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I see the keynote next year; 'vibing isn't coding isn't programming isn't ...; a pyramid of shite that sometimes works a bit'. I am happy Dijkstra doesn't have

I see the keynote next year; 'vibing isn't coding isn't programming isn't ...; a pyramid of shite that sometimes works a bit'. I am happy Dijkstra doesn't have to see this; he was angry in the 80s in my parents living room; I cannot even imagine what he would be with 'vibe coding'.

tmpz22 2y ago
Vibe coding is analogous to programming while high with identical results.
- baq 2y ago
  Vape coding, maybe. Vibe coding react interfaces for backoffice tools is very real, speaking first hand.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    Is it though; what does the term mean; are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? Or are you just using it to help coding. Vibe coding would be the former and while it sometimes works, it doesn't in many cases, including LoB tools if the backoffice is large and complex enough. Unless you have some interesting tooling to help out, in which case it is possible, but that's not really vibe coding at the moment.
    - ramesh31 2y ago
      >Is it though; what does the term mean; are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? Or are you just using it to help coding. Vibe coding would be the former and while it sometimes works, it doesn't in many cases, including LoB tools if the backoffice is large and complex enough. Unless you have some interesting tooling to help out, in which case it is possible, but that's not really vibe coding at the moment. I spent 10 years of my life as an FE with a total obsession for the field, and took huge pride in my hand tuned HTML/CSS interfaces and well architected JS. I was "the UI guy" that anyone would come to with questions, as it was my expertise and what I loved to do all day. Now I'll never write a line of that stuff ever again as long as I live. I do not write code anymore. Everything goes through an agent. Occasionally I will flip a config value here or there, or clean up some leftover logs or whatever, but I don't type code at all anymore. My job is now to guide the agent and review its' PRs. Yet, I now easily have the productivity of an entire team from a few years ago. You can keep your head in the sand over this stuff for a little while longer maybe, but you will be completely obsolete if you don't adapt soon.
      - anonzzzies 2y ago
        I am aware, I just don't see this. I too write a lot of code like this, but the LLMs cannot figure out many things. If you are on that track, it will sometimes just loop forever. But sure, most humans are pretty bad too so many fail at the same things the llms do and then the llms are a lot cheaper.
        whatamidoingyo 2y ago
        Most of the time, yes. But there are certain times where I prompt an AI to build X, and it delivers a seriously neat project. It's not all of the time, though. It has only happened like twice where I saw the full power of LLMs. I don't understand it. It's like there's a switch to dumb these things down, but if you catch them at the right time, they will blow your mind. But yes, most times, they are horrible. Or maybe I'm just crazy, i dunno.
        guappa 2y ago
        I think he writes HTML pages and some JS occasionally.
      - guappa 2y ago
        Yeah not every developer does html templates for wordpress. Of course if your job is extremely simple and generic, AI can kinda figure it out.
        ramesh31 2y ago
        >"Yeah not every developer does html templates for wordpress. Of course if your job is extremely simple and generic, AI can kinda figure it out." Keep telling yourself this. It's only hurting you. I think anyone who isn't working heavily with agentic systems right now has absolutely no clue about the revolutionary things that have happened in the last six months or so. Our industry is going to be in a completely different universe this time next year.
        anonzzzies 2y ago
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      I now have 5 "vibe coded" programs in our production chain at my non-tech company. Some have been running for over two years now. I think what tech companies miss is that customers buy these expensive feature packed software suites and then use 3% of the functionality. Cutting edge LLM's, and especially the newer thinking ones, are incredibly talented at creating programs that offer 3% the functionality of software suites. Just a few weeks ago we skipped out on a $1k/mo CAD package because claude wrote a program with a simple GUI that enabled our engineers to do the one task we needed the custom CAD software for (Manually creating part placement files from 90's era manufacturing files).
      - anonzzzies 2y ago
        I think throwaway programs are fine here; you make them, ship them and that's it. But i'm quite sure you didn't vibe code them; you used an LLM to write a lot of code but helped it along; vibe coders cannot do that because they don't actually understand what the LLM did. It just worked, or didn't work, so they copy back and forth errors (if there are any) until it works. Using LLMs to assist writing software, sure, we do that every day and it ships. But if we don't help the LLMs when they are stuck, they don't get unstuck. They cannot solve some surprisingly trivial things which vibe coders will be stuck with.
