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Simple, UX. The reality is, most webapps for mobile just suck. The UX is nowhere near that of a native application. I don't want any text to be selectable. I d

Simple, UX. The reality is, most webapps for mobile just suck. The UX is nowhere near that of a native application. I don't want any text to be selectable. I don't want pull to refresh on every page. I don't want the left-swipe to take me to the previous page. You can probably find workarounds for all these issues. The new Silk library (https://silkhq.co/ https://silkhq.co/) is the first case I've seen that get's very close to a native experience. But even the fact that this is a paid library comes to show how non-trivial this is.

leipie 2y ago
As a user I usually want all of those features to work. I regularly get ticked off at apps, because I cannot copy paste like in the browser or the app just closes (and loses all state) because I tried to use the back button. I also encountered apps that just reset, because I dared switch to another app for a second because I wanted to copy paste something into it...
ffsm8 2y ago
Mmh, the examples you've listed are actually super easy to do if you're using a framework such as angular with it's plugins for pwa and touch controls. And prolly tailwind for css/disabling selection if you really want to, but I'd call that an anti feature in almost all cases.
- xg15 2y ago
  In theory. In practice not so much. I've had enough browser apps try that on my phone. Usually they start to lag out and become unbearably slow due to the framework bloat, compared to native apps that have no such issues.
wiseowise 2y ago
UX is when you have less features - got it.
mojuba 2y ago
To be fair, browser apps do have their advantages: - text is selectable - content is zoomable - you can have an ad/nuisance blocker - page source is open While native apps have their own advantages: - much smoother experience esp. navigation, scrolling, animations, etc. - better overall performance (JavaScript will always lose to the native binary) - access to hardware opens new possibilities; audio, video accelerators etc.; there's a ton of things you can't do in the browser with audio for example - widgets, some of them are nice and useful too - for publishers: an app icon on the home screen is a reminder, a "hook" of sorts; this is the main reason they push apps over web versions
- octacat 2y ago
  + working notifications - adblocker is more of a minus for publishers though But mainly don't expect any good web app integration on mobile, because it would hit the store 30% tax.
- blacklight 2y ago
  All the features you mentioned can also be achieved by a well developed PWA. Of course, minus the widgets or some deeper system integration (like controlling phone calls etc.)
  - mojuba 2y ago
    Try to build a more or less serious music synth in the browser that won’t kill your battery.
    - firtoz 2y ago
      Heh, I was actually building one. Haven't considered the battery... Are the web audio APIs bad, or are you forced to use the CPU? I guess with webgpu it may be easier?
      - mojuba 2y ago
        I think on iOS you need access on the CoreAudio level if you want to be efficient, ie fill audio buffers on a high priority thread with some lower level static language.
Aerroon 2y ago
Most apps for mobile suck too. A lot of them are worse because they are not in a web browser, eg YouTube or Reddit or similar apps that work via urls. Browsers are some of the very few apps that work well on a phone. Most of the other ones feel like a mess (except games I guess).
jonplackett 2y ago
You have to wonder about the motivations of the company making the browser that makes it impossible to disable some of these things, and therefore makes real apps so much superior (like swipe to go back on safari - I have never ever swiped back intentionally in over 100000 swipe backs).
- jodrellblank 2y ago
  “I have never wanted to type the letter ‘e’ in any of the 100,000 times I hit the ‘e’ key on the keyboard; it’s always felt suspicious to me why keyboards even have an ‘e’ key which can’t be disabled” said the perfectly normal hacker news commenter.
- rezonant 2y ago
  > I have never ever swiped back intentionally in over 100000 swipe backs Real question here, what are you trying to do when you "swipe back"?
  - bluedino 2y ago
    Dating apps. By instinct I swipe back like I am in Safari, and that does something else in those.
  - jonplackett 2y ago
    Swipe UP
  - miramba 2y ago
    Touching something on the left side, like a link, and let my finger touch the glass a tiny bit too long while pulling the finger back. Unwanted swiping happens to me all the time in all directions - may the developers use a touch screen for everything forever!
  - nsonha 2y ago
    This swipe thing violates one of the most basic ux principles by making a destructive action easily triggered by accident.
buyucu 2y ago
webapp UIs suck because nobody cares about them. They could be a lot better.
silisili 2y ago
