7 ms·

Tangential, but I recently noticed that natamycin, an antifungal agent, is being used in packages of shredded cheese as a preservative. I was a little taken ab

by xattt 2y ago

Tangential, but I recently noticed that natamycin, an antifungal agent, is being used in packages of shredded cheese as a preservative. I was a little taken aback on seeing it, given that antibiotic stewardship has been pushed so much in the last decade. I realize that natamycin is an antifungal and not an antibiotic, and that mechanisms of developing resistance are likely different between eukaryotes and prokaryotes. However, I’m still somewhat concerned what long-term low-level exposure will mean.

foxyv 2y ago
I stopped buying pre-shredded cheese a decade ago. Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Pre-shredded is just worse in every way aside from convenience. Using a cheap rotary grater like they have in restaurants makes this almost a non-issue.
- m463 2y ago
  anything shelf-stable, hydrogenated peanut butter, highly processed milk, etc I'm starting to wonder if convenience = 1/healthy hopefully not bananas though.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - tcdent 2y ago
    bananas are a socioeconomic catastrophe
  - josephg 2y ago
    My partner read a book on food recently. They made an obvious point I’d never thought of before: Food is eaten in our stomachs by bacteria. If the bacteria in our stomachs can’t (or won’t) eat something, that means it’s not digestible. That means it’s not food. If something is shelf stable, that’s because the bacteria can’t or won’t eat it. If bacteria doesn’t want to eat something, it’s not food. And you probably don’t want it in your stomach. Some things are shelf stable by physically keeping the bacteria out of it (eg canned food). That seems fine. But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products? Bacteria loves cheese. They do it with weird additives and substitutes that - by design - bacteria hates. But that also means our bodies can’t really eat it either - since we use the same bacteria in our stomach to digest things. Plenty of healthy things are convenient. Like, apples! But healthy food is rarely shelf stable. Almost by definition.
    - tabular 2y ago
      That sounds like an extremely pseudo-scientific book. For the real explanation, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
    - celeritascelery 2y ago
      I am not very well read on this topic, but it seems like there are other ways to make shelf stable food that doesn’t necessarily make it harder to digest. For example high salt or sugar contents, or removing most of the water. These make it harder for bacteria in the environment but don’t pose a barrier when mixed up in your gut. Granted, you can’t do that with shredded cheese. which is why it has to be refrigerated and will eventually go bad.
    - Xylakant 2y ago
      But that's not really true. Humans have for thousands of years tried and succeeded to make food not palatable to bacteria. Drying stuff is comparatively simple, but salting, smoking it, by either adding acid or fermenting (which makes the bacteria produce the acid that inhibits them), by adding alcohol (or again, letting the bacteria produce the alcohol), by introducing organisms that produce bactericides - namely fungi (cheese mold) that produce antibiotics. By adding sugar. Honey is shelf stable beyond your wildest dream. There's a lot of ways to get things shelf stable that use natural ingredients only and are - at least in reasonable amounts - perfectly safe to eat. Your body will do a lot of work on food before it is in the end absorbed. It adds enzymes that break up molecular bonds. It will use acid on it. You will mash it with physical energy. It will be watered down and mixed and in the end, the molecules will be absorbed by your body. That doesn't mean that you should eat just about everything, that's not true. But I believe making the connection via "bacteria won't eat that, it's not good" doesn't make a good point.
    - askvictor 2y ago