    - baq 2y ago
      > are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? more or less this, yes. a quick glance, maybe skimming through a tricky part. otherwise, if it works, it ships.
- latexr 2y ago
  At least if you’re programming high (or drunk) you get a different kind of fun and the next day you know you have to recheck your work. The one thing that bothers me about LLM coding¹ is that the vast majority of people doing it don’t understand the issues. Those who do check their work and believe everyone else also does are immensely naive and will one day be severely bitten² by bad unreviewed code written by an LLM. ¹ Not calling it “vibe coding” to not go into pedantic definition discussions. ² As will we all.
- ge96 2y ago
  Funny while getting high would make me creative in the past (draw) I could not do anything hard like writing logic, I also used to think my dumb ideas were good so yeah I don't do it anymore
frou_dh 2y ago
"Vibe coding" seems like one of those things where there's way more people complaining about the concept than there ever were people actually promoting it in the first place.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=vibe%20coding&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=vibe%20coding&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Yes, there are results for people saying "vibe coding" on HN. I don't feel like reading the ~500 or so mentions of it to tally which ones are people promoting it vs. which are people complaining about it. Do you have a summary of your results? The first page seems mostly to be people complaining.
    - intuitionist 2y ago
      you know you could probably put them into some kind of language model to tally promotion vs complaints you could probably even knock together a script to do that in fact you might be able to get a language model to knock together such a script with a bit of iteration
- api 2y ago
  > ... seems like one of those things where there's way more people complaining ... than there ever were people actually promoting it in the first place. The entire social and political discourse since around 2016.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  It's going to be rage bait at this point.
alabastervlog 2y ago
> he was angry in the 80s in my parents living room Yikes, how bad was your parents’ living room?
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  My father was a commercial guy (and a good programmer) who wanted to sell development services to companies, Dijkstra didn't really like this idea, especially if it was done in a way that badly educated (...) people would write not proven correct code was distributed to the clients, making the world worse.
  - desdenova 2y ago
    That's exactly what ended up happening.
  - jonnycat 2y ago
    Looking back, they were both right!
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    > wanted to sell development services to companies So he wanted to start a contracting service? Contractors are famous for writing piles of untested, spaghetti code that only kind of works but they've finished it by then and the contract is over. Then some poor sap gets stuck trying to maintain it. Probably one of the worse ways businesses acquire custom software.
    - anonzzzies 2y ago
      It is how most software is written and indeed, often badly. But how do 'businesses acquire custom software' otherwise? Most in house employees suck as well. So what's the other ways?
smusamashah 2y ago
What exactly was he angry at?
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  People writing software without proper foundations of logic and proofs. Which was by then quite 'common' (now it's normal of course).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
miroljub 2y ago
> a pyramid of shite Why do some people use such abominations like "shite" or "shoot" instead of just using "shit"? C'mon lads, everyone knows what you want to say, why not just say it?
- osigurdson 2y ago
  People can use whatever word they want.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Some people don't live in the US woooow... In the UK and especially certain parts, shite is the actual word to use. Shite is definitely not the same as gosh or shoot. It's (more) vulgar as shit but our own. I personally also don't like gosh or shoot as we all know what you mean, but this is not that case, look it up.
- dpassens 2y ago
  Shite isn't a euphemism like shoot, it's a synonym of shit.
- bena 2y ago
  I'd imagine he's British. "Shite" seems to be the spelling favored by the British. Much like arse/ass
  - voidUpdate 2y ago
    We use both, in different circumstances
- JimDabell 2y ago
  “Shite” isn’t a minced oath. It’s a different word to “shit” with a different etymology. Same as “feck” is a different word to “fuck”, even if they are used in the same way.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    That’s not true at least according to etymonline. Got a source?

