5 ms·

It's Unreal Just How Awful 'Real ID' Is (2020)

16 points by leotravis10 2y ago

almosthere 2y ago
I have a Real ID and this if all bogus.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  I have an "Enhanced Driver's License" from the state of NY and it is (1) a RealID and (2) gets me into Canada by land.
- ash_091 2y ago
  Could you explain which elements of the article you believe are bogus, and how your individual experience with having a Real ID informs that stance?
  - WillPostForFood 2y ago
    It is all hyperbolic BS. I have a Real ID and don't even recall the process being different. Show a birth certificate and get an ID. Not a big deal. -Real ID will make it easier for hackers and terrorists to steal our identities, and for governments and corporations to discriminate against us. -the American government is effectively creating an “internal passport” of the sort that oppressive regimes (including North Korea) use to limit their people’s freedom of movement -Real ID will abet the federal government’s already out-of-control discrimination against immigrants and their families. -Real IDs have been called “hacker bait,” since they would give criminals and others another supposedly trusted identification to penetrate. *your neighbor who can’t find her certified birth certificate can’t fly Southwest to Phoenix to watch spring training baseball.
    - xienze 2y ago
      > Show a birth certificate and get an ID. Not a big deal. It’s apparently a bit more complicated for a lot of women since they have to show all the supporting documentation for name changes. For instance, my mother is divorced and remarried, so she had to bring a birth certificate and two marriage licenses (plus name change applications) as supporting documentation showing progression of her last name from birth until present day.
      - ike2792 2y ago
        Another very common thing in the US is having to validate your dependents for employer-provided health insurance. Since most married couples use just one of the spouses' insurance for cost reasons (even if both of them have jobs that provide it), this involves submitting copies of your marriage license as well as birth certificates for all children. This has been a thing for years and I've had to do it a few times. Like getting a RealID, it's a bit of a hassle but not that big of a deal for 99% of people.
java-man 2y ago
A passport card is easier to obtain (with or without the passport book). Get that instead.
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  It isn't easier to get a passport. Same basic documents required, but passport takes longer, is more expensive, and you have to provide the photos yourself.
  - hnuser123456 2y ago
    I got my picture taken at a post office.
    - matwood 2y ago
      Or any drug store.
  - tzs 2y ago
    In my state (Washington) it is actually cheaper to get a non-Real ID driver's license plus a passport card if you take your own photo. A passport card is $65 and good for 10 years. That's $6.50/year. A Real ID driver's license driver's license in my state is $42 dollars more to renew for 6 years than a non-Real ID license. That's $7.00/year. It can also be renewed for 8 years for for $56 more than a non-Real ID license, which is again $7.00/year. In addition to being cheaper a passport card can be used both as an ID and to show citizenship. A Real ID is only an ID.
- jandrese 2y ago
  The passport is only easier if you already have a driver's license. Otherwise the requirements are just as onerous.
  - java-man 2y ago
    That's not the point. The passport card is an alternative. But your comment about the need to get the passport in the first place and it being expensive is entirely valid.
fourseventy 2y ago
[flagged]
jmclnx 2y ago
>The acts of forcing people to submit more identification and then putting that personal information in databases actually introduces new risks. That is all well and good, but with all the big breaches we have had it really does not matter. Your info is out there already if you ever applied for a loan due to that large credit agency breach(s). I forgot the name of the companies, but that alone was probably enough. Then tack on that the various Health Insurance breaches, Real ID is a non-issue at this point. Now of course we have DOGE mining Social Security Data, so here we are.
- kemayo 2y ago
  Plus, most of what Real ID does is increase the documents that you need to show to get your ID. The state generally isn't then putting all those documents online somewhere -- it's just requiring that you show them to an employee at the time of application. So in terms of what's stealable by hackers, nothing has changed. Edit: I’m wrong, the state is required to keep copies. It’s not required to keep digital copies, but that’s probably simplest and so…
  - pxeboot 2y ago
    It has been a while since I read the full text of the law, but I believe the Real ID Act requires states to store copies of all documents for 7 or 10 years.
    - kemayo 2y ago
      Hm, looks like you’re right. It doesn’t require digital copies, but does set various lengths of time that the state has to hold onto things based on whether they keep paper, microfiche, or digital.
rafram 2y ago
