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Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Houses laid out in a

Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Houses laid out in a way that you're more likely to drink your coffee on your back patio surrounded by a fence or hedges to avoid being seen. And even if you are sitting in front of your house, neighbors are more likely to be driving by instead of walking so not very likely to stop and chat. In densely populated cities, you are often in close proximity with other humans you haven't met yet. But there can be social and cultural norms to keep walking and avoid eye contact because social interaction with all the countless people you pass is completely impractical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AoNuz1gjQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AoNuz1gjQo So both environments have their challenges for impromptu social interactions.

tptacek 2y ago
I live in an inner-ring suburb of Chicago (Oak Park) and stoop coffee would be much easier to do here than in San Francisco (where I lived many years ago). This is what my suburb looks like: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9014246,-87.791197,3a,75y,177.64h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp9IMOrbuL7PL0rGB6IbVlg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0%26panoid%3Dp9IMOrbuL7PL0rGB6IbVlg%26yaw%3D177.64!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9014246,-87.791197,3a,75y,17...
- azdle 2y ago
  There's no official definition of what the "the suburbs" means, but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. The area you linked looks to me more like an older "streetcar suburb", which I think most people would just call "the city".
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,355.27h,85.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.064239911907762%26panoid%3DrBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ%26yaw%3D355.2693897638008!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,3...
      - TeaBrain 2y ago
        >That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. The front yard space and number of driveways in the Oak Park link also stuck out to me.
        tptacek 2y ago
        This is the Chicago block I grew up on. It's less dense than Oak Park. It's easy find blocks like it elsewhere in Chicago. Jeff Park in Chicago and Oak Park are basically clones of each other. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,177.53h,86.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.922534802027684%26panoid%3DprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw%26yaw%3D177.53094509832968!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,1... This is really what most of Chicago looks like (modulo economic conditions in the different neighborhoods --- they're not all this upscale). It's a city of neighborhoods. Most of the streetscapes that jump to mind about Chicago, if you don't live here, are places people basically don't live.
  - oldandboring 2y ago
    Agree. Lots of US cities have neighborhoods like this outside of the downtown business districts. Even in NYC, famous for concrete-jungle apartment dwelling, you find this in Staten Island and in parts of Queens.
    - ascagnel_ 2y ago
      It's the same if you go west -- Hudson County, NJ, is mostly neighborhoods that were designed as streetcar suburbs if you measure by land area.
      - oldandboring 2y ago
        Yup. Sacramento has lots of this. LA county. Boise, Salt Lake City. List goes on.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    we each can only rely on our own experiences, but mine don't agree with you. suburbs in the US northeast have sidewalks. most of LA looks like a suburb to a nor'easter. No sidewalk? rural.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. Define people? When most people I know say suburb they mean this: You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. I'm not at all sure what the utility is of a using a definition of suburb that excludes most of the not-high-density but not-rural US and only counts the absolute worst-designed spaces. It just means we're all talking past each other, with some of us saying "not all suburbs are terrible" and others insisting that suburbs are by definition terrible and anything that isn't terrible isn't a suburb. It's a bit of a True Scotsman fallacy and doesn't make for very useful dialog.
    - throwaway894345 2y ago
      I mean, you’re making the same sort of NTS argument here, aren’t you? > Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. Without defining what constitutes a suburb, how can you argue that most are good? Your argument hinges on your own definition of suburb IMHO. I’m not sure what the right answer is, but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs, but in any case it probably doesn’t hurt to be more precise about what we are praising or criticizing.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        No, I'm not, because I'm not saying that what you are identifying as a suburb isn't a suburb, I'm saying it's not representative of all suburbs. I provide a perfectly valid definition: > You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Since my definition is broader it's less susceptible to NTS fallacies. What you identify as a suburb is a suburb but it is not all suburbs. > but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs Even this is too broad to sweepingly say all suburbs are bad. I've lived in 5 different suburban neighborhoods as an adult, 4 of which were developed post-war, and all had sidewalks and plenty of walking around and neighborly interaction.
- emseetech 2y ago
  Oak Park as "the suburbs" is of a bygone era. If all suburbs were like Oak Park, nobody would complain about the suburbs.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I agree, and outside of Fly.io the thing I work hardest on is advocating for more density here; we're slowly transforming into Winnetka (if you're not a Chicago person, Winnetka is the John Hughes suburb you have in your head when people say things like "suburbs are nothing like the city"). Thankfully, we have a board consensus that has us pointed in the general direction of eliminating single-family zoning, allowing as-of-right 3- and 4-flats everywhere in the Village.