      Generally you're either killing _all_ of the bacteria the sealing the product to prevent new ones entering, or creating an environment that's too hostile for them to live (environments high in salt, sugar, acid, or fat, or low in moisture, all make achieve this) Also, our stomach is full of acid, the purpose of which is to kill bacteria. Later on, in the intestine, you have a colony of microbes. Pickled or fermented food is very healthy, and shelf stable. We've been doing that for millenia to preserve food. It's not as simple as you suggest.
- tshaddox 2y ago
  Isn't the convenient version of something always worse in every way aside from convenience than the less convenient version of the same thing?
  - twojacobtwo 2y ago
    Definitely not "always" and "in every way". Random example. I buy a meal made by a professional chef and have it delivered. It's more convenient and it's a much better meal than I could make. It's more expensive, sure, but that's not 'in every way'
    - djtango 2y ago
      But within the same example its not as good as if you ate the exact same meal freshly served - things won't be as hot and certain textures will be lost in delivery (eg crispy things going soggy) You mentioned a chef which is less specific but I generally consider restaurant food less healthy than what I'd cook for myself due to differing incentives which is another dimension for convenience
      - twojacobtwo 2y ago
        Indeed, but that's a different choice than the original. If leaving my house isn't an option for me, the subsequent options entailed are then off the table, so to speak. The OP said "always" and "in every way", and I was pointing out that there are many exceptions, depending on many factors.
    - lynx97 2y ago
      That example actually underlines parents point. Because, yes, delivered food is convenient. However, at least in my experience, delivered food from a professional chef is always inferior to what I'd get if I actually visited the same restaurant. Yes, packaging has improved and fried stuff isn't as gross at it used to be, but it is still not the same level of quality compared to actually going there.
      - 2y ago
- Animats 2y ago
  > Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Is this a promotion for the National Cheese Stockpile?[1] The US has about 1.5 billion pounds of cheese in storage in a cave in Missouri. Really. There's a USDA welfare program for dairy farmers, and they have to put the excess milk somewhere. So it's made into cheese and stored. [1] https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/ https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/
  - xp84 2y ago
    Funny, the same US that is in a stupid trade war where dairy is one of the disputed areas, is doing absurd subsidies of dairy. What an incongruous set of policies.
  - foxyv 2y ago
    You can't really buy "Government Cheese." It used to be given out as part of food assistance programs in the US. I guess it was pretty okay cheese too. I think it's mostly given out as food assistance to other countries now since we moved over to SNAP debit cards.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hart_russell 2y ago
"True, fungi cannot survive if its host's internal temperature is over 94 degrees," says Neuman. "Currently, there are no reasons for fungi to evolve to withstand higher temperatures. But what if that were to change? What if, for instance, the world were to get slightly warmer? Now there is reason to evolve."
- ronyeh 2y ago
  Thanks for reminding me to rewatch it before the new season comes out (soon).
  - mmastrac 2y ago
    When you're re-watching the first episode of the first season, look out for the bearded guy in the map room with Merle Dandridge that's upset because everyone died, that's me. :) I got a call to be an extra and figured what the heck, was totally worth it. Got to very briefly meet Craig Mazin too.
    - ronyeh 2y ago
      Congrats! I love that the producers worked so closely with the game’s creators. It really shows.
- fhdkweig 2y ago
  Fungi can grow inside the body. A man who was used to injecting heroin decided to try magic mushrooms. So, he expected the high to be better if he injected them too. https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-report.html https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-re... https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-they-grow-in-his-blood/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-...
- robocat 2y ago
