4 ms·

And the European equivalents of Tesla and Spacex's sucesses are where exactly? Paypal? X even? I am totally not hardcore, I value my free time, but driving th

And the European equivalents of Tesla and Spacex's sucesses are where exactly? Paypal? X even? I am totally not hardcore, I value my free time, but driving the staff like this seems to have worked very well for Musk's companies.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Paypal is not some monument of success (how much did Adam Neumann make from WeWork?), nor is X, he just bought Twitter by borrowing against his Tesla shares at an inflated valuation (inflated by sentiment and hype). Is he good at slave driving people who mostly care about mission? Yes. Does that mean it is what we want to optimize for at scale? I argue no. Important to be mindful what we are and what is worth optimizing for collectively and how that changes over time. If I drive my workers to various flavors (emotional, physical, etc) of failure to succeed economically, are you going to look up to me? If so, you've failed the litmus test. Progress is nice, but so is a reasonable balance for our short existence on this rock. Be Woz, not Jobs or Musk. (high empathy human, early TSLA investor, own Teslas, know people at SpaceX, etc)
- damnitbuilds 2y ago
  You did not answer my question. If Europe wants to be "more internal[ly] stable and international[ly] competitive", then its 40-hour-per-week, 5-weeks-holiday-per-year companies have to compete with Tesla, Spacex, Paypal, X etc. And they are clearly failing to do so.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Europe has SEPA for instant value transfer, they do not need paypal. AT Protocol can replace X, no need for Europe to have their own X ("protocols, not platforms"). Europe can eventually build EVs faster and/or better (~20 moving parts in a drivetrain) and improved space vehicles when they're ready, they're not trying to live on Mars. What has US tech built that Europe needs? Europe has services and great quality of life, the US has performance art capitalism paperclip maximizing for shareholder returns and is a third world country [1] [2] [3], broadly speaking. The race is not what you think it is. What are you building for? To just keep grinding or building? Or for people to live happy, healthy lives at scale? Engineering is fun, and leads to progress, but it is a means to an end, not the point of life. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ https://worldhappiness.report/ [2] https://dashboards.sdgindex.org/rankings https://dashboards.sdgindex.org/rankings [3] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-owns-americas-wealth/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-o...
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      > Europe can eventually build EVs Bosch has been building EV’s for literal years. Just because they’re selling them as parts doesn’t mean they’re incapable.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I don't disagree with this (love Bosch except my dishwasher IoT annoyances), but OP believes you need to be Tesla or BYD to be "successful." You can always succeed if you get to define success. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and life is meant to be lived, not brutish and short grinding for silly KPIs.
    - damnitbuilds 2y ago
      "What has US tech built that Europe needs?" Oh, come on. And you are confusing personal happiness with company success. Europe prioritises the former, at the expense of the latter.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        If you believe in optimizing for company success at a macro level from a mental model perspective, why are we talking? Go grind and be prepared to make peace how you wasted your life on your deathbed. I have attempted to show you a different perspective, whether you internalize it is up to you. I've been down that road, and caught myself in time with some life left to be lived. Never stop asking "why?" OODA loop style. > Oh, come on. I stand by my assertion.
        damnitbuilds 2y ago
        You are confusing personal happiness with company success.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        You seem to get it [1], so I'm not sure why we're arguing? I wish you the very best. Stay curious and openminded. Don't work too hard, we're all dead eventually, enjoy the ride. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43471675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43471675 ("Even if I was programming Starship's flight computers, I would miss my family too much to work more than 40 hours per week. Regardless of really believing in their work, people want to have time with their loved ones.")
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    I’m fairly certain this is because nobody feels the need to, combined with a dose of old money.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Old money is a toxic accretion of capital: because it optimizes for "not losing" as opposed to "maximally investing" There's a reason the British industrial revolution was funded by new, sugar/slave-trade money -- because it went to people open to investing in this new, weird steam power thing.
  - dathinab 2y ago
    this is a pointless argument as close to all US mega cops have been quasi subventioned until they became monopolies, not sure how you expect a proper competition there (specifically subventioned by a few very wealthy entities, not the state). in addition many of them did end up where they are by taking advantage of a major technological change, while being quasi subventioned, while being in a huge country which has until recently exported it's culture and tech, while systematically breaking all kinds of (non employee protection related) laws and regulations (including US laws/regulations, through seldomly with consequences in the US) there is little which indicates that mistreating your employees was overly relevant for them to get where they are in most cases actually it's even the opposite to some degree, multiple of the US mega corps have been known to be quite good employers (e.g. MS, Google). Microsoft was also one of the first huge companies which tried out a 32h week in some of their offices (and the results of that study