- hugs 2y ago
  hey neighbor :) we should totally do this in oak park. oak parkers already kinda do "stoop coffee", but usually only twice a year during a pre-planned block party. i could see this expanded to something a little more frequent, like maybe sunday mornings from memorial day to labor day.
  - kirtakat 2y ago
    I'm amused to see so many of my neighbors on here - we could do a Hacker News Stoop at one of the coffee shops (Whirlwind is my regular, but it's not like any of the ones in OP are hard to get to!)
    - tptacek 2y ago
      'dhosek is also an Oak Parker. My thing since I moved houses a couple years ago is just hanging out on the porch, and I'm probably just going to start telling people when I'm going to be out there and inviting everyone to just come over.
    - hugs 2y ago
      yes!
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  Oak Park is not what anyone thinks of as a suburb. It's like pretending downtown Evanston is a suburb of Chicago.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Downtown Evanston is a suburb of Chicago.
- avgDev 2y ago
  If you haven't tried already, you need to try Sen Sushi, if you like sushi. That place is amazing.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Sen was a lifeline during the pandemic when going into the city for Japanese stopped being an option. One of the better Oak Park restaurants, in a suburb that is not exactly known for great restaurants. (shh don't tell anybody i said that)
    - kirtakat 2y ago
      I'd like to argue with you, but yeah - as much as I love OP, the restaurants are usually just okay
- Suppafly 2y ago
  I live in a big city in central Illinois, and we have neighborhoods like that in the city. It's hard for people outside to understand that I have suburban style neighborhood but I could walk to the DMV.
- bloomingeek 2y ago
  My wife and I, several years ago, stayed in an Oak Park hotel while visiting Chicago. There was a sort of food festival we happened upon and everyone was extremely friendly. As we rode the el train in, we were fascinated by the view of the closed Brachs factory.
- bryan_w 2y ago
  Those aren't suburbs, this is a suburb: https://maps.app.goo.gl/iS3Zi4CT1vnWkD5P7?g_st=ac https://maps.app.goo.gl/iS3Zi4CT1vnWkD5P7?g_st=ac
  - gonzobonzo 2y ago
    Looking around the neighborhood, I'm seeing sidewalks on many of those streets, paved paths along public green spaces that run between the houses, multiple apartment buildings and a retirement center. Looking at the map, there also appear to be trails through the woods leading to a nearby sports center that's a 5 minute walk away, as well as a nearby bakery.
- senderista 2y ago
  When I lived in Canaryville (South Side neighborhood of Chicago) in the late 90s, people regularly sat on their porches and drank coffee.
- amendegree 2y ago
  Lol this is the most chicago looking chicago that has ever chicagoed. I clicked the link before really registering the comment, and was confused why I was looking at a random Chicago neighborhood. While I do like the way chicago neighborhoods are set up (especially the space between houses and general greenery) I think the compactness that SF has creates more opportunity for interaction. That being said, we did have this sorta thing on my block during covid times (once ppl stopped caring abt the social distancing and mask nonsense) but then the main families that did this moved away to bigger houses (as their families grew) and now it’s basically dead as there wasn’t a lot of intention behind it like the OP clearly has.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I mean, morally, Oak Park should be a part of Chicago.
mcculley 2y ago
Suburbs can also be hostile to pedestrians. In many designs, neighbors only see each other when one or both is inside of a car.
- wglb 2y ago
  When I lived in Ann Arbor, after going to work with a very green sky, I came home to a very weird sound. Quickly figured out that power was out and the weird sound was neighbors sitting on their front stoop talking.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  Where I am in the suburbs, all the dogs know each other, because most of them are on invisible fence lots and they all visit every other dog when on a walk. And it's common for the owner to come out and say hi, too. That being said, I know some of my neighbors by their dog's name ("That's Taj's dad").
- bluGill 2y ago
  Suburbs are not hostile to pedestrians. They are hostile to getting anyplace on foot so cars are common. However they are great places to walk for exercise and many people who live there do that. (see the sibling comment about walking the dog)
  - mcculley 2y ago
    My experience with suburbs is different from yours. I have lived in places where walking is downright dangerous because the architecture is oriented around cars and the drivers are not accustomed to yielding to pedestrians. Many homes are designed such that the inhabitants rarely use the front door, using only the garage.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      That doesn't sound like suburbs I know. The streets are so empty you can safely walk down the middle of them most of the time. People don't, but you could. (kids used to play baseball/basketball in the streets, stopping play when cars come). Of course to get anywhere you need to leave and so it is never far for a major road that is dangerous to be near.
eweise 2y ago
Suburbia houses are usually right next to each other. Densely populated cities stack housing so you have to go down to get out. I've found that its much easier to meeting people in single family homes than five level flats. In any case, the US even in cities, is not set up for gatherings like it is in Europe where there are large spaces people go to socialize.
xattt 2y ago
This is the entire thesis of Jane Jacobs’ work: urban living works because of friction-by-design. Inadvertent interactions between people you see every day build a sense of community over time — the “sidewalk ballet”. I always wondered what she would have thought about her ideas in the context of COVID.
- palijer 2y ago