  Google. "systemic mycoses" or "mycosis internal organs". It isn't just the {lungs, skin, mouth, throat, urinary tract} that can grow molds or yeasts. A few related medical words: Cryptococcal meningitis, Mucormycosis, Blastomycosis, Histoplasmosis. Hopefully your brain is warmer than 34°C - perhaps avoid trusting zombie HBO shows for medical knowledge. I'm guessing they were riffing on the zombie-ant fungus: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis
cmrdporcupine 2y ago
Now you have me wondering if natamycin could be useful as an anti-fungal pesticide in my vineyard/orchard :-)
- throwway120385 2y ago
  It might not be good for the fungi in the tree roots.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    Very intense fungicides are sprayed all over these places already. Though most of them break down in sunlight and rain after a couple days.
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      Whiskey fungus apparently doesn’t.
0_____0 2y ago
Tangent on tangent - in addition to the antifungal there is also anticaking agent (nothing crazy, often some type of flour) that noticeably changes the mouthfeel of cheeses that come pre-shredded. If you notice a grainy texture in your food, try grating it off a brick instead!
- xattt 2y ago
  I have been shredding my own for a while, since it's typically cheaper. It just happened to be that I was feeling lazy one particular day and bags of shredded cheese were on sale.
  - oangemangut 2y ago
    We always have blocks of hard cheese and cheddars in the fridge and I feel fine cutting off any moldy bits. With the shredded stuff, I'll forget about it and we end up binning lots since its impossible to tease out the bad from the good.
- kadoban 2y ago
  Yeah, especially for things like cheese sauces I find that it's better to just grate it yourself. It will _not_ melt correctly otherwise, and the additives mess with sauces more than you'd think.
  - silisili 2y ago
    Agreed. I went down this rabbit hole last year, going as far as even buying sodium citrate that's supposed to help it melt together, with mixed results and awful taste. Never came close to anything resembling a well melted, good tasting sauce.
    - goosejuice 2y ago
      I wouldn't do this in a restaurant but a quick cheese sauce for something like nachos. Just pop some shredded cheese in the microwave with some heavy cream or half and half. Adjust to taste / texture. Stir well. Mornay, citrate, and evaporated milk approaches work but I'm lazy so I just do the cream approach for "queso".
CGMthrowaway 2y ago
Natamycin was discovered in 1955 has been widely used as a food preservative ever since. Especially cheese and bread, but also fruit, meat and peanuts. Typically adds between 1 week and 1 month of shelf life to products in the typical doses
- GloamingNiblets 2y ago
  Given our developing understanding of the importance of the human microbiome, which includes fungi (the mycobiome), I steer clear of anti fungal preservatives in my food personally. Just because something has been used since 1955 doesn't mean it's all good.
almosthere 2y ago
If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now.
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now. You're quite correct. Thankfully, my local has me covered with that![0][1] The stuff without preservatives definitely doesn't last as long, but the difference in taste/texture makes all the difference. [0] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892 https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892 [1] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151 https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151 Edit: Fixed link formatting.
hettygreen 2y ago
All the more reason to Make America Grate Again.. I'm here all night folks.
- foxyv 2y ago
  Cheesy jokes on Hacker News? I approve.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
Antifungal resistance is actually a thing. Fungi can evolve or acquire resistance mechanisms against antifungals, just like bacteria and antibiotics. Arguably it's an even bigger problem than antibiotic resistance: fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, and in practice this means we have less chemical weapons to fight them with. Losing the relatively small arsenal we have would be quite bothersome to say the least. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/

