xiol32 2y ago

This article is clearly written to the word count and not the overall content. A painful read.

bcoughlan 2y ago
I'm nearly certain that the images and the text are AI generated from other sources and perhaps tweaked a bit. The headings are the giveaway. Low signal-to-noise ratio. Google search results is full of this stuff, but first time seeing it at the top of HN
- ascorbic 2y ago
  The article says it was originally written in 1996. It's on the site of the Attention Deficit Disorders Association. The images are generic stock photography.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    If the URL claiming uploaded in 2015 can be believed (i.e. in the time before the Internet was 95% sewage), this could be that original article: https://www.gettingclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Body-Double-.pdf https://www.gettingclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Body... It's much more fucking concise than the drivel of the republished stuff.

ErigmolCt 2y ago

I love how something so low-tech like just sitting next to someone can short-circuit the ADHD chaos spiral. Like, no fancy app, no productivity hack, just a warm body in a chair nearby. It's kind of beautiful.

snvzz 2y ago

Website overrides browser scroll behavior, forcing laggy (i.e. animated) scroll. As such, it's extremely irritating. Archive version[0] does not have such problem. 0. https://archive.is/r5SZc https://archive.is/r5SZc

snvzz 2y ago

Requiring another person is a major issue. I wonder if a plushie can act as substitute. Keep it on the corner of the desk when on task. Maybe have different plushies for different tasks.

tofflos 2y ago

What's unique about this? This is basically what every parent and teacher already does.

janwillemb 2y ago
True, but this is about adults in a professional context.

ulrischa 2y ago

This is why childs in Germany get a Schulbegleiter. A person that just goes with the child to school

tom89999 2y ago
Ich muss mich aber fragen warum dies nötig wurde. Niemand an meiner Schule hatte eine Allergie, Erkrankung dieser Art oder irgendwas. Was ist seit den 1980ern passiert? Sind es Umweltgifte? Farb- und Aromastoffe? Zuviel Süsses? Ich kann es mir kaum vorstellen dass das menschliche Erbgut so kaputt gegangen ist. Wir haben eine exzellente medizinische Versorgung und Forschung und Entwicklung gehabt. Mein Frau lehrt an einer Waldorf-Schule. Die Kinder leiden wirklich keinen Hunger und Not. Leider aber werden viele Kinder gekündigt da sie verhaltensauffällig und somit unbeschulbar sind. Es kann doch nicht sein, ich würde es verstehen wenn die pure Armut oder Gewalt in der Familie die Kinder kaputtmacht. Sind es die Smartphones?
- heeen2 2y ago
  An einer Waldorfschule hast Du selection bias

Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago

This is where remote work goes off the rails, but then it’s wild how intentionally isolating the implementation of RTO that many large corporations are doing now. They line people up in rows, put headphones on their heads and wire them up to Teams and Jira to spend the whole day in isolation. Because taking a walk to another floor of building to talk to someone like a normal human being is too wasteful, but somehow forcing everyone to spend hours commuting isn’t. It’s the worst of both worlds.

lionkor 2y ago
That sounds awful. I go to the office to chat with everyone, it's incredible how much work gets done when you can just walk over to someone and debug or rubbery ducky in real time.
- Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
  Yes. I got fired from that place for being too negative and now work somewhere much more sane. The CEO to his credit went on a campaign to improve the culture, but middle management obstinately refused to change a single thing. I recently heard he got fired by the board too, go figure.
  - stitched2gethr 2y ago
    Remote work did a number on middle management. When many of them realized that if they aren't the strategic brain at the top, and they aren't individual contributers, and they can supervise butts in chais, then they aren't actually providing that much value.
    - firoso 2y ago
      So adapt. Learn to curate your team and their work. Lead by helping people organize, getting obstacles out of their way, shielding them from alarmist BS from higher management, and stop worrying about butts in seats. Focus on agreements, goals, commitments, accountability, growth, and coaching. It's not that hard.

daenney 2y ago

> While there’s no research to prove its effectiveness [..] > Originally published in 1996, this article was republished on February 20th, 2025.