  I think we're a long way off from the communities when Jane Jacobs lived. An except that I frequently think about, I can't even fathom in a large city in the current era, and not because technology has solved the key problem. >Joe Cornacchia, who keeps the delicatessen, usually has a dozen or so keys at a time for handing out like this. He has a special drawer for them. >Now why do I, and many others, select Joe as a logical custodian for keys? Because we trust him, first, to be a respon sible custodian, but equally important because we know that he combines a feeling of good will with a feeling of no personal responsibility about our private affairs. Joe considers it no con cern of his whom we choose to permit in our places and why. Around on the other side of our block, people leave their keys at a Spanish grocery. On the other side of Joe's block, people leave them at the candy store. Down a block they leave them at the coffee shop, and a few hundred feet around the corner from that, in a barber shop. Around one corner from two fashionable blocks of town houses and apartments in the Upper East Side, people leave their keys in a butcher shop and a bookshop; around another corner they leave them in a cleaner's and a drug store. >In unfashionable East Harlem keys are left with at least one florist, in bakeries, in luncheonettes, in Spanish and Italian groceries.
  - wetmore 2y ago
    This still happens in my experience, I've picked up keys from friends and Airbnb hosts via a local business in the past few years.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      But there is usually a code with some app and all of the social aspects have been removed. It’s not much different than being a higher scale realtor key box.
jll29 2y ago
San Francisco is a great city for that, because it is very walkable (if you have the energy to manage its steep hills). There is a close connection between urban architecture and whether or not community building can take place, and sadly, many places are not like it. Kunstler's TED talk is a fantastic way to become more aware of that topic: https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_the_ghastly_tragedy_of_the_suburbs https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_the_ghastly_... His thesis is some of the US must be torn down to rebuild it in a friendlier community-enabling way. Curiously, to the OP's "stoop coffee" topic, he already recognized the communicative potential/value of the space in front of houses, and he points out that old European cities "got that right" (and having a central market square, too).
lolinder 2y ago
> Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Houses laid out in a way that you're more likely to drink your coffee on your back patio surrounded by a fence or hedges to avoid being seen. This has not been my experience in the surburbs. A typical suburban home has both spaces: a front yard/patio and a back yard/patio. If anything the physical constraints are substantially more conducive to hanging out out front than what I'm seeing in these photos here—people in the suburbs have some amount of space that they actually own in front of their home, they don't have to occupy the sidewalk. As OP said, which one people choose to use depends on the personality of the individual, not the layout of the space. For example: our last four homes, like every home in each neighborhood, have had both, and I always prefer to be out back while my wife loves being out front interacting with the neighbors as they walk by (which, yes, they have regularly done in all four neighborhoods!).
- jacobolus 2y ago
  It’s easier to sit out in the suburbs, but the layout and infrastructure don’t generally encourage walking around, so there are a lot fewer neighbors walking past.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Fewer, sure, but not none. 5-10 people per evening isn't bad, and that's pretty typical for a nice evening in each of those neighborhoods.
  - xeromal 2y ago
    Contrary to apartment buildings where you have to go inside to your unit and there's not a great place to hang out and meet people
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Good ones will have a cafe, bar, etc on the bottom
  - 2y ago
codingmoney 2y ago
I agree with your points about the challenges in both suburban and urban environments. I think the design of public spaces also plays a significant role. Intentional design can help overcome some of these challenges and foster more impromptu social interactions.
Suppafly 2y ago
>Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Sure, but they are a lot more setup for walking dogs and casual walks and bike rides with your family and friends. The version of stoop coffee in my neighborhood is people walking their dogs and then stopping to chat. That and leaning on their fence talking to their neighbors.
m463 2y ago
> to avoid being seen well, there's also security, physical containment of your pet/children. I think of Frost's "Good fences make good neighbors"
badc0ffee 2y ago
In my city, the only places I see neighbours gathering on their front porches is in prewar neighbourhoods with single family style homes (many actually split into apartments). These houses have narrow lots, a porch right up to the sidewalk, and are on narrow streets. Newer neighbourhoods don't have that magic combination - even when the lots are narrow and there is no garage in the front, there is always a setback, a useless front yard, and more often than not no porch (or a "vestigial" porch that's too shallow to use comfortably). Editing to add: The old neighborhoods are nearly always on a grid of streets, where every street has passers by. Newer neighbourhoods will have hierarchical streets that include crescents and cul de sacs, which connect to nothing and have nobody just passing through (although that does seem to be changing in the newest neighbourhoods).
lynx97 2y ago
Haha, when I finished that paragraph of yours, before clicking on the link, I thought of exactly the scene you linked :-)
abustamam 2y ago
I live in the burbs and I feel like almost everyone in the neighborhood has a dog. No matter what time I'm leaving my house, there's always someone walking their dog. Of course some times are busier than others, but I feel like dog walking itself can become a pretty good sense community. I don't have a dog though.

