8 ms·

> despite being completely detached from useful skills for a wide swathes of degrees It's a nice suggestion, but it's one that isn't supported by the evidence.

by KPGv2 2y ago

> despite being completely detached from useful skills for a wide swathes of degrees It's a nice suggestion, but it's one that isn't supported by the evidence. Even controlling for other factors, a college degree makes more productive workers. And given that it's controlling for other factors, "selection bias" becomes a hard argument to make. STEMbros get real arrogant about their degrees (I have one; I've seen it first hand), but like it or not the person with an English degree still learned a lot of useful skills. Going to uni to major in a specific career is how you get screwed when available careers change.

HPsquared 2y ago
I don't think there is any doubt spending 4 years studying a subject will increase skills in some areas. The question is whether the benefits are worth the cost (and that question applies both to the individual student and society as a whole). Remember the cost of all this is absolutely massive. Mostly the 4 years of lost time.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 18766hahsbc767 2y ago
  It doesn't have to be though. In Europe the vast majority of people attend public universities that don't require having to end up with a degree and crippling debt. I left uni almost 20 years ago, but one year of my tuition was about 1000USD at the time, something I could easily afford with a part time job. I'm sure the cost is higher now, but I would have thought it is still orders of magnitude cheaper than in the UK or the US. Germany subsidizes university tuition fees for a huge percentage of students, and adds a monthly stipend for expenses and free public transport while enrolled in uni. Your point is valid, challenging the worth/cost of higher education. But I think it is the cost part what is broken in some parts of the world, not necessarily the worth part.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    The cost is there regardless. If the ROI is negative then it's making somebody worse off even if the state is paying for it. If the state pays, it's even worse, because people may take the option based on a positive ROI for themselves while it's overall negative. If the ROI is positive but people aren't taking advantage because of the cost to themselves, then you want to look at subsidies.
    - delusional 2y ago
      Sometimes "ROI" isn't measurable. What's the "ROI" of a well rounded populus that gets along and doesn't want to kill each other? What's the "ROI" of creating beautiful works of art, or producing great culture? What's the "ROI" of happiness? Sometimes the purpose of central government is to make a negative ROI into a positive one, because there are greater purpose than the return
      - wat10000 2y ago
        It may not be measurable but we still need to think about it and do our best to figure out what things cost more than the benefits they provide.
        delusional 2y ago
        What if we don't agree what the benefits are? Tieing the "benefits" to money breaks your system before you even get it off the ground. We already have a way to discuss that benefit, it's the political process. Doing politics IS figuring out the benefits.
        wat10000 2y ago
        You answer your own question here. You don’t have to tie the benefits to money, but you do need to understand that there is a cost, some of which is money, and the benefits should be worth it if you’re going to be doing it. Who pays the money is a secondary concern to that.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  I mean we can reform it without necessarily throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In Europe a bachelor's can often take 3 years, and maybe we can even shrink it down to 2 years; this is already kind of a thing in the US with some schools offering a 5 year bachelor+master's program. Realistically maybe we reform community college to be the required thing instead of traditional undergrad, since the cost and length is more comparable.
  - monknomo 2y ago
    associate degrees exist
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      they exist, but at least employers do not seem to think they currently cover enough to accept them in lieu of a bachelor's. in fact i would say I don't know how much additional value an associates' holds in that context, and maybe we just merge the two concepts. I haven't ever really seen a posting that is okay with just an associate's.
- ninehunnert 2y ago
  [dead]
- PlunderBunny 2y ago
  A higher education/degree teaches you how to think, not what to think. I’ve never used the knowledge from my physics degrees directly, but they taught me problem solving skills that I have applied to my career. Here’s a pointed take on it from one of New Zealand’s successful businessmen: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education/the-art-of-business-success/QSNAYZSYXPTRTUAUQ7BLZARYKM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education/the-art-of-business-...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
JamesBarney 2y ago
> Even controlling for other factors, a college degree makes more productive workers I'd like to see this study. Most of the data I've seen that is pro-college still has massive confounds. Two twins graduate high school. One gets a crappy copywriting job, and spends her free time reading books on how to write better, and specifically how to do copywriting. The other gets an English degree. I'm not nearly as confident as you are the one with the English degree is going to be a better copywriter. I don't disagree you can learn skills, but cognitive science literature solidly shows far transfer is not a thing, and when it is it's incredibly inefficient. i.e. Reading the great works of Russian literature might make you a better copywriter but at a vastly slower pace than writing copy, or reading a book on copywriting.
- Clubber 2y ago
  I think an undervalued aspect of college over self learning for most is that college requires you to learn a broader array of things. If I was allowed just pick the classes I wanted to take for four years, they would have all been computer related classes. I would never had taken Chemistry, Physics, Drama, Psychology, History, International Relations, or anything that makes me a more educated and well rounded thinker.
  - JamesBarney 2y ago
    We look at that positively becomes it's a sunk cost, but if someone were to put the circumstances in front of us would we still be happy about it? If your job told you that you had to pay 10k to study French poetry for 6 months without pay, would you happy for the opportunity to a more well rounded thinker?
    - Clubber 2y ago
      >If your job told you that you had to pay 10k to study French poetry for 6 months without pay, would you happy for the opportunity to a more well rounded thinker? That's unrealistic. 1. That's just one subject. 2. Semesters and/or quarters are not 6 months. 3. Most colleges don't charge $10K for one subject for 6 months. Having said all that, yes there were some annoying class requirements that I didn't particularly care for, but I still learned something from it. If nothing else, it allowed me to have more conversations with a broader array of people. Make no mistake, being an educated conversationalist impresses people. Being able to intelligently converse with more people because of a broader knowledge base has significant social and economic value. Imagine if you met your perfect mate by being able to talk about French poetry. Imagine your perfect company has a hiring manager who also loves French poetry. We are ultimately social creatures.
Ekaros 2y ago
More productive or more extractive. Managerial class has the degrees and they pay themselves and each other higher wages. A lot of production is done by those under them... Are they actually more productive or just lot more extractive?