> And by making Real ID a requirement for travel within the country, the American government is effectively creating an “internal passport” of the sort that oppressive regimes (including North Korea) use to limit their people’s freedom of movement, and to create distinct classes of citizens. That's some serious hyperbole. A requirement to board a plane != "a requirement for travel within the country."
- arcticbull 2y ago
  Also, it's not required. You can get through a TSA checkpoint without ID, it might just take a bit longer. They'll take you aside and validate your identity. [1] [edit] > In the event you arrive at the airport without acceptable identification (whether lost, stolen, or otherwise), you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name and current address to confirm your identity. [1] https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    Doesn't that require bringing someone else who knows you to vouch for you? It's not exactly a smooth process that you'd want to regularly go through.
    - arcticbull 2y ago
      I edited to include the process as written by the TSA on their website. It's definitely going to be less fun if you don't bring ID, and they suggest you arrive early.
      - CPLX 2y ago
        It's certainly annoying but it's not all that big of a deal. Tens of thousands of people lose IDs and wallets every year and manage to get on the plane home anyways. I've seen people go through it they use common sense means to verify you.
1shooner 2y ago
I don't see any issue presented here that is exclusive to Real ID. The arguments presented here seem to logically argue against any government identification. Real ID isn't required for domestic travel, it's required for federally-regulated air travel. According to DHS, it doesn't create new databases, it's a credentialing standard. I'm not familiar with Real ID, but this article doesn't present substantive arguments against it. It comes off a bit histrionic: > And if you lose a Real ID—or it malfunctions—get ready for bureaucratic nightmares that would make Kafka blush. Newspapers will carry stories about people with Real ID problems who can’t access government offices to resolve them, because they don’t have Real ID.
- xienze 2y ago
  > Real ID isn't required for domestic travel, it's required for federally-regulated air travel. What’s the distinction here? I would think flying with any commercial airline domestically is considered “federally-regulated air travel.”
  - kemayo 2y ago
    I believe they're pointing out that flying isn't the only way to travel domestically. You can drive or take the train without needing to have a Real ID. (You can certainly quibble about relative practicality of that in a country the size of the USA.)
  - 1shooner 2y ago
    The article called Real ID a North Korea-style domestic passport. That is not what it is. There is no categorical control on domestic travel. Commercial aviation is regulated by the federal government. If you believe that no ID should be required for air travel, that is one thing, but if you accept the need for a credential to fly, of course you'd expect it to use a standard defined by the entity requiring it.
paulsutter 2y ago
Your passport is perfectly valid ID for flying. You can also get a US passport card. I used to carry one when I was in Japan. Anytime I had to show ID, the person would say "oh, diplomat!" because its looks more like a US federal ID card than a passport. But it should also work in place of a "Real ID", and is easier to carry than a full passport.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dpc_01234 2y ago
As a naturalized US citizen originally from Europe, I will never understand what's such a big deal about national ID, especially given that not having one degrades everything to some weird combination of de facto mandatory quasi-IDs, like SSN and driving licenses. It really seems irrational, irrespective of political leaning. It's funny when the Republicans, always so against the IDs, then scream so laud about voting fraud and voting ID requirements. You can't have it both ways. I believe in personal freedom and I am cautious of government overreach, etc. but the benefits of ID is just so huge, and I don't think it really changes much w.r.t. government ability to messes with you if they want to.
- ike2792 2y ago
  I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). The amount of things you can do without personally identifying yourself in some way is so small that I'm also not sure what additional power a Real ID gives to the government.
  - tzs 2y ago
    > I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We are I think also the only one that both (1) has a significant number of eligible voters who do not have a photo ID and (2) in many states the party that controls the government and sets the rules for getting ID sets those rules to try to make it hard for people who tend to vote for the other party to get ID and make it easy for those who vote for their party to get ID. > We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you).
ike2792 2y ago
My wife and I both got Real IDs this past summer. Our teenage kids have passports. They were all fairly simple to get. I don't understand what the issue is.