coldblues 2y ago

Focusmate is probably the most popular tool in this category. I don't like the other ones, I am more comfortable in a 1-1 video session rather than multiple people. It works really well when I want to force myself to get something done. For the most comprehensive and effective solution, medication is still the go-to. Disregard any stigma and misguided fears around it and just get medicated.

lifeisstillgood 2y ago

Wow - I actually do this - did not know it had a name but pairing up with someone actually makes it easier (although loads of coders I know dislike working with others - so pair programming is an attempt to do this technique without knowing who has adhd or not?

robin_reala 2y ago

There are a bunch of “study with me” videos on YouTube that aim to do a similar thing, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex_bNIFR1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex_bNIFR1A

Nevermark 2y ago
Where does specialization end? Personally, I would like to vicariously YouTube double with a “friend” on our private jet. For about four hours, then another hour looking out the window, listening to said friend continuing to work, while I enjoy a well earned inflight (I.e. home made) cocktail before we land on a tropical island. Someone would like to host videos like that for a living.

suzzer99 2y ago

I don't necessarily need someone there all the time. But talking it out really helps when I need get over that hump and get going on some annoying problem. I've also found it helps sometimes to have the TV on in the other room, on some mindless sports pundit show that I can half-listen to. When I have some task I don't want to do, especially if it's something no one is expecting me to do right away but I still need to get it done, I go to Starbucks and don't leave until it's finished.

bgnn 2y ago

This site (add.org) doesn't function on Firefox mobile.

_whiteCaps_ 2y ago
I had to click Reader Mode to see it

INTPenis 2y ago

This is super interesting. I can only speak anecdotally but my older brother has ADD and he has already spent 4-5 weeks writing a powershell script to automate a trivial task at work. But whenever I visit he makes huge breakthroughs and I notice that he really wants me to come visit, and he asks me more and more questions on IM and shares his thoughts and progress. He has a hard time coming out and saying what he feels but I'm observing that he works better with me present. What's funny though is that I'm the absolute opposite. When someone is present and only slightly focused on what I'm doing, I act as if I have ADD.

asar 2y ago

Really interesting method. I've been calling a similar strategy the library effect. Whenever I work in an environment where other people are productive (or at least look productive) I can focus much better and get in the zone. It's now gotten to a point where I'm actively seeking desks with my screen exposed to the room, so people would be able to see me procrastinate, guilt tripping me to limit this sort of behavior.

deadbabe 2y ago
This used to work for me, but not anymore. The less I care about what other people think the more I don’t care about procrastinating even when they’re right next to me.
AbstractH24 2y ago
> Really interesting method. I've been calling a similar strategy the library effect As libraries reinvent themselves for an era where all the world’s knowledge is available on my cell phone, I wish more emphasis was placed on meeting booths. Because then I’d work from them all day and never consider coworking spaces.
deinonychus 2y ago
> It's now gotten to a point where I'm actively seeking desks with my screen exposed to the room, so people would be able to see me procrastinate, guilt tripping me to limit this sort of behavior. I have this same brain. Working in public at a coffee shop is a great baseline, but it's even better if I can feel the social pressure to not fuck off even if it's made up by my own neurotic head. It's a crazy double-edged sword to wield. Really useful, but I think it heightens burnout and I can't stand to stay in the same place for long due to the palpable buildup of pressure to Go Home.

jamesbfb 2y ago

In my 40s and I’ve recently been diagnosed with inattentive adhd. TFA makes a lot of sense to me given I’m one of the rare people at my company who commutes to the office every day even though we are an in-person optional workplace. Whenever I’ve had to WFH, I’ve struggled massively to gain an initial focus. Although medication has helped tremendously, I still feel much more productive in an office setting.

deepsun 2y ago

Looks related to XP (Extreme Programming), but the problem is that you get tired and stressed way too fast to reap the benefits.

bentt 2y ago

I find coworking spaces with other people around hits on thos effect. You don’t even have to be near the people, just in the same area. And on the flip side, it seems there is no remote way of getting the same feeling. Even having my business partner on Discord doesn’t really do it. He doesn’t feel like he is parallel working as much as TOO close in that case.