by KPGv2 2y ago

HPsquared 2y ago

I don't think there is any doubt spending 4 years studying a subject will increase skills in some areas. The question is whether the benefits are worth the cost (and that question applies both to the individual student and society as a whole). Remember the cost of all this is absolutely massive. Mostly the 4 years of lost time.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
18766hahsbc767 2y ago
It doesn't have to be though. In Europe the vast majority of people attend public universities that don't require having to end up with a degree and crippling debt. I left uni almost 20 years ago, but one year of my tuition was about 1000USD at the time, something I could easily afford with a part time job. I'm sure the cost is higher now, but I would have thought it is still orders of magnitude cheaper than in the UK or the US. Germany subsidizes university tuition fees for a huge percentage of students, and adds a monthly stipend for expenses and free public transport while enrolled in uni. Your point is valid, challenging the worth/cost of higher education. But I think it is the cost part what is broken in some parts of the world, not necessarily the worth part.
- wat10000 2y ago
  The cost is there regardless. If the ROI is negative then it's making somebody worse off even if the state is paying for it. If the state pays, it's even worse, because people may take the option based on a positive ROI for themselves while it's overall negative. If the ROI is positive but people aren't taking advantage because of the cost to themselves, then you want to look at subsidies.
  - delusional 2y ago
    Sometimes "ROI" isn't measurable. What's the "ROI" of a well rounded populus that gets along and doesn't want to kill each other? What's the "ROI" of creating beautiful works of art, or producing great culture? What's the "ROI" of happiness? Sometimes the purpose of central government is to make a negative ROI into a positive one, because there are greater purpose than the return
    - wat10000 2y ago
      It may not be measurable but we still need to think about it and do our best to figure out what things cost more than the benefits they provide.
      - delusional 2y ago
        What if we don't agree what the benefits are? Tieing the "benefits" to money breaks your system before you even get it off the ground. We already have a way to discuss that benefit, it's the political process. Doing politics IS figuring out the benefits.
        wat10000 2y ago
        You answer your own question here. You don’t have to tie the benefits to money, but you do need to understand that there is a cost, some of which is money, and the benefits should be worth it if you’re going to be doing it. Who pays the money is a secondary concern to that.
bobthepanda 2y ago
I mean we can reform it without necessarily throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In Europe a bachelor's can often take 3 years, and maybe we can even shrink it down to 2 years; this is already kind of a thing in the US with some schools offering a 5 year bachelor+master's program. Realistically maybe we reform community college to be the required thing instead of traditional undergrad, since the cost and length is more comparable.
- monknomo 2y ago
  associate degrees exist
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    they exist, but at least employers do not seem to think they currently cover enough to accept them in lieu of a bachelor's. in fact i would say I don't know how much additional value an associates' holds in that context, and maybe we just merge the two concepts. I haven't ever really seen a posting that is okay with just an associate's.
ninehunnert 2y ago
[dead]
PlunderBunny 2y ago
A higher education/degree teaches you how to think, not what to think. I’ve never used the knowledge from my physics degrees directly, but they taught me problem solving skills that I have applied to my career. Here’s a pointed take on it from one of New Zealand’s successful businessmen: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education/the-art-of-business-success/QSNAYZSYXPTRTUAUQ7BLZARYKM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education/the-art-of-business-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

JamesBarney 2y ago

> Even controlling for other factors, a college degree makes more productive workers I'd like to see this study. Most of the data I've seen that is pro-college still has massive confounds. Two twins graduate high school. One gets a crappy copywriting job, and spends her free time reading books on how to write better, and specifically how to do copywriting. The other gets an English degree. I'm not nearly as confident as you are the one with the English degree is going to be a better copywriter. I don't disagree you can learn skills, but cognitive science literature solidly shows far transfer is not a thing, and when it is it's incredibly inefficient. i.e. Reading the great works of Russian literature might make you a better copywriter but at a vastly slower pace than writing copy, or reading a book on copywriting.

Clubber 2y ago
I think an undervalued aspect of college over self learning for most is that college requires you to learn a broader array of things. If I was allowed just pick the classes I wanted to take for four years, they would have all been computer related classes. I would never had taken Chemistry, Physics, Drama, Psychology, History, International Relations, or anything that makes me a more educated and well rounded thinker.
- JamesBarney 2y ago
  We look at that positively becomes it's a sunk cost, but if someone were to put the circumstances in front of us would we still be happy about it? If your job told you that you had to pay 10k to study French poetry for 6 months without pay, would you happy for the opportunity to a more well rounded thinker?
  - Clubber 2y ago
    >If your job told you that you had to pay 10k to study French poetry for 6 months without pay, would you happy for the opportunity to a more well rounded thinker? That's unrealistic. 1. That's just one subject. 2. Semesters and/or quarters are not 6 months. 3. Most colleges don't charge $10K for one subject for 6 months. Having said all that, yes there were some annoying class requirements that I didn't particularly care for, but I still learned something from it. If nothing else, it allowed me to have more conversations with a broader array of people. Make no mistake, being an educated conversationalist impresses people. Being able to intelligently converse with more people because of a broader knowledge base has significant social and economic value. Imagine if you met your perfect mate by being able to talk about French poetry. Imagine your perfect company has a hiring manager who also loves French poetry. We are ultimately social creatures.

Ekaros 2y ago

More productive or more extractive. Managerial class has the degrees and they pay themselves and each other higher wages. A lot of production is done by those under them... Are they actually more productive or just lot more extractive?