tptacek 2y ago

I live in an inner-ring suburb of Chicago (Oak Park) and stoop coffee would be much easier to do here than in San Francisco (where I lived many years ago). This is what my suburb looks like: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9014246,-87.791197,3a,75y,177.64h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp9IMOrbuL7PL0rGB6IbVlg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0%26panoid%3Dp9IMOrbuL7PL0rGB6IbVlg%26yaw%3D177.64!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9014246,-87.791197,3a,75y,17...

azdle 2y ago
There's no official definition of what the "the suburbs" means, but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. The area you linked looks to me more like an older "streetcar suburb", which I think most people would just call "the city".
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,355.27h,85.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.064239911907762%26panoid%3DrBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ%26yaw%3D355.2693897638008!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,3...
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      >That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. The front yard space and number of driveways in the Oak Park link also stuck out to me.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        This is the Chicago block I grew up on. It's less dense than Oak Park. It's easy find blocks like it elsewhere in Chicago. Jeff Park in Chicago and Oak Park are basically clones of each other. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,177.53h,86.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.922534802027684%26panoid%3DprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw%26yaw%3D177.53094509832968!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,1... This is really what most of Chicago looks like (modulo economic conditions in the different neighborhoods --- they're not all this upscale). It's a city of neighborhoods. Most of the streetscapes that jump to mind about Chicago, if you don't live here, are places people basically don't live.
- oldandboring 2y ago
  Agree. Lots of US cities have neighborhoods like this outside of the downtown business districts. Even in NYC, famous for concrete-jungle apartment dwelling, you find this in Staten Island and in parts of Queens.
  - ascagnel_ 2y ago
    It's the same if you go west -- Hudson County, NJ, is mostly neighborhoods that were designed as streetcar suburbs if you measure by land area.
    - oldandboring 2y ago
      Yup. Sacramento has lots of this. LA county. Boise, Salt Lake City. List goes on.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  we each can only rely on our own experiences, but mine don't agree with you. suburbs in the US northeast have sidewalks. most of LA looks like a suburb to a nor'easter. No sidewalk? rural.
- lolinder 2y ago
  > but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. Define people? When most people I know say suburb they mean this: You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. I'm not at all sure what the utility is of a using a definition of suburb that excludes most of the not-high-density but not-rural US and only counts the absolute worst-designed spaces. It just means we're all talking past each other, with some of us saying "not all suburbs are terrible" and others insisting that suburbs are by definition terrible and anything that isn't terrible isn't a suburb. It's a bit of a True Scotsman fallacy and doesn't make for very useful dialog.
  - throwaway894345 2y ago
    I mean, you’re making the same sort of NTS argument here, aren’t you? > Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. Without defining what constitutes a suburb, how can you argue that most are good? Your argument hinges on your own definition of suburb IMHO. I’m not sure what the right answer is, but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs, but in any case it probably doesn’t hurt to be more precise about what we are praising or criticizing.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      No, I'm not, because I'm not saying that what you are identifying as a suburb isn't a suburb, I'm saying it's not representative of all suburbs. I provide a perfectly valid definition: > You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Since my definition is broader it's less susceptible to NTS fallacies. What you identify as a suburb is a suburb but it is not all suburbs. > but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs Even this is too broad to sweepingly say all suburbs are bad. I've lived in 5 different suburban neighborhoods as an adult, 4 of which were developed post-war, and all had sidewalks and plenty of walking around and neighborly interaction.
