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I'm still scratching my head at how some people are surprised by this overreaction. It seems a lot of people think the current fawning over authoritarianism cam

I'm still scratching my head at how some people are surprised by this overreaction. It seems a lot of people think the current fawning over authoritarianism came out of a vacuum. All of the sudden a majority of America came out of stasis and flocked to the polls to elect a dictator.

dclowd9901 2y ago
Well, if you look at it from the perspective of faithless reporting like that from Fox News and Newsmax, the information pipeline has been selling a narrative that the left has been on an authoritarian tear since Obama. The newscasts are chilling: every one of them for more than two decades has taken a position that the left is an existential threat to the United States. With that kind of context, it's really no wonder there's support from the right for an authoritarian leader. They honestly just think they're playing the democrats game and playing it better. It _is_ a bit odd there's a complete lack of reflection on some of these moves though, but I suppose so long as the current executive branch veers away from changing the second amendment and manages to carve out enough exceptions for their most ardent supporters, all's good from their standpoint.
- sepositus 2y ago
  A lot of people don't like being told to what say/think/do. It turns out if you bully those people enough they elect a dictator. It wasn't and still isn't a surprise to me.
  - clipsy 2y ago
    Perhaps we made the mistake of thinking that the people who "don't like being told to what[sic] say/think/do" actually had something resembling principles rather than a petty and childish desire to dictate what others are allowed to say/think/do.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - Hojojo 2y ago
    And yet they're being told to say/think/do every single day by Trump, Fox News, and the rest of conservative or alt right media, including people like Alex Jones and Joe Rogan. They love being told what to think.
    - tstrimple 2y ago
      You can literally watch this stuff real time on the internet now. Trump does something awful. Conservatives online are confused and start asking questions. Talking points from Fox News come out and basically every single conservative online is parroting the party talking points handed down to them. No more confusion.
      - Hojojo 2y ago
        I always wonder what that must be like. There is no authority I trust and believe as much as they do Fox News or Trump. There's no simple answer, no easy solution. Trying to figure out what actually happened can take days, weeks, even years. And even then, it might remain unclear and there's often no certainty to be had. But for them, the answer, the cause, whatever, is there for them the very next evening. In bite-sized nuggets they can repeat without thinking.
      - Timon3 2y ago
        Thank you for pointing this pattern out. I've seen it time and time again, most prominently after Jan 6. I think a big part is the manipulation of online spaces, e.g. the subreddits - threads and comments counter the narrative are quickly deleted, and they start piling onto anyone who still disagrees, calling them RINOs and so on. It's scary just how cult-ish this pattern is.
  - NotMichaelBay 2y ago
    I think what we know about disinformation shows people don't have to actually be bullied, they just have to think they're being bullied. Disinformation is cheap and apparently yields great returns.
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - sepositus 2y ago
      I mean, this is exactly the kind of thinking that got us here. We just attribute everything to disinformation and throw our hands up as if none of this was avoidable. I'm convinced that people on the right were called Nazi's long enough that some people literally think _every_ one of them is a literal, actual Nazi. To the point where they think there's no hope in ever reaching them. I saw this coming years ago. The rhetoric on both sides was never going to end up in anything remotely resembling healthy. Both sides are too busy pointing fingers now to really want to do anything about it.