That's funny, I use Amazon on mobile web, my wife insists on the app. Guess which one of us has way more problems, due to both functionality and a constantly changing layout?
fauigerzigerk 2y ago
>I don't want any text to be selectable. I don't want pull to refresh on every page. I don't want the left-swipe to take me to the previous page. Strange. This inability to select any text has always felt like one of the most hostile things developers could ever do. It feels like pure vandalism. Another thing that causes massive productivity degradation is not being able to keep multiple pages open so you can come back to some state. I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly use these apps for any serious work. The UX of almost all native mobile apps is absolute crap. But it's not their nativeness that makes them crap. I'm not complaining about the idea of operating systems offering non-portable but high performance UI primitives that make use of OS facilities. Many native desktop apps don't have these UX issues (at least not all of them at the same time). It's the mobile UX patterns, conventions and native UI frameworks that are causing this catastrophic state of affairs.
- whstl 2y ago
  Inability to select text is a pain in the ass when you're midway through learning the language and only wants to translate certain parts. In native apps it's understood (app makers don't really give a shit about me), but when it's in websites it's like a slap in the face :)
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  Yeah, the app model of one page open at a time ever is such bad UX. Huge regression from the web. Funnily enough you get around it on an app like Reddit by opening pages in the web browser.
- tshaddox 2y ago
  Also, if my memory serves, native MacOS apps by default support selecting most text that isn’t part of a clickable element like a button.
  - OrangeMusic 2y ago
    No, that's absolutely not the case, and it would be very odd and disturbing.
blacklight 2y ago
It doesn't sound like anything that a PWA (paired with some a sync mechanism like Websockets) can't solve. And with WebAssembly the convergence is even more compelling.
starfezzy 2y ago
That is not an objection. Two decades of webapp progress instead of native app progress would have (and still would) addressed all of that.
nodar86 2y ago
> I don't want any text to be selectable Disabling text selection is not just worse UX, it is actively user-hostile
- divan 2y ago
  In Photoshop panels, title (like "Layers") are not selectable. How is it worse UX or user-hostile?
- crazygringo 2y ago
  I have literally never needed to select text in a UX element. In the past, occasionally there would be an error message in a message box dialog that I wanted to copy and paste. And then I discovered that despite it not looking selectable, it actually was. I don't want to accidentally select the text of my menu bar, or of a text box label, or a dialog tab title.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    I, I, I. Empathy is a weakness. Lots of limitations for you to not accidentally do something, maybe there is a way to not accidentally do those things and also help people that need them.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      No, not providing concrete examples is a weakness. You're awfully arrogant in making a judgement about my empathy... if you want to make this personal. Or maybe you can justify why people need to be able to select menu labels in the first place? That's not standard on any OS I've ever used, so it's up to the person who wants to change things to justify why. Maybe be less judgmental of people here on HN, and contribute something factual instead? I at least gave a factual account of my personal experience, which is a data point. Describing one's experience isn't egoism.
      - nazgul17 2y ago
        A simple and concrete example is, go to Japan, find yourself in need of using any Japanese-only app, be extremely frustrated in not even being able to select text to translate it. At least in recent versions of Android there is that OCR (?) powered functionality to select text when you're in switch-app view.
andoando 2y ago
Nothing prevents fhe same UI being available in web though. Iconic mirrors a lot of it, but Apple/google could have just as easily made them native components triggered in the browser
sota_pop 2y ago
To go along with this UX argument: it’s always been my perception that native apps often lean towards a stateful design while web apps try for stateless. Maybe that’s too abstract (read - incorrect), but was always just where my intuition landed.
lazycouchpotato 2y ago
The "pull to refresh" is probably the most annoying one. Other than that, I'd like text to be selectable! I don't like it when apps don't allow you to copy text. I use Copy [1], and when that doesn't work I use the OCR text selection feature on my Pixel phone. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.weberdo.apps.copy https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.weberdo.ap...