16 points by leotravis10 2y ago

almosthere 2y ago

I have a Real ID and this if all bogus.

PaulHoule 2y ago
I have an "Enhanced Driver's License" from the state of NY and it is (1) a RealID and (2) gets me into Canada by land.
ash_091 2y ago
Could you explain which elements of the article you believe are bogus, and how your individual experience with having a Real ID informs that stance?
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  It is all hyperbolic BS. I have a Real ID and don't even recall the process being different. Show a birth certificate and get an ID. Not a big deal. -Real ID will make it easier for hackers and terrorists to steal our identities, and for governments and corporations to discriminate against us. -the American government is effectively creating an “internal passport” of the sort that oppressive regimes (including North Korea) use to limit their people’s freedom of movement -Real ID will abet the federal government’s already out-of-control discrimination against immigrants and their families. -Real IDs have been called “hacker bait,” since they would give criminals and others another supposedly trusted identification to penetrate. *your neighbor who can’t find her certified birth certificate can’t fly Southwest to Phoenix to watch spring training baseball.
  - xienze 2y ago
    > Show a birth certificate and get an ID. Not a big deal. It’s apparently a bit more complicated for a lot of women since they have to show all the supporting documentation for name changes. For instance, my mother is divorced and remarried, so she had to bring a birth certificate and two marriage licenses (plus name change applications) as supporting documentation showing progression of her last name from birth until present day.
    - ike2792 2y ago
      Another very common thing in the US is having to validate your dependents for employer-provided health insurance. Since most married couples use just one of the spouses' insurance for cost reasons (even if both of them have jobs that provide it), this involves submitting copies of your marriage license as well as birth certificates for all children. This has been a thing for years and I've had to do it a few times. Like getting a RealID, it's a bit of a hassle but not that big of a deal for 99% of people.

java-man 2y ago

A passport card is easier to obtain (with or without the passport book). Get that instead.

WillPostForFood 2y ago
It isn't easier to get a passport. Same basic documents required, but passport takes longer, is more expensive, and you have to provide the photos yourself.
- hnuser123456 2y ago
  I got my picture taken at a post office.
  - matwood 2y ago
    Or any drug store.
- tzs 2y ago
  In my state (Washington) it is actually cheaper to get a non-Real ID driver's license plus a passport card if you take your own photo. A passport card is $65 and good for 10 years. That's $6.50/year. A Real ID driver's license driver's license in my state is $42 dollars more to renew for 6 years than a non-Real ID license. That's $7.00/year. It can also be renewed for 8 years for for $56 more than a non-Real ID license, which is again $7.00/year. In addition to being cheaper a passport card can be used both as an ID and to show citizenship. A Real ID is only an ID.
jandrese 2y ago
The passport is only easier if you already have a driver's license. Otherwise the requirements are just as onerous.
- java-man 2y ago
  That's not the point. The passport card is an alternative. But your comment about the need to get the passport in the first place and it being expensive is entirely valid.

fourseventy 2y ago

[flagged]

jmclnx 2y ago

>The acts of forcing people to submit more identification and then putting that personal information in databases actually introduces new risks. That is all well and good, but with all the big breaches we have had it really does not matter. Your info is out there already if you ever applied for a loan due to that large credit agency breach(s). I forgot the name of the companies, but that alone was probably enough. Then tack on that the various Health Insurance breaches, Real ID is a non-issue at this point. Now of course we have DOGE mining Social Security Data, so here we are.

kemayo 2y ago
Plus, most of what Real ID does is increase the documents that you need to show to get your ID. The state generally isn't then putting all those documents online somewhere -- it's just requiring that you show them to an employee at the time of application. So in terms of what's stealable by hackers, nothing has changed. Edit: I’m wrong, the state is required to keep copies. It’s not required to keep digital copies, but that’s probably simplest and so…
- pxeboot 2y ago
  It has been a while since I read the full text of the law, but I believe the Real ID Act requires states to store copies of all documents for 7 or 10 years.
  - kemayo 2y ago
    Hm, looks like you’re right. It doesn’t require digital copies, but does set various lengths of time that the state has to hold onto things based on whether they keep paper, microfiche, or digital.