tmpz22 2y ago

Vibe coding is analogous to programming while high with identical results.

baq 2y ago
Vape coding, maybe. Vibe coding react interfaces for backoffice tools is very real, speaking first hand.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Is it though; what does the term mean; are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? Or are you just using it to help coding. Vibe coding would be the former and while it sometimes works, it doesn't in many cases, including LoB tools if the backoffice is large and complex enough. Unless you have some interesting tooling to help out, in which case it is possible, but that's not really vibe coding at the moment.
  - ramesh31 2y ago
    >Is it though; what does the term mean; are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? Or are you just using it to help coding. Vibe coding would be the former and while it sometimes works, it doesn't in many cases, including LoB tools if the backoffice is large and complex enough. Unless you have some interesting tooling to help out, in which case it is possible, but that's not really vibe coding at the moment. I spent 10 years of my life as an FE with a total obsession for the field, and took huge pride in my hand tuned HTML/CSS interfaces and well architected JS. I was "the UI guy" that anyone would come to with questions, as it was my expertise and what I loved to do all day. Now I'll never write a line of that stuff ever again as long as I live. I do not write code anymore. Everything goes through an agent. Occasionally I will flip a config value here or there, or clean up some leftover logs or whatever, but I don't type code at all anymore. My job is now to guide the agent and review its' PRs. Yet, I now easily have the productivity of an entire team from a few years ago. You can keep your head in the sand over this stuff for a little while longer maybe, but you will be completely obsolete if you don't adapt soon.
    - anonzzzies 2y ago
      I am aware, I just don't see this. I too write a lot of code like this, but the LLMs cannot figure out many things. If you are on that track, it will sometimes just loop forever. But sure, most humans are pretty bad too so many fail at the same things the llms do and then the llms are a lot cheaper.
      - whatamidoingyo 2y ago
        Most of the time, yes. But there are certain times where I prompt an AI to build X, and it delivers a seriously neat project. It's not all of the time, though. It has only happened like twice where I saw the full power of LLMs. I don't understand it. It's like there's a switch to dumb these things down, but if you catch them at the right time, they will blow your mind. But yes, most times, they are horrible. Or maybe I'm just crazy, i dunno.
      - guappa 2y ago
        I think he writes HTML pages and some JS occasionally.
    - guappa 2y ago
      Yeah not every developer does html templates for wordpress. Of course if your job is extremely simple and generic, AI can kinda figure it out.
      - ramesh31 2y ago
        >"Yeah not every developer does html templates for wordpress. Of course if your job is extremely simple and generic, AI can kinda figure it out." Keep telling yourself this. It's only hurting you. I think anyone who isn't working heavily with agentic systems right now has absolutely no clue about the revolutionary things that have happened in the last six months or so. Our industry is going to be in a completely different universe this time next year.
        anonzzzies 2y ago
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    I now have 5 "vibe coded" programs in our production chain at my non-tech company. Some have been running for over two years now. I think what tech companies miss is that customers buy these expensive feature packed software suites and then use 3% of the functionality. Cutting edge LLM's, and especially the newer thinking ones, are incredibly talented at creating programs that offer 3% the functionality of software suites. Just a few weeks ago we skipped out on a $1k/mo CAD package because claude wrote a program with a simple GUI that enabled our engineers to do the one task we needed the custom CAD software for (Manually creating part placement files from 90's era manufacturing files).
    - anonzzzies 2y ago
      I think throwaway programs are fine here; you make them, ship them and that's it. But i'm quite sure you didn't vibe code them; you used an LLM to write a lot of code but helped it along; vibe coders cannot do that because they don't actually understand what the LLM did. It just worked, or didn't work, so they copy back and forth errors (if there are any) until it works. Using LLMs to assist writing software, sure, we do that every day and it ships. But if we don't help the LLMs when they are stuck, they don't get unstuck. They cannot solve some surprisingly trivial things which vibe coders will be stuck with.
  - baq 2y ago
    > are we talking to our computers, not reading anything and just judging the non-coder endresult? more or less this, yes. a quick glance, maybe skimming through a tricky part. otherwise, if it works, it ships.
latexr 2y ago
At least if you’re programming high (or drunk) you get a different kind of fun and the next day you know you have to recheck your work. The one thing that bothers me about LLM coding¹ is that the vast majority of people doing it don’t understand the issues. Those who do check their work and believe everyone else also does are immensely naive and will one day be severely bitten² by bad unreviewed code written by an LLM. ¹ Not calling it “vibe coding” to not go into pedantic definition discussions. ² As will we all.
ge96 2y ago
Funny while getting high would make me creative in the past (draw) I could not do anything hard like writing logic, I also used to think my dumb ideas were good so yeah I don't do it anymore