indicated that it was leading to improvements). and in general I think most people have no issues with highly payed highly skilled people "working hard like crazy" if - it's well payed (i.e. you work "crazily hard" a few years and then can lay back for years after - it's fully free of your choice to end up there - you are also fully free to leave if you realize it's hitting your health to hard Like company founders working "crazily hard" at the start of their journey is as normal in the EU as it's in the US. And paying people which work "crazily hard" extra, often in form of annual Bonus payments, is also in some markets not that uncommon in the EU. Also jobs which people very often don't do for more then a few years, because it's just not healthy. But what Musk is pursing is so far beyond that on the unhealthy spectrum. And a more normal employees has to be able to work their job without larger gap for like what 50 years at least. That just isn't compatible with "working crazily hard". But Musk is just an extreme example of what you see in in general more in the US: Indirectly force people to work harder then long term substainable and when it start causing chronic issues take "medicine" to fix it. And then be surprised if your country has pain killer/drug addiction epidemic which doesn't just affect the people which did fall through society but like all levels of society. And wrt. internal stability, have you looked at the US recently!? It's more unstable then it ever has been since the civil war.
dboreham 2y ago
PayPal isn't necessary in Europe because banks are properly regulated and hence provide the same service for free.
- SirMaster 2y ago
  You can pay at most online websites straight from your bank account in Europe?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - prybak 2y ago
    Yes, at least in Poland. You can either use Blik (mobile payments integrated with your bank account) or get redirected to your bank website for fast wire transfer.
  - tjelen 2y ago
    Umm, yes? Not sure about the rest of Europe, but here in Czechia most of merchants have a direct payment method based on QR code. Basically: 1) you select your bank at the checkout; 2) you're redirected to the bank's payment page with a QR code; 3) you scan the code from your banking app and confirm it; 4) the bank redirects back the merchants page with the payment status confirmed/declined. No payment processor involved and the money goes straight from your account to merchant's account.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      > the money goes straight from your account to merchant's account. For the financial systems version of straight away (2-3 business days, weekends & holidays excluded) ;)
  - DonHopkins 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - 2y ago
stephenhuey 2y ago
Confinity created its PayPal product in 1999 and Musk's company got merged into Confinity in 2000 because Thiel said they were both working crazy long hours and it would be more beneficial for everyone to join forces into a monopoly instead of compete with one another. Then Musk got kicked out of the company because they didn't think he was doing a good job, and he was fortunate to benefit financially when they sold to eBay. So it's a pretty classic case of survivorship bias, and the fact that he invested into an already innovative electric car company does not mean his taskmaster leanings are assuredly the key to success. For every one of Musk's companies, there are countless others enjoying a healthy amount of profit without the excessive hours.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  The How I Built This episodes with Max Levchin are a good listen. https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-paypal-max-levchin-part-1-of-2/ https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-pay... https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/affirm-max-levchin-part-2-of-2/id1150510297?i=1000566031270 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/affirm-max-levchin-par...
otikik 2y ago
Yeah but we don't have a Musk either. One compensates the other.
FireBeyond 2y ago
Musk's operational involvement in PayPal was 4 months (though he remained on the Board for a while, IIRC). He didn't create it, it was a (pre-release) working thing when his company (which was failing at building an online bank) merged. He was made CEO, and spent his tenure trying to throw away the working app because it was Java on Solaris for ASP because that's what he knew. Four months in, he gets married. The BoD attends his wedding on the Saturday, and on the Monday morning when he leaves for his honeymoon, they fire him in absentia. Not "other priorities", "family time", but "fired on your honeymoon". Since then, most of Musk's "contribution" to PayPal has been cashing the dividend checks.
consteval 2y ago
It works of course but it’s a short term solution. Because you’re trading off long term success for success right now. It’s like a cash advance on a credit card. Great for getting 500 bucks in your pocket, but the interest is steep. People, like most resources, can be extended past their maximum value at the cost of longevity.
root_axis 2y ago
Working long hours is not a sign of success, it means things don't get done on a normal schedule so everyone has to bust their ass to meet the deadline. Working this way in perpetuity is wasteful and totally stupid.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Paypal is not some monument of success (how much did Adam Neumann make from WeWork?), nor is X, he just bought Twitter by borrowing against his Tesla shares at an inflated valuation (inflated by sentiment and hype). Is he good at slave driving people who mostly care about mission? Yes. Does that mean it is what we want to optimize for at scale? I argue no. Important to be mindful what we are and what is worth optimizing for collectively and how that changes over time. If I drive my workers to various flavors (emotional, physical, etc) of failure to succeed economically, are you going to look up to me? If so, you've failed the litmus test. Progress is nice, but so is a reasonable balance for our short existence on this rock. Be Woz, not Jobs or Musk. (high empathy human, early TSLA investor, own Teslas, know people at SpaceX, etc)