rafram 2y ago

> And by making Real ID a requirement for travel within the country, the American government is effectively creating an “internal passport” of the sort that oppressive regimes (including North Korea) use to limit their people’s freedom of movement, and to create distinct classes of citizens. That's some serious hyperbole. A requirement to board a plane != "a requirement for travel within the country."

arcticbull 2y ago
Also, it's not required. You can get through a TSA checkpoint without ID, it might just take a bit longer. They'll take you aside and validate your identity. [1] [edit] > In the event you arrive at the airport without acceptable identification (whether lost, stolen, or otherwise), you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name and current address to confirm your identity. [1] https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Doesn't that require bringing someone else who knows you to vouch for you? It's not exactly a smooth process that you'd want to regularly go through.
  - arcticbull 2y ago
    I edited to include the process as written by the TSA on their website. It's definitely going to be less fun if you don't bring ID, and they suggest you arrive early.
    - CPLX 2y ago
      It's certainly annoying but it's not all that big of a deal. Tens of thousands of people lose IDs and wallets every year and manage to get on the plane home anyways. I've seen people go through it they use common sense means to verify you.

1shooner 2y ago

I don't see any issue presented here that is exclusive to Real ID. The arguments presented here seem to logically argue against any government identification. Real ID isn't required for domestic travel, it's required for federally-regulated air travel. According to DHS, it doesn't create new databases, it's a credentialing standard. I'm not familiar with Real ID, but this article doesn't present substantive arguments against it. It comes off a bit histrionic: > And if you lose a Real ID—or it malfunctions—get ready for bureaucratic nightmares that would make Kafka blush. Newspapers will carry stories about people with Real ID problems who can’t access government offices to resolve them, because they don’t have Real ID.

xienze 2y ago
> Real ID isn't required for domestic travel, it's required for federally-regulated air travel. What’s the distinction here? I would think flying with any commercial airline domestically is considered “federally-regulated air travel.”
- kemayo 2y ago
  I believe they're pointing out that flying isn't the only way to travel domestically. You can drive or take the train without needing to have a Real ID. (You can certainly quibble about relative practicality of that in a country the size of the USA.)
- 1shooner 2y ago
  The article called Real ID a North Korea-style domestic passport. That is not what it is. There is no categorical control on domestic travel. Commercial aviation is regulated by the federal government. If you believe that no ID should be required for air travel, that is one thing, but if you accept the need for a credential to fly, of course you'd expect it to use a standard defined by the entity requiring it.

paulsutter 2y ago

Your passport is perfectly valid ID for flying. You can also get a US passport card. I used to carry one when I was in Japan. Anytime I had to show ID, the person would say "oh, diplomat!" because its looks more like a US federal ID card than a passport. But it should also work in place of a "Real ID", and is easier to carry than a full passport.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dpc_01234 2y ago

As a naturalized US citizen originally from Europe, I will never understand what's such a big deal about national ID, especially given that not having one degrades everything to some weird combination of de facto mandatory quasi-IDs, like SSN and driving licenses. It really seems irrational, irrespective of political leaning. It's funny when the Republicans, always so against the IDs, then scream so laud about voting fraud and voting ID requirements. You can't have it both ways. I believe in personal freedom and I am cautious of government overreach, etc. but the benefits of ID is just so huge, and I don't think it really changes much w.r.t. government ability to messes with you if they want to.

ike2792 2y ago
I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). The amount of things you can do without personally identifying yourself in some way is so small that I'm also not sure what additional power a Real ID gives to the government.
- tzs 2y ago
  > I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We are I think also the only one that both (1) has a significant number of eligible voters who do not have a photo ID and (2) in many states the party that controls the government and sets the rules for getting ID sets those rules to try to make it hard for people who tend to vote for the other party to get ID and make it easy for those who vote for their party to get ID. > We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you).

ike2792 2y ago

My wife and I both got Real IDs this past summer. Our teenage kids have passports. They were all fairly simple to get. I don't understand what the issue is.