emseetech 2y ago
Oak Park as "the suburbs" is of a bygone era. If all suburbs were like Oak Park, nobody would complain about the suburbs.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I agree, and outside of Fly.io the thing I work hardest on is advocating for more density here; we're slowly transforming into Winnetka (if you're not a Chicago person, Winnetka is the John Hughes suburb you have in your head when people say things like "suburbs are nothing like the city"). Thankfully, we have a board consensus that has us pointed in the general direction of eliminating single-family zoning, allowing as-of-right 3- and 4-flats everywhere in the Village.
hugs 2y ago
hey neighbor :) we should totally do this in oak park. oak parkers already kinda do "stoop coffee", but usually only twice a year during a pre-planned block party. i could see this expanded to something a little more frequent, like maybe sunday mornings from memorial day to labor day.
- kirtakat 2y ago
  I'm amused to see so many of my neighbors on here - we could do a Hacker News Stoop at one of the coffee shops (Whirlwind is my regular, but it's not like any of the ones in OP are hard to get to!)
  - tptacek 2y ago
    'dhosek is also an Oak Parker. My thing since I moved houses a couple years ago is just hanging out on the porch, and I'm probably just going to start telling people when I'm going to be out there and inviting everyone to just come over.
  - hugs 2y ago
    yes!
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
Oak Park is not what anyone thinks of as a suburb. It's like pretending downtown Evanston is a suburb of Chicago.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Downtown Evanston is a suburb of Chicago.
avgDev 2y ago
If you haven't tried already, you need to try Sen Sushi, if you like sushi. That place is amazing.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Sen was a lifeline during the pandemic when going into the city for Japanese stopped being an option. One of the better Oak Park restaurants, in a suburb that is not exactly known for great restaurants. (shh don't tell anybody i said that)
  - kirtakat 2y ago
    I'd like to argue with you, but yeah - as much as I love OP, the restaurants are usually just okay
Suppafly 2y ago
I live in a big city in central Illinois, and we have neighborhoods like that in the city. It's hard for people outside to understand that I have suburban style neighborhood but I could walk to the DMV.
bloomingeek 2y ago
My wife and I, several years ago, stayed in an Oak Park hotel while visiting Chicago. There was a sort of food festival we happened upon and everyone was extremely friendly. As we rode the el train in, we were fascinated by the view of the closed Brachs factory.
bryan_w 2y ago
Those aren't suburbs, this is a suburb: https://maps.app.goo.gl/iS3Zi4CT1vnWkD5P7?g_st=ac https://maps.app.goo.gl/iS3Zi4CT1vnWkD5P7?g_st=ac
- gonzobonzo 2y ago
  Looking around the neighborhood, I'm seeing sidewalks on many of those streets, paved paths along public green spaces that run between the houses, multiple apartment buildings and a retirement center. Looking at the map, there also appear to be trails through the woods leading to a nearby sports center that's a 5 minute walk away, as well as a nearby bakery.
senderista 2y ago
When I lived in Canaryville (South Side neighborhood of Chicago) in the late 90s, people regularly sat on their porches and drank coffee.
amendegree 2y ago
Lol this is the most chicago looking chicago that has ever chicagoed. I clicked the link before really registering the comment, and was confused why I was looking at a random Chicago neighborhood. While I do like the way chicago neighborhoods are set up (especially the space between houses and general greenery) I think the compactness that SF has creates more opportunity for interaction. That being said, we did have this sorta thing on my block during covid times (once ppl stopped caring abt the social distancing and mask nonsense) but then the main families that did this moved away to bigger houses (as their families grew) and now it’s basically dead as there wasn’t a lot of intention behind it like the OP clearly has.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I mean, morally, Oak Park should be a part of Chicago.