damnitbuilds 2y ago
You did not answer my question. If Europe wants to be "more internal[ly] stable and international[ly] competitive", then its 40-hour-per-week, 5-weeks-holiday-per-year companies have to compete with Tesla, Spacex, Paypal, X etc. And they are clearly failing to do so.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Europe has SEPA for instant value transfer, they do not need paypal. AT Protocol can replace X, no need for Europe to have their own X ("protocols, not platforms"). Europe can eventually build EVs faster and/or better (~20 moving parts in a drivetrain) and improved space vehicles when they're ready, they're not trying to live on Mars. What has US tech built that Europe needs? Europe has services and great quality of life, the US has performance art capitalism paperclip maximizing for shareholder returns and is a third world country [1] [2] [3], broadly speaking. The race is not what you think it is. What are you building for? To just keep grinding or building? Or for people to live happy, healthy lives at scale? Engineering is fun, and leads to progress, but it is a means to an end, not the point of life. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ https://worldhappiness.report/ [2] https://dashboards.sdgindex.org/rankings https://dashboards.sdgindex.org/rankings [3] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-owns-americas-wealth/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-o...
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    > Europe can eventually build EVs Bosch has been building EV’s for literal years. Just because they’re selling them as parts doesn’t mean they’re incapable.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I don't disagree with this (love Bosch except my dishwasher IoT annoyances), but OP believes you need to be Tesla or BYD to be "successful." You can always succeed if you get to define success. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and life is meant to be lived, not brutish and short grinding for silly KPIs.
  - damnitbuilds 2y ago
    "What has US tech built that Europe needs?" Oh, come on. And you are confusing personal happiness with company success. Europe prioritises the former, at the expense of the latter.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      If you believe in optimizing for company success at a macro level from a mental model perspective, why are we talking? Go grind and be prepared to make peace how you wasted your life on your deathbed. I have attempted to show you a different perspective, whether you internalize it is up to you. I've been down that road, and caught myself in time with some life left to be lived. Never stop asking "why?" OODA loop style. > Oh, come on. I stand by my assertion.
      - damnitbuilds 2y ago
        You are confusing personal happiness with company success.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        You seem to get it [1], so I'm not sure why we're arguing? I wish you the very best. Stay curious and openminded. Don't work too hard, we're all dead eventually, enjoy the ride. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43471675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43471675 ("Even if I was programming Starship's flight computers, I would miss my family too much to work more than 40 hours per week. Regardless of really believing in their work, people want to have time with their loved ones.")
- Aeolun 2y ago
  I’m fairly certain this is because nobody feels the need to, combined with a dose of old money.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Old money is a toxic accretion of capital: because it optimizes for "not losing" as opposed to "maximally investing" There's a reason the British industrial revolution was funded by new, sugar/slave-trade money -- because it went to people open to investing in this new, weird steam power thing.
- dathinab 2y ago
  this is a pointless argument as close to all US mega cops have been quasi subventioned until they became monopolies, not sure how you expect a proper competition there (specifically subventioned by a few very wealthy entities, not the state). in addition many of them did end up where they are by taking advantage of a major technological change, while being quasi subventioned, while being in a huge country which has until recently exported it's culture and tech, while systematically breaking all kinds of (non employee protection related) laws and regulations (including US laws/regulations, through seldomly with consequences in the US) there is little which indicates that mistreating your employees was overly relevant for them to get where they are in most cases actually it's even the opposite to some degree, multiple of the US mega corps have been known to be quite good employers (e.g. MS, Google). Microsoft was also one of the first huge companies which tried out a 32h week in some of their offices (and the results of that study indicated that it was leading to improvements). and in general I think most people have no issues with highly payed highly skilled people "working hard like crazy" if - it's well payed (i.e. you work "crazily hard" a few years and then can lay back for years after - it's fully free of your choice to end up there - you are also fully free to leave if you realize it's hitting your health to hard Like company founders working "crazily hard" at the start of their journey is as normal in the EU as it's in the US. And paying people which work "crazily hard" extra, often in form of annual Bonus payments, is also in some markets not that uncommon in the EU. Also jobs which people very often don't do for more then a few years, because it's just not healthy. But what Musk is pursing is so far beyond that on the unhealthy spectrum. And a more normal employees has to be able to work their job without larger gap for like what 50 years at least. That just isn't compatible with "working crazily hard". But Musk is just an extreme example of what you see in in general more in the US: Indirectly force people to work harder then long term substainable and when it start causing chronic issues take "medicine" to fix it. And then be surprised if your country has pain killer/drug addiction epidemic which doesn't just affect the people which did fall through society but like all levels of society. And wrt. internal stability, have you looked at the US recently!? It's more unstable then it ever has been since the civil war.

