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I thought this was somewhat obvious. Kids are really smart in their limited context. It’s communication they need to learn. This is similar with people. Many p

I thought this was somewhat obvious. Kids are really smart in their limited context. It’s communication they need to learn. This is similar with people. Many people are quite intelligent, just not in a way we value or understand.

sejje 2y ago
Can you elaborate on ways people are intelligent that we don't value?
- graemep 2y ago
  One thing that always strikes me in assessments of intelligence in young children (specially in comparisons with animals) is that they focus on what children can do, where as the really remarkable thing about young children is how fast they can learn.
  - sejje 2y ago
    I think society highly values fast learners. People put it on applications all the time.
    - graemep 2y ago
      In adults, certainly. In things like the study in the article, and in young children in general, not really.
- lordnacho 2y ago
  Maybe it's not that we don't value it, but that we don't recognize it. I've run into a number of ostensibly less-educated people who nonetheless made astute observations about their economic incentives. Generally a lot of game-like situations seem to have players who understand the game in some way without having any formal instruction, and without being what we normally think of a being particularly intelligent. I have a relative who does well at poker, despite not finishing school. A drainage guy I know has a good understanding of the business and where the opportunities are. In general a bunch of people in the trades seem to "get it". I've run into a bunch of these people who you don't think of as being intelligent, but if you frame something as a game, they know how to play. None of these people could be taught high school calculus, for instance, but they are still intelligent in a way that's useful to them. If we're talking about kids, from about the age of four they learn to trick you. "Dad, you have to give me ice cream. Mom says so. Don't wake her up." And it gets more and more sophisticated as they get older.
  - InitialLastName 2y ago
    > a bunch of people in the trades seem to "get it". I think this is a few things: - The people in the trades who get to running their own business have (by nature of survival bias) developed two skills at a good level: doing that trade and running a business - Trades, because they involve material output and safety, have relatively little tolerance for the kinds of bozos who can slip under the radar in the white-collar and service sector worlds.
- dubcanada 2y ago
  Socially, emotionally, physically for example are ways people can be intelligent that is ignored in regular schooling. Intelligence is largely related to STEM and memory in most instances. But there are a vast number of other ways to be intelligent. Perhaps you excel at emotionally connecting with people, maybe you're really good at cooking or tooling approaches. All of these are ignored in school. School is nothing more then a checkbox along your path, you need to be able to read, write, do math, etc. But we ignore a large amount of our populace who may excel at grunt work, or maybe they are really good at leadership. Just because you don't know y=mx+b or struggle at reasoning/logistical challenges does not mean you are not valuable to society. Maybe your 300lbs of rock solid muscle and in a past live would have been a top tier hunter. We do appreciate some amount of sports, but even that stops unless you're in the top 1-2% of the country.
  - Miraste 2y ago
    This is off base. Socially intelligent people occupy all of the best paid and most powerful positions in society. Social manipulation is the most valued kind of intelligence in America, far more than academic intelligence.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      Social intelligence is how you capture all of the added value of a trade, leaving none for the other guy. But you have to generate value in the first place, otherwise you can use social intelligence only for theft.
      - Miraste 2y ago
        Exactly, it's useful for theft. Taking the value other people produce is the whole benefit of social intelligence. If you can convince someone that a scam is a good deal, you don't need to create any value at all. This is the origin of, among others, the political class.
        BobaFloutist 2y ago
- hzay 2y ago
  Some languages are supposed to be very difficult & mentally taxing to learn, because they have many conjugations. But a native speaker with very low intelligence (however you measure it) has zero trouble conjugating it all correctly.
vwcx 2y ago
This is tangent, but your comment reminds me of this essay that floats around HN every so often about how limiting school is. Young children are absolutely capable of greatness beyond what we ever ask of them, and most of us are okay with them growing up in the rigid, ordained box of modern public schooling: https://map.simonsarris.com/p/school-is-not-enough https://map.simonsarris.com/p/school-is-not-enough
- 11101010001100 2y ago
  Yes, this is also somewhat obvious (speaking as a teacher).
- watwut 2y ago
  I prefer my kids going to school then being limited by what a single household can teach them. Modern schooling is way better then what conservative attacks on it claim. And I would strongly preferred to live in a country with functional public school system then one without it.
  - theultdev 2y ago
    I don't think you need to trust what "conservatives claim" when you see the test scores and literacy rates. American public schooling is and has been broken for awhile.
    - alistairSH 2y ago
      There are many reasonable criticisms of modern public schooling, but the claim that's it's completely broken (and needs burnt to the ground, as many conservatives will claim) is hyperbole and unhelpful to making actual productive change. And the notion that private schooling (in general) is better is hard to believe. When we looked at private schools for our son, test scores and college admittance were only marginally higher and much of the gap was simple selection bias (private schools are not legally required to take all students, so don't deal with disabled, disadvantaged, or otherwise non-exceptional students). The only time private was substantially better was hyper-elite, hyper-expensive schools (Sidwell Friends, DC vs Paul VI, Fairfax vs the publics in FCPS).
dsego 2y ago
They are basically lacking the experience and have limited knowledge of the world around them. And us adults often fail to understand their mental model, since we usually won't connect the same dots, but there is definitely logic to their reasoning. It's best to try and ask more questions to know how they've come to some ridiculous idea, and they usually reveal one or two steps that I wouldn't think about.