by xattt 2y ago

foxyv 2y ago

I stopped buying pre-shredded cheese a decade ago. Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Pre-shredded is just worse in every way aside from convenience. Using a cheap rotary grater like they have in restaurants makes this almost a non-issue.

m463 2y ago
anything shelf-stable, hydrogenated peanut butter, highly processed milk, etc I'm starting to wonder if convenience = 1/healthy hopefully not bananas though.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tcdent 2y ago
  bananas are a socioeconomic catastrophe
- josephg 2y ago
  My partner read a book on food recently. They made an obvious point I’d never thought of before: Food is eaten in our stomachs by bacteria. If the bacteria in our stomachs can’t (or won’t) eat something, that means it’s not digestible. That means it’s not food. If something is shelf stable, that’s because the bacteria can’t or won’t eat it. If bacteria doesn’t want to eat something, it’s not food. And you probably don’t want it in your stomach. Some things are shelf stable by physically keeping the bacteria out of it (eg canned food). That seems fine. But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products? Bacteria loves cheese. They do it with weird additives and substitutes that - by design - bacteria hates. But that also means our bodies can’t really eat it either - since we use the same bacteria in our stomach to digest things. Plenty of healthy things are convenient. Like, apples! But healthy food is rarely shelf stable. Almost by definition.
  - tabular 2y ago
    That sounds like an extremely pseudo-scientific book. For the real explanation, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
  - celeritascelery 2y ago
    I am not very well read on this topic, but it seems like there are other ways to make shelf stable food that doesn’t necessarily make it harder to digest. For example high salt or sugar contents, or removing most of the water. These make it harder for bacteria in the environment but don’t pose a barrier when mixed up in your gut. Granted, you can’t do that with shredded cheese. which is why it has to be refrigerated and will eventually go bad.
  - Xylakant 2y ago
    But that's not really true. Humans have for thousands of years tried and succeeded to make food not palatable to bacteria. Drying stuff is comparatively simple, but salting, smoking it, by either adding acid or fermenting (which makes the bacteria produce the acid that inhibits them), by adding alcohol (or again, letting the bacteria produce the alcohol), by introducing organisms that produce bactericides - namely fungi (cheese mold) that produce antibiotics. By adding sugar. Honey is shelf stable beyond your wildest dream. There's a lot of ways to get things shelf stable that use natural ingredients only and are - at least in reasonable amounts - perfectly safe to eat. Your body will do a lot of work on food before it is in the end absorbed. It adds enzymes that break up molecular bonds. It will use acid on it. You will mash it with physical energy. It will be watered down and mixed and in the end, the molecules will be absorbed by your body. That doesn't mean that you should eat just about everything, that's not true. But I believe making the connection via "bacteria won't eat that, it's not good" doesn't make a good point.
  - askvictor 2y ago
    Generally you're either killing _all_ of the bacteria the sealing the product to prevent new ones entering, or creating an environment that's too hostile for them to live (environments high in salt, sugar, acid, or fat, or low in moisture, all make achieve this) Also, our stomach is full of acid, the purpose of which is to kill bacteria. Later on, in the intestine, you have a colony of microbes. Pickled or fermented food is very healthy, and shelf stable. We've been doing that for millenia to preserve food. It's not as simple as you suggest.
tshaddox 2y ago
Isn't the convenient version of something always worse in every way aside from convenience than the less convenient version of the same thing?
- twojacobtwo 2y ago
  Definitely not "always" and "in every way". Random example. I buy a meal made by a professional chef and have it delivered. It's more convenient and it's a much better meal than I could make. It's more expensive, sure, but that's not 'in every way'
  - djtango 2y ago
    But within the same example its not as good as if you ate the exact same meal freshly served - things won't be as hot and certain textures will be lost in delivery (eg crispy things going soggy) You mentioned a chef which is less specific but I generally consider restaurant food less healthy than what I'd cook for myself due to differing incentives which is another dimension for convenience
    - twojacobtwo 2y ago
      Indeed, but that's a different choice than the original. If leaving my house isn't an option for me, the subsequent options entailed are then off the table, so to speak. The OP said "always" and "in every way", and I was pointing out that there are many exceptions, depending on many factors.
  - lynx97 2y ago
    That example actually underlines parents point. Because, yes, delivered food is convenient. However, at least in my experience, delivered food from a professional chef is always inferior to what I'd get if I actually visited the same restaurant. Yes, packaging has improved and fried stuff isn't as gross at it used to be, but it is still not the same level of quality compared to actually going there.
    - 2y ago
Animats 2y ago
> Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Is this a promotion for the National Cheese Stockpile?[1] The US has about 1.5 billion pounds of cheese in storage in a cave in Missouri. Really. There's a USDA welfare program for dairy farmers, and they have to put the excess milk somewhere. So it's made into cheese and stored. [1] https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/ https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/
- xp84 2y ago
  Funny, the same US that is in a stupid trade war where dairy is one of the disputed areas, is doing absurd subsidies of dairy. What an incongruous set of policies.
- foxyv 2y ago
  You can't really buy "Government Cheese." It used to be given out as part of food assistance programs in the US. I guess it was pretty okay cheese too. I think it's mostly given out as food assistance to other countries now since we moved over to SNAP debit cards.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hart_russell 2y ago

"True, fungi cannot survive if its host's internal temperature is over 94 degrees," says Neuman. "Currently, there are no reasons for fungi to evolve to withstand higher temperatures. But what if that were to change? What if, for instance, the world were to get slightly warmer? Now there is reason to evolve."