      - NotMichaelBay 2y ago
        > We just attribute everything to disinformation The full effect that disinformation has had on Americans is probably impossible to measure, but with evidence like the Mueller report, you cannot deny that it has had some tangible effect. With Russia's efforts and the outcome of the 2016 election, I would be surprised if they did not continue and even ramp up their efforts in subsequent elections.
      - smallmancontrov 2y ago
        No, the occasional hazy reflection of the constant barrage of "socialist/communist/Marxist" accusations from the right did not cause the problem and Democrats being even more limp-wristed would not have fixed it.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        > We just attribute everything to disinformation and throw our hands up as if none of this was avoidable Well yes. it was. This was avoidable, but not by those fooled with fear from lies. It came from the rational people who felt their vote didn't matter, or that fell for obvious distractions as if somehow Trump was better because their aligned candidate wasn't the perfect progressive. >Both sides are too busy pointing fingers now to really want to do anything about it. if you only focus on the radicals, it's not surprising you become radical yourself and cast aside the grand majority of moderates. That both sidesing narrative is also a trick.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    But a government is supposed to tell you what to say, think, and do. This dictatorial government is actually enforcing that you say and think what they want, unlike all the others.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Isn't the dictator telling people what to say/think/do far more than any government leader in US history?
- barfingclouds 2y ago
  The left has been authoritarian. Rewind the clock to 2018, and speak your mind freely on a college campus and at some point you’ll say something that makes you lose your job. That’s one of many examples of the left being actually authoritarian. I’m not saying two wrongs make a right and I’m not justifying the current administration. But if we look to how we got here, that’s a lot of why, if not mostly why.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    I'm amenable to hearing out this argument, but it would be rude to let you slip by with "in 2018, if you spoke your mind, you'd get fired." You and I both know that wouldn't fly in middle school debate class, even, and I don't want to cheapen our relationship by nodding along to it.
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    Calling overzealous campus progressives of 2018 authoritarian is quite silly next to the actual demonstrations of actual authoritarian behavior from the actual authorities actually happening right now.
  - hummusandsushi 2y ago
    It is astoundingly intellectually dishonest for anybody who identifies with the American right, which espouses values of personal responsibility and the rights of organizations such as companies and universities to self-govern, to imply that a direct application of these values is "authoritarian". Free speech is understood as the ability to express yourself and your beliefs without consequences from the government, it has never meant to practically anyone that it means that as a culture no individual or organization will take action against you. This is personal responsibility in action, you must be prepared to shoulder the consequences of what you say and do. People losing their jobs in universities and otherwise for expressing certain beliefs is not somehow unique to the American political left of the preceding decade, and it is strange that people have been misled into thinking that it is. Of course it is regrettable that some people may have lost their jobs engaging in good-faith reasoned expression of their beliefs, but you cannot argue that this is somehow the result of "the left". I intentionally make no judgment here on whether I believe the climate that existed on American college campuses during that time is something desirable, but people doing things that you do not like is not "being actually authoritarian".