sejje 2y ago

Can you elaborate on ways people are intelligent that we don't value?

graemep 2y ago
One thing that always strikes me in assessments of intelligence in young children (specially in comparisons with animals) is that they focus on what children can do, where as the really remarkable thing about young children is how fast they can learn.
- sejje 2y ago
  I think society highly values fast learners. People put it on applications all the time.
  - graemep 2y ago
    In adults, certainly. In things like the study in the article, and in young children in general, not really.
lordnacho 2y ago
Maybe it's not that we don't value it, but that we don't recognize it. I've run into a number of ostensibly less-educated people who nonetheless made astute observations about their economic incentives. Generally a lot of game-like situations seem to have players who understand the game in some way without having any formal instruction, and without being what we normally think of a being particularly intelligent. I have a relative who does well at poker, despite not finishing school. A drainage guy I know has a good understanding of the business and where the opportunities are. In general a bunch of people in the trades seem to "get it". I've run into a bunch of these people who you don't think of as being intelligent, but if you frame something as a game, they know how to play. None of these people could be taught high school calculus, for instance, but they are still intelligent in a way that's useful to them. If we're talking about kids, from about the age of four they learn to trick you. "Dad, you have to give me ice cream. Mom says so. Don't wake her up." And it gets more and more sophisticated as they get older.
- InitialLastName 2y ago
  > a bunch of people in the trades seem to "get it". I think this is a few things: - The people in the trades who get to running their own business have (by nature of survival bias) developed two skills at a good level: doing that trade and running a business - Trades, because they involve material output and safety, have relatively little tolerance for the kinds of bozos who can slip under the radar in the white-collar and service sector worlds.
dubcanada 2y ago
Socially, emotionally, physically for example are ways people can be intelligent that is ignored in regular schooling. Intelligence is largely related to STEM and memory in most instances. But there are a vast number of other ways to be intelligent. Perhaps you excel at emotionally connecting with people, maybe you're really good at cooking or tooling approaches. All of these are ignored in school. School is nothing more then a checkbox along your path, you need to be able to read, write, do math, etc. But we ignore a large amount of our populace who may excel at grunt work, or maybe they are really good at leadership. Just because you don't know y=mx+b or struggle at reasoning/logistical challenges does not mean you are not valuable to society. Maybe your 300lbs of rock solid muscle and in a past live would have been a top tier hunter. We do appreciate some amount of sports, but even that stops unless you're in the top 1-2% of the country.
- Miraste 2y ago
  This is off base. Socially intelligent people occupy all of the best paid and most powerful positions in society. Social manipulation is the most valued kind of intelligence in America, far more than academic intelligence.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Social intelligence is how you capture all of the added value of a trade, leaving none for the other guy. But you have to generate value in the first place, otherwise you can use social intelligence only for theft.
    - Miraste 2y ago
      Exactly, it's useful for theft. Taking the value other people produce is the whole benefit of social intelligence. If you can convince someone that a scam is a good deal, you don't need to create any value at all. This is the origin of, among others, the political class.
      - BobaFloutist 2y ago
hzay 2y ago
Some languages are supposed to be very difficult & mentally taxing to learn, because they have many conjugations. But a native speaker with very low intelligence (however you measure it) has zero trouble conjugating it all correctly.

vwcx 2y ago

This is tangent, but your comment reminds me of this essay that floats around HN every so often about how limiting school is. Young children are absolutely capable of greatness beyond what we ever ask of them, and most of us are okay with them growing up in the rigid, ordained box of modern public schooling: https://map.simonsarris.com/p/school-is-not-enough https://map.simonsarris.com/p/school-is-not-enough

11101010001100 2y ago
Yes, this is also somewhat obvious (speaking as a teacher).
watwut 2y ago
I prefer my kids going to school then being limited by what a single household can teach them. Modern schooling is way better then what conservative attacks on it claim. And I would strongly preferred to live in a country with functional public school system then one without it.
- theultdev 2y ago
  I don't think you need to trust what "conservatives claim" when you see the test scores and literacy rates. American public schooling is and has been broken for awhile.
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    There are many reasonable criticisms of modern public schooling, but the claim that's it's completely broken (and needs burnt to the ground, as many conservatives will claim) is hyperbole and unhelpful to making actual productive change. And the notion that private schooling (in general) is better is hard to believe. When we looked at private schools for our son, test scores and college admittance were only marginally higher and much of the gap was simple selection bias (private schools are not legally required to take all students, so don't deal with disabled, disadvantaged, or otherwise non-exceptional students). The only time private was substantially better was hyper-elite, hyper-expensive schools (Sidwell Friends, DC vs Paul VI, Fairfax vs the publics in FCPS).

dsego 2y ago

They are basically lacking the experience and have limited knowledge of the world around them. And us adults often fail to understand their mental model, since we usually won't connect the same dots, but there is definitely logic to their reasoning. It's best to try and ask more questions to know how they've come to some ridiculous idea, and they usually reveal one or two steps that I wouldn't think about.