ronyeh 2y ago
Thanks for reminding me to rewatch it before the new season comes out (soon).
- mmastrac 2y ago
  When you're re-watching the first episode of the first season, look out for the bearded guy in the map room with Merle Dandridge that's upset because everyone died, that's me. :) I got a call to be an extra and figured what the heck, was totally worth it. Got to very briefly meet Craig Mazin too.
  - ronyeh 2y ago
    Congrats! I love that the producers worked so closely with the game’s creators. It really shows.
fhdkweig 2y ago
Fungi can grow inside the body. A man who was used to injecting heroin decided to try magic mushrooms. So, he expected the high to be better if he injected them too. https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-report.html https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-re... https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-they-grow-in-his-blood/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-...
robocat 2y ago
Google. "systemic mycoses" or "mycosis internal organs". It isn't just the {lungs, skin, mouth, throat, urinary tract} that can grow molds or yeasts. A few related medical words: Cryptococcal meningitis, Mucormycosis, Blastomycosis, Histoplasmosis. Hopefully your brain is warmer than 34°C - perhaps avoid trusting zombie HBO shows for medical knowledge. I'm guessing they were riffing on the zombie-ant fungus: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis

cmrdporcupine 2y ago

Now you have me wondering if natamycin could be useful as an anti-fungal pesticide in my vineyard/orchard :-)

throwway120385 2y ago
It might not be good for the fungi in the tree roots.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Very intense fungicides are sprayed all over these places already. Though most of them break down in sunlight and rain after a couple days.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    Whiskey fungus apparently doesn’t.

0_____0 2y ago

Tangent on tangent - in addition to the antifungal there is also anticaking agent (nothing crazy, often some type of flour) that noticeably changes the mouthfeel of cheeses that come pre-shredded. If you notice a grainy texture in your food, try grating it off a brick instead!

xattt 2y ago
I have been shredding my own for a while, since it's typically cheaper. It just happened to be that I was feeling lazy one particular day and bags of shredded cheese were on sale.
- oangemangut 2y ago
  We always have blocks of hard cheese and cheddars in the fridge and I feel fine cutting off any moldy bits. With the shredded stuff, I'll forget about it and we end up binning lots since its impossible to tease out the bad from the good.
kadoban 2y ago
Yeah, especially for things like cheese sauces I find that it's better to just grate it yourself. It will _not_ melt correctly otherwise, and the additives mess with sauces more than you'd think.
- silisili 2y ago
  Agreed. I went down this rabbit hole last year, going as far as even buying sodium citrate that's supposed to help it melt together, with mixed results and awful taste. Never came close to anything resembling a well melted, good tasting sauce.
  - goosejuice 2y ago
    I wouldn't do this in a restaurant but a quick cheese sauce for something like nachos. Just pop some shredded cheese in the microwave with some heavy cream or half and half. Adjust to taste / texture. Stir well. Mornay, citrate, and evaporated milk approaches work but I'm lazy so I just do the cream approach for "queso".

CGMthrowaway 2y ago

Natamycin was discovered in 1955 has been widely used as a food preservative ever since. Especially cheese and bread, but also fruit, meat and peanuts. Typically adds between 1 week and 1 month of shelf life to products in the typical doses

GloamingNiblets 2y ago
Given our developing understanding of the importance of the human microbiome, which includes fungi (the mycobiome), I steer clear of anti fungal preservatives in my food personally. Just because something has been used since 1955 doesn't mean it's all good.

almosthere 2y ago

If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now.

nobody9999 2y ago
>If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now. You're quite correct. Thankfully, my local has me covered with that![0][1] The stuff without preservatives definitely doesn't last as long, but the difference in taste/texture makes all the difference. [0] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892 https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892 [1] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151 https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151 Edit: Fixed link formatting.

hettygreen 2y ago

All the more reason to Make America Grate Again.. I'm here all night folks.

foxyv 2y ago
Cheesy jokes on Hacker News? I approve.

matheusmoreira 2y ago

Antifungal resistance is actually a thing. Fungi can evolve or acquire resistance mechanisms against antifungals, just like bacteria and antibiotics. Arguably it's an even bigger problem than antibiotic resistance: fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, and in practice this means we have less chemical weapons to fight them with. Losing the relatively small arsenal we have would be quite bothersome to say the least. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/