Tade0 2y ago

My most productive period within the last 12 months was when I rented a desk in a co-working space for the summer so that I could catch up with a friend who also went there. To me it was less his mere presence and more the ability to immediately share any thoughts that would occur to me. Also air conditioning. Same goes with chores - I would much rather have someone be in the same room while I e.g. do the dishes or cook. I also noticed that if I don't have anyone close, I start talking to myself. That sounds like a strong argument for working from the office and it is, but to me it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages. For one I could pull this off only because my commute was short thanks to it being vacation season, so traffic was way smaller than normal.

criddell 2y ago
> I could pull this off only because my commute was short The other critical factor was sharing a space with somebody who wanted to work in a similar way. If you shared that space with somebody who was significantly more or less social, the impedance mismatch could have been very negative.
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  Would be interesting to create a tool that efficiently matched people this way.

sameermanek 2y ago

So, basically schizos can cancel out their adhd?

chneu 2y ago

The podcast Science Vs just had an ADHD episode. They talk about body doubling and a bunch of other ADHD stuff. Good episode. Recommend. Be aware that most folks who think they have ADHD really don't. Just like "OCD" and "migraines", people just like to throw labels on themselves.

BOOSTERHIDROGEN 2y ago

So, this is basically what Mark is trying to do, isn't it? Building a metaverse where everyone can virtually body double.

viraptor 2y ago
That concept doesn't need metaverse. If you can body double with someone, you can do it over any communication medium.

Uptrenda 2y ago

Yeah, nothing like an open office with random interruptions, noises, and movements to improve your focus.

viraptor 2y ago
It may not work for you, but... kinda, yes. My most productive days are while waiting for the periodic car checkup at the dealer and it's effectively an open office environment. But no, an actual open office every day would not give the same result. Brains be weird.

thimkerbell 2y ago

[flagged]

keybored 2y ago

> The ADHB body double Okay. Maybe I can apply this metaphorical technique > You’re gonna need a literal body I’m out.

codesnik 2y ago

yep. it works. SOMETIMES.

parentheses 2y ago

https://www.focusmate.com/ https://www.focusmate.com/ I used this during the early pandemic and found it very useful

hbarka 2y ago

Does having a cool calm collected cat next to you count?

zoogeny 2y ago

I've been thinking about this for a while. Seeing paid services like Focusmate, Flow Club and Focus101 show the basic idea is attractive enough to make into a lifestyle sized business. But my idea was a bit more. A lot of people are leaving religions for many reasons. One of the interesting parts of religion, from my perspective, is a community of people meeting at some cadence (e.g. once per week). At that time, they all make a public commitment to some set of values. It's like a shared affirmation. This led me to wonder if this ritualistic activity is important in a psychological way that is effective outside of theistic or other dogmatic beliefs. I was thinking of a service exactly like the ones mentioned, except it would also include some kind of intention setting. The word "prayer" is a little loaded and often brings to mind asking a God for some kind of favor. And "intention" is more like a stated goal. It is interesting that in the modern world we feel comfortable stating/sharing intentions that are productivity related. But we don't share intentions that are more broadly ethical/moral in the same way that religions promoted. If anyone has examples of services that do what Focusmate/Flow Club/etc. are doing but on a broader scale, let me know.

daxfohl 2y ago

Not for my kid. Even sitting right next to her, she'll zone out and start doodling for hours unless we're on her every couple minutes.

mrgoldenbrown 2y ago

What browsers does this site support? It is broken on Firefox mobile.

jvanderbot 2y ago
Firefox mobile + read mode works

DLion 2y ago

So did they just discover pair programming? :D Also, I'm reading lots of comments that are pointing out that they don't like doing pair programming because they do it wrongly. In the past I wrote an article about it: https://domenicoluciani.com/2022/07/22/misleading-pair-programming.html https://domenicoluciani.com/2022/07/22/misleading-pair-progr..., I hope it helps to clarify some concepts behind this way of working