dclowd9901 2y ago

Well, if you look at it from the perspective of faithless reporting like that from Fox News and Newsmax, the information pipeline has been selling a narrative that the left has been on an authoritarian tear since Obama. The newscasts are chilling: every one of them for more than two decades has taken a position that the left is an existential threat to the United States. With that kind of context, it's really no wonder there's support from the right for an authoritarian leader. They honestly just think they're playing the democrats game and playing it better. It _is_ a bit odd there's a complete lack of reflection on some of these moves though, but I suppose so long as the current executive branch veers away from changing the second amendment and manages to carve out enough exceptions for their most ardent supporters, all's good from their standpoint.

sepositus 2y ago
A lot of people don't like being told to what say/think/do. It turns out if you bully those people enough they elect a dictator. It wasn't and still isn't a surprise to me.
- clipsy 2y ago
  Perhaps we made the mistake of thinking that the people who "don't like being told to what[sic] say/think/do" actually had something resembling principles rather than a petty and childish desire to dictate what others are allowed to say/think/do.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- Hojojo 2y ago
  And yet they're being told to say/think/do every single day by Trump, Fox News, and the rest of conservative or alt right media, including people like Alex Jones and Joe Rogan. They love being told what to think.
  - tstrimple 2y ago
    You can literally watch this stuff real time on the internet now. Trump does something awful. Conservatives online are confused and start asking questions. Talking points from Fox News come out and basically every single conservative online is parroting the party talking points handed down to them. No more confusion.
    - Hojojo 2y ago
      I always wonder what that must be like. There is no authority I trust and believe as much as they do Fox News or Trump. There's no simple answer, no easy solution. Trying to figure out what actually happened can take days, weeks, even years. And even then, it might remain unclear and there's often no certainty to be had. But for them, the answer, the cause, whatever, is there for them the very next evening. In bite-sized nuggets they can repeat without thinking.
    - Timon3 2y ago
      Thank you for pointing this pattern out. I've seen it time and time again, most prominently after Jan 6. I think a big part is the manipulation of online spaces, e.g. the subreddits - threads and comments counter the narrative are quickly deleted, and they start piling onto anyone who still disagrees, calling them RINOs and so on. It's scary just how cult-ish this pattern is.
- NotMichaelBay 2y ago
  I think what we know about disinformation shows people don't have to actually be bullied, they just have to think they're being bullied. Disinformation is cheap and apparently yields great returns.
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - sepositus 2y ago
    I mean, this is exactly the kind of thinking that got us here. We just attribute everything to disinformation and throw our hands up as if none of this was avoidable. I'm convinced that people on the right were called Nazi's long enough that some people literally think _every_ one of them is a literal, actual Nazi. To the point where they think there's no hope in ever reaching them. I saw this coming years ago. The rhetoric on both sides was never going to end up in anything remotely resembling healthy. Both sides are too busy pointing fingers now to really want to do anything about it.
    - NotMichaelBay 2y ago
      > We just attribute everything to disinformation The full effect that disinformation has had on Americans is probably impossible to measure, but with evidence like the Mueller report, you cannot deny that it has had some tangible effect. With Russia's efforts and the outcome of the 2016 election, I would be surprised if they did not continue and even ramp up their efforts in subsequent elections.
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      No, the occasional hazy reflection of the constant barrage of "socialist/communist/Marxist" accusations from the right did not cause the problem and Democrats being even more limp-wristed would not have fixed it.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      > We just attribute everything to disinformation and throw our hands up as if none of this was avoidable Well yes. it was. This was avoidable, but not by those fooled with fear from lies. It came from the rational people who felt their vote didn't matter, or that fell for obvious distractions as if somehow Trump was better because their aligned candidate wasn't the perfect progressive. >Both sides are too busy pointing fingers now to really want to do anything about it. if you only focus on the radicals, it's not surprising you become radical yourself and cast aside the grand majority of moderates. That both sidesing narrative is also a trick.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  But a government is supposed to tell you what to say, think, and do. This dictatorial government is actually enforcing that you say and think what they want, unlike all the others.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Isn't the dictator telling people what to say/think/do far more than any government leader in US history?
barfingclouds 2y ago
The left has been authoritarian. Rewind the clock to 2018, and speak your mind freely on a college campus and at some point you’ll say something that makes you lose your job. That’s one of many examples of the left being actually authoritarian. I’m not saying two wrongs make a right and I’m not justifying the current administration. But if we look to how we got here, that’s a lot of why, if not mostly why.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  I'm amenable to hearing out this argument, but it would be rude to let you slip by with "in 2018, if you spoke your mind, you'd get fired." You and I both know that wouldn't fly in middle school debate class, even, and I don't want to cheapen our relationship by nodding along to it.
- smallmancontrov 2y ago
  Calling overzealous campus progressives of 2018 authoritarian is quite silly next to the actual demonstrations of actual authoritarian behavior from the actual authorities actually happening right now.
- hummusandsushi 2y ago
  It is astoundingly intellectually dishonest for anybody who identifies with the American right, which espouses values of personal responsibility and the rights of organizations such as companies and universities to self-govern, to imply that a direct application of these values is "authoritarian". Free speech is understood as the ability to express yourself and your beliefs without consequences from the government, it has never meant to practically anyone that it means that as a culture no individual or organization will take action against you. This is personal responsibility in action, you must be prepared to shoulder the consequences of what you say and do. People losing their jobs in universities and otherwise for expressing certain beliefs is not somehow unique to the American political left of the preceding decade, and it is strange that people have been misled into thinking that it is. Of course it is regrettable that some people may have lost their jobs engaging in good-faith reasoned expression of their beliefs, but you cannot argue that this is somehow the result of "the left". I intentionally make no judgment here on whether I believe the climate that existed on American college campuses during that time is something desirable, but people doing things that you do not like is not "being actually authoritarian".