leipie 2y ago

As a user I usually want all of those features to work. I regularly get ticked off at apps, because I cannot copy paste like in the browser or the app just closes (and loses all state) because I tried to use the back button. I also encountered apps that just reset, because I dared switch to another app for a second because I wanted to copy paste something into it...

ffsm8 2y ago

Mmh, the examples you've listed are actually super easy to do if you're using a framework such as angular with it's plugins for pwa and touch controls. And prolly tailwind for css/disabling selection if you really want to, but I'd call that an anti feature in almost all cases.

xg15 2y ago
In theory. In practice not so much. I've had enough browser apps try that on my phone. Usually they start to lag out and become unbearably slow due to the framework bloat, compared to native apps that have no such issues.

wiseowise 2y ago

UX is when you have less features - got it.

mojuba 2y ago

To be fair, browser apps do have their advantages: - text is selectable - content is zoomable - you can have an ad/nuisance blocker - page source is open While native apps have their own advantages: - much smoother experience esp. navigation, scrolling, animations, etc. - better overall performance (JavaScript will always lose to the native binary) - access to hardware opens new possibilities; audio, video accelerators etc.; there's a ton of things you can't do in the browser with audio for example - widgets, some of them are nice and useful too - for publishers: an app icon on the home screen is a reminder, a "hook" of sorts; this is the main reason they push apps over web versions

octacat 2y ago
+ working notifications - adblocker is more of a minus for publishers though But mainly don't expect any good web app integration on mobile, because it would hit the store 30% tax.
blacklight 2y ago
All the features you mentioned can also be achieved by a well developed PWA. Of course, minus the widgets or some deeper system integration (like controlling phone calls etc.)
- mojuba 2y ago
  Try to build a more or less serious music synth in the browser that won’t kill your battery.
  - firtoz 2y ago
    Heh, I was actually building one. Haven't considered the battery... Are the web audio APIs bad, or are you forced to use the CPU? I guess with webgpu it may be easier?
    - mojuba 2y ago
      I think on iOS you need access on the CoreAudio level if you want to be efficient, ie fill audio buffers on a high priority thread with some lower level static language.

Aerroon 2y ago

Most apps for mobile suck too. A lot of them are worse because they are not in a web browser, eg YouTube or Reddit or similar apps that work via urls. Browsers are some of the very few apps that work well on a phone. Most of the other ones feel like a mess (except games I guess).

jonplackett 2y ago

You have to wonder about the motivations of the company making the browser that makes it impossible to disable some of these things, and therefore makes real apps so much superior (like swipe to go back on safari - I have never ever swiped back intentionally in over 100000 swipe backs).

jodrellblank 2y ago
“I have never wanted to type the letter ‘e’ in any of the 100,000 times I hit the ‘e’ key on the keyboard; it’s always felt suspicious to me why keyboards even have an ‘e’ key which can’t be disabled” said the perfectly normal hacker news commenter.
rezonant 2y ago
> I have never ever swiped back intentionally in over 100000 swipe backs Real question here, what are you trying to do when you "swipe back"?
- bluedino 2y ago
  Dating apps. By instinct I swipe back like I am in Safari, and that does something else in those.
- jonplackett 2y ago
  Swipe UP
- miramba 2y ago
  Touching something on the left side, like a link, and let my finger touch the glass a tiny bit too long while pulling the finger back. Unwanted swiping happens to me all the time in all directions - may the developers use a touch screen for everything forever!
- nsonha 2y ago
  This swipe thing violates one of the most basic ux principles by making a destructive action easily triggered by accident.

buyucu 2y ago

webapp UIs suck because nobody cares about them. They could be a lot better.