dboreham 2y ago

PayPal isn't necessary in Europe because banks are properly regulated and hence provide the same service for free.

SirMaster 2y ago
You can pay at most online websites straight from your bank account in Europe?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- prybak 2y ago
  Yes, at least in Poland. You can either use Blik (mobile payments integrated with your bank account) or get redirected to your bank website for fast wire transfer.
- tjelen 2y ago
  Umm, yes? Not sure about the rest of Europe, but here in Czechia most of merchants have a direct payment method based on QR code. Basically: 1) you select your bank at the checkout; 2) you're redirected to the bank's payment page with a QR code; 3) you scan the code from your banking app and confirm it; 4) the bank redirects back the merchants page with the payment status confirmed/declined. No payment processor involved and the money goes straight from your account to merchant's account.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    > the money goes straight from your account to merchant's account. For the financial systems version of straight away (2-3 business days, weekends & holidays excluded) ;)
- DonHopkins 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - 2y ago

stephenhuey 2y ago

Confinity created its PayPal product in 1999 and Musk's company got merged into Confinity in 2000 because Thiel said they were both working crazy long hours and it would be more beneficial for everyone to join forces into a monopoly instead of compete with one another. Then Musk got kicked out of the company because they didn't think he was doing a good job, and he was fortunate to benefit financially when they sold to eBay. So it's a pretty classic case of survivorship bias, and the fact that he invested into an already innovative electric car company does not mean his taskmaster leanings are assuredly the key to success. For every one of Musk's companies, there are countless others enjoying a healthy amount of profit without the excessive hours.

CharlieDigital 2y ago
The How I Built This episodes with Max Levchin are a good listen. https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-paypal-max-levchin-part-1-of-2/ https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-pay... https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/affirm-max-levchin-part-2-of-2/id1150510297?i=1000566031270 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/affirm-max-levchin-par...

otikik 2y ago

Yeah but we don't have a Musk either. One compensates the other.

FireBeyond 2y ago

Musk's operational involvement in PayPal was 4 months (though he remained on the Board for a while, IIRC). He didn't create it, it was a (pre-release) working thing when his company (which was failing at building an online bank) merged. He was made CEO, and spent his tenure trying to throw away the working app because it was Java on Solaris for ASP because that's what he knew. Four months in, he gets married. The BoD attends his wedding on the Saturday, and on the Monday morning when he leaves for his honeymoon, they fire him in absentia. Not "other priorities", "family time", but "fired on your honeymoon". Since then, most of Musk's "contribution" to PayPal has been cashing the dividend checks.

consteval 2y ago

It works of course but it’s a short term solution. Because you’re trading off long term success for success right now. It’s like a cash advance on a credit card. Great for getting 500 bucks in your pocket, but the interest is steep. People, like most resources, can be extended past their maximum value at the cost of longevity.

root_axis 2y ago

Working long hours is not a sign of success, it means things don't get done on a normal schedule so everyone has to bust their ass to meet the deadline. Working this way in perpetuity is wasteful and totally stupid.