4 ms·

The CRPG Renaissance, Part 5: Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate

72 points by doppp 2y ago

jmyeet 2y ago
I got my start with CRPGs playing Bard's Tale, all the SSI Gold Box games, Wizardry and then Ultima Underworld. I really miss the variety of CRPGs we used to have. I don't like real-time games. I like being able to chill playing turn-based games (including strategy games like Civ). I don't think I'm alone in that and it's one of those fundamental misunderstanding game publishers have: thinking players want "hard" games, which for a CRPG (or, rather, an ARPG) really means how fast you can react. But I really dislike the Bethesda CRPG model, which is really the only model left. I hate scaling content. It's lazy. I really dislike that in games like Skyrim you have to level efficiently or you get weaker (because of content scaling) and that forces you to do some non-fun things to optimize your levelling. I know a lot of people enjoyed the Fallout serivce. For me, the aesthetics killed it for me. A brown wasteland just isn't aesthetically pleasing as a fantasy environment. To contradict myself, I have to give special mention to Zelda: Breath of the Wild. I wish I could erase my memory to play that game for the first time again. It's not without its issues but the feeling you have of being in the world is virtually unmatched by any other game.
- ferguess_k 2y ago
  One thing I dislike the Bethesda games is that quests are too shallow. So many times, I wondered while playing the games, someone could put some extra love into some of the quests to make them much more in depth and more interesting. Alas, budget and time limited I guess.
  - beloch 2y ago
    A big part was being brave enough to make players put a little mental effort in. In Morrowind, a big part of gameplay was figuring out where you needed to go to progress in a quest. A NPC might say to go to a town, take the East road out, turn left at the lake, and proceed until you see a certain kind of tree. You actually needed to do all that just to find the next step of the quest. It felt incredibly immersive. In Skyrim and a lot of post-Skyrim games, you just take a direct path to the quest marker without even thinking about it. Quests in Skyrim often feel shallow because you put in almost no effort. It's a little skippable dialogue, a run across the mountains to a quest marker, kill something, loot something, and run to another quest marker for more optional dialogue. The dialogue in these quests often didn't even explain how you know where to go. Maybe the NPC puts a mark on your map, or maybe you're just psychic! Writers no longer had to care about giving directions, so they often didn't. Bethesda probably did this because players were complaining about getting lost in Morrowind. If a quest isn't carefully written and the world carefully designed, it is often easy for players to miss the mark. After Skyrim, quest makers became the norm in all sorts of RPG's. It reduced effort for developers and ensured players don't get lost. However, it may be the case that the frustration of getting lost and the triumph of finding your way are parts of a compelling role-playing experience. BG1 and Fallout 1/2 were both games where you could get badly lost and wander into areas that were way too tough for your character at the stage of the game you were currently in. Getting a little bit lost, a little bit in over your head, and stumbling upon something hidden was actually a lot of fun.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      +++++ on this. There are mods for Skyrim that remove the markers and other indicators while also rewriting any quest description that are insufficiently descriptive, and it just completely changes the game. Even more so if you remove fast travel. There are also mods that remove the scaling yet maintain a balanced world. Basically, Bethesda games need to be modded, and there are some absurdly high quality modding teams out there. But it's also weird because all of these mods sound like you're just beating yourself in the head, and perhaps we are. I remember a game development class I took, and one of the first things we did was define what game was. I thought it was quite stupid at the time, but in hindsight maybe the guy was onto something: "A series of unnecessary obstacles." And so it always sounds great to remove obstacles, but the more obstacles you remove, the less of a game you have left at the end of it all. For those of us who grew up in the Nintendo era I think none of us will ever forget Battle Toads, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Punch Out, and other such games where the entire games are basically about beating yourself in the head repeatedly, yet at the end of it all - it felt great!
    - snickerer 2y ago
      I totally feel that. I would love to play an RPG where I need to take notes. Where I fear to get lost in the wilderness if I take the wrong turn because I could get eaten by a horrible beast then. I mean, that's what real adventures are about, or not? The mystery of exploration. The need to navigate by markers in nature or even the sun. In a perfect world for me, game devs would add more dynamic and intelligent NPCs with their own agenda. I am bored by the feeling of Potemkin villages, where everything feels like it is designed to give you a smooth game experience and every NPC is standing there forever, just waiting for you.
    - ferguess_k 2y ago
      I think it's a bit more than "because players put in almost no effort" but I do agree that is a big factor. I'm probably nitpicking here, but I really hope they put a lot more thoughts into each quest. For example I remember one of the brotherhood tasks is to assassinate the Emperor, but it was a very disappointing task as far as I remember. Admittedly, removing the markers and such definitely helps a bit, but I can't help feeling that the game designers just wanted to pump as many quests into the games as possible, and call it a day. I'd rather have just half of the quests, but with each of them having more depth and require more thoughts.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    For decent time it really