frou_dh 2y ago

"Vibe coding" seems like one of those things where there's way more people complaining about the concept than there ever were people actually promoting it in the first place.

anonzzzies 2y ago
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=vibe%20coding&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=vibe%20coding&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Yes, there are results for people saying "vibe coding" on HN. I don't feel like reading the ~500 or so mentions of it to tally which ones are people promoting it vs. which are people complaining about it. Do you have a summary of your results? The first page seems mostly to be people complaining.
  - intuitionist 2y ago
    you know you could probably put them into some kind of language model to tally promotion vs complaints you could probably even knock together a script to do that in fact you might be able to get a language model to knock together such a script with a bit of iteration
api 2y ago
> ... seems like one of those things where there's way more people complaining ... than there ever were people actually promoting it in the first place. The entire social and political discourse since around 2016.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
It's going to be rage bait at this point.

alabastervlog 2y ago

> he was angry in the 80s in my parents living room Yikes, how bad was your parents’ living room?

anonzzzies 2y ago
My father was a commercial guy (and a good programmer) who wanted to sell development services to companies, Dijkstra didn't really like this idea, especially if it was done in a way that badly educated (...) people would write not proven correct code was distributed to the clients, making the world worse.
- desdenova 2y ago
  That's exactly what ended up happening.
- jonnycat 2y ago
  Looking back, they were both right!
- eikenberry 2y ago
  > wanted to sell development services to companies So he wanted to start a contracting service? Contractors are famous for writing piles of untested, spaghetti code that only kind of works but they've finished it by then and the contract is over. Then some poor sap gets stuck trying to maintain it. Probably one of the worse ways businesses acquire custom software.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    It is how most software is written and indeed, often badly. But how do 'businesses acquire custom software' otherwise? Most in house employees suck as well. So what's the other ways?

smusamashah 2y ago

What exactly was he angry at?

anonzzzies 2y ago
People writing software without proper foundations of logic and proofs. Which was by then quite 'common' (now it's normal of course).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

miroljub 2y ago

> a pyramid of shite Why do some people use such abominations like "shite" or "shoot" instead of just using "shit"? C'mon lads, everyone knows what you want to say, why not just say it?

osigurdson 2y ago
People can use whatever word they want.
anonzzzies 2y ago
Some people don't live in the US woooow... In the UK and especially certain parts, shite is the actual word to use. Shite is definitely not the same as gosh or shoot. It's (more) vulgar as shit but our own. I personally also don't like gosh or shoot as we all know what you mean, but this is not that case, look it up.
dpassens 2y ago
Shite isn't a euphemism like shoot, it's a synonym of shit.
bena 2y ago
I'd imagine he's British. "Shite" seems to be the spelling favored by the British. Much like arse/ass
- voidUpdate 2y ago
  We use both, in different circumstances
JimDabell 2y ago
“Shite” isn’t a minced oath. It’s a different word to “shit” with a different etymology. Same as “feck” is a different word to “fuck”, even if they are used in the same way.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  That’s not true at least according to etymonline. Got a source?