silisili 2y ago

That's funny, I use Amazon on mobile web, my wife insists on the app. Guess which one of us has way more problems, due to both functionality and a constantly changing layout?

fauigerzigerk 2y ago

>I don't want any text to be selectable. I don't want pull to refresh on every page. I don't want the left-swipe to take me to the previous page. Strange. This inability to select any text has always felt like one of the most hostile things developers could ever do. It feels like pure vandalism. Another thing that causes massive productivity degradation is not being able to keep multiple pages open so you can come back to some state. I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly use these apps for any serious work. The UX of almost all native mobile apps is absolute crap. But it's not their nativeness that makes them crap. I'm not complaining about the idea of operating systems offering non-portable but high performance UI primitives that make use of OS facilities. Many native desktop apps don't have these UX issues (at least not all of them at the same time). It's the mobile UX patterns, conventions and native UI frameworks that are causing this catastrophic state of affairs.

whstl 2y ago
Inability to select text is a pain in the ass when you're midway through learning the language and only wants to translate certain parts. In native apps it's understood (app makers don't really give a shit about me), but when it's in websites it's like a slap in the face :)
hombre_fatal 2y ago
Yeah, the app model of one page open at a time ever is such bad UX. Huge regression from the web. Funnily enough you get around it on an app like Reddit by opening pages in the web browser.
tshaddox 2y ago
Also, if my memory serves, native MacOS apps by default support selecting most text that isn’t part of a clickable element like a button.
- OrangeMusic 2y ago
  No, that's absolutely not the case, and it would be very odd and disturbing.

blacklight 2y ago

It doesn't sound like anything that a PWA (paired with some a sync mechanism like Websockets) can't solve. And with WebAssembly the convergence is even more compelling.

starfezzy 2y ago

That is not an objection. Two decades of webapp progress instead of native app progress would have (and still would) addressed all of that.

nodar86 2y ago

> I don't want any text to be selectable Disabling text selection is not just worse UX, it is actively user-hostile

divan 2y ago
In Photoshop panels, title (like "Layers") are not selectable. How is it worse UX or user-hostile?
crazygringo 2y ago
I have literally never needed to select text in a UX element. In the past, occasionally there would be an error message in a message box dialog that I wanted to copy and paste. And then I discovered that despite it not looking selectable, it actually was. I don't want to accidentally select the text of my menu bar, or of a text box label, or a dialog tab title.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I, I, I. Empathy is a weakness. Lots of limitations for you to not accidentally do something, maybe there is a way to not accidentally do those things and also help people that need them.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    No, not providing concrete examples is a weakness. You're awfully arrogant in making a judgement about my empathy... if you want to make this personal. Or maybe you can justify why people need to be able to select menu labels in the first place? That's not standard on any OS I've ever used, so it's up to the person who wants to change things to justify why. Maybe be less judgmental of people here on HN, and contribute something factual instead? I at least gave a factual account of my personal experience, which is a data point. Describing one's experience isn't egoism.
    - nazgul17 2y ago
      A simple and concrete example is, go to Japan, find yourself in need of using any Japanese-only app, be extremely frustrated in not even being able to select text to translate it. At least in recent versions of Android there is that OCR (?) powered functionality to select text when you're in switch-app view.

andoando 2y ago

Nothing prevents fhe same UI being available in web though. Iconic mirrors a lot of it, but Apple/google could have just as easily made them native components triggered in the browser

sota_pop 2y ago

To go along with this UX argument: it’s always been my perception that native apps often lean towards a stateful design while web apps try for stateless. Maybe that’s too abstract (read - incorrect), but was always just where my intuition landed.

lazycouchpotato 2y ago

The "pull to refresh" is probably the most annoying one. Other than that, I'd like text to be selectable! I don't like it when apps don't allow you to copy text. I use Copy [1], and when that doesn't work I use the OCR text selection feature on my Pixel phone. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.weberdo.apps.copy https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.weberdo.ap...