mcculley 2y ago

Suburbs can also be hostile to pedestrians. In many designs, neighbors only see each other when one or both is inside of a car.

wglb 2y ago
When I lived in Ann Arbor, after going to work with a very green sky, I came home to a very weird sound. Quickly figured out that power was out and the weird sound was neighbors sitting on their front stoop talking.
RHSeeger 2y ago
Where I am in the suburbs, all the dogs know each other, because most of them are on invisible fence lots and they all visit every other dog when on a walk. And it's common for the owner to come out and say hi, too. That being said, I know some of my neighbors by their dog's name ("That's Taj's dad").
bluGill 2y ago
Suburbs are not hostile to pedestrians. They are hostile to getting anyplace on foot so cars are common. However they are great places to walk for exercise and many people who live there do that. (see the sibling comment about walking the dog)
- mcculley 2y ago
  My experience with suburbs is different from yours. I have lived in places where walking is downright dangerous because the architecture is oriented around cars and the drivers are not accustomed to yielding to pedestrians. Many homes are designed such that the inhabitants rarely use the front door, using only the garage.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    That doesn't sound like suburbs I know. The streets are so empty you can safely walk down the middle of them most of the time. People don't, but you could. (kids used to play baseball/basketball in the streets, stopping play when cars come). Of course to get anywhere you need to leave and so it is never far for a major road that is dangerous to be near.

eweise 2y ago

Suburbia houses are usually right next to each other. Densely populated cities stack housing so you have to go down to get out. I've found that its much easier to meeting people in single family homes than five level flats. In any case, the US even in cities, is not set up for gatherings like it is in Europe where there are large spaces people go to socialize.

xattt 2y ago

This is the entire thesis of Jane Jacobs’ work: urban living works because of friction-by-design. Inadvertent interactions between people you see every day build a sense of community over time — the “sidewalk ballet”. I always wondered what she would have thought about her ideas in the context of COVID.

palijer 2y ago
I think we're a long way off from the communities when Jane Jacobs lived. An except that I frequently think about, I can't even fathom in a large city in the current era, and not because technology has solved the key problem. >Joe Cornacchia, who keeps the delicatessen, usually has a dozen or so keys at a time for handing out like this. He has a special drawer for them. >Now why do I, and many others, select Joe as a logical custodian for keys? Because we trust him, first, to be a respon sible custodian, but equally important because we know that he combines a feeling of good will with a feeling of no personal responsibility about our private affairs. Joe considers it no con cern of his whom we choose to permit in our places and why. Around on the other side of our block, people leave their keys at a Spanish grocery. On the other side of Joe's block, people leave them at the candy store. Down a block they leave them at the coffee shop, and a few hundred feet around the corner from that, in a barber shop. Around one corner from two fashionable blocks of town houses and apartments in the Upper East Side, people leave their keys in a butcher shop and a bookshop; around another corner they leave them in a cleaner's and a drug store. >In unfashionable East Harlem keys are left with at least one florist, in bakeries, in luncheonettes, in Spanish and Italian groceries.
- wetmore 2y ago
  This still happens in my experience, I've picked up keys from friends and Airbnb hosts via a local business in the past few years.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    But there is usually a code with some app and all of the social aspects have been removed. It’s not much different than being a higher scale realtor key box.

jll29 2y ago

San Francisco is a great city for that, because it is very walkable (if you have the energy to manage its steep hills). There is a close connection between urban architecture and whether or not community building can take place, and sadly, many places are not like it. Kunstler's TED talk is a fantastic way to become more aware of that topic: https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_the_ghastly_tragedy_of_the_suburbs https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_the_ghastly_... His thesis is some of the US must be torn down to rebuild it in a friendlier community-enabling way. Curiously, to the OP's "stoop coffee" topic, he already recognized the communicative potential/value of the space in front of houses, and he points out that old European cities "got that right" (and having a central market square, too).

lolinder 2y ago

> Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Houses laid out in a way that you're more likely to drink your coffee on your back patio surrounded by a fence or hedges to avoid being seen. This has not been my experience in the surburbs. A typical suburban home has both spaces: a front yard/patio and a back yard/patio. If anything the physical constraints are substantially more conducive to hanging out out front than what I'm seeing in these photos here—people in the suburbs have some amount of space that they actually own in front of their home, they don't have to occupy the sidewalk. As OP said, which one people choose to use depends on the personality of the individual, not the layout of the space. For example: our last four homes, like every home in each neighborhood, have had both, and I always prefer to be out back while my wife loves being out front interacting with the neighbors as they walk by (which, yes, they have regularly done in all four neighborhoods!).

jacobolus 2y ago
It’s easier to sit out in the suburbs, but the layout and infrastructure don’t generally encourage walking around, so there are a lot fewer neighbors walking past.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Fewer, sure, but not none. 5-10 people per evening isn't bad, and that's pretty typical for a nice evening in each of those neighborhoods.
- xeromal 2y ago
  Contrary to apartment buildings where you have to go inside to your unit and there's not a great place to hang out and meet people
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Good ones will have a cafe, bar, etc on the bottom
- 2y ago

codingmoney 2y ago

I agree with your points about the challenges in both suburban and urban environments. I think the design of public spaces also plays a significant role. Intentional design can help overcome some of these challenges and foster more impromptu social interactions.

Suppafly 2y ago

>Suburbs often have physical constraints with the way houses are laid out making this "stoop coffee" approach more difficult, if anything. Sure, but they are a lot more setup for walking dogs and casual walks and bike rides with your family and friends. The version of stoop coffee in my neighborhood is people walking their dogs and then stopping to chat. That and leaning on their fence talking to their neighbors.

m463 2y ago

> to avoid being seen well, there's also security, physical containment of your pet/children. I think of Frost's "Good fences make good neighbors"

badc0ffee 2y ago

In my city, the only places I see neighbours gathering on their front porches is in prewar neighbourhoods with single family style homes (many actually split into apartments). These houses have narrow lots, a porch right up to the sidewalk, and are on narrow streets. Newer neighbourhoods don't have that magic combination - even when the lots are narrow and there is no garage in the front, there is always a setback, a useless front yard, and more often than not no porch (or a "vestigial" porch that's too shallow to use comfortably). Editing to add: The old neighborhoods are nearly always on a grid of streets, where every street has passers by. Newer neighbourhoods will have hierarchical streets that include crescents and cul de sacs, which connect to nothing and have nobody just passing through (although that does seem to be changing in the newest neighbourhoods).

lynx97 2y ago

Haha, when I finished that paragraph of yours, before clicking on the link, I thought of exactly the scene you linked :-)

abustamam 2y ago

I live in the burbs and I feel like almost everyone in the neighborhood has a dog. No matter what time I'm leaving my house, there's always someone walking their dog. Of course some times are busier than others, but I feel like dog walking itself can become a pretty good sense community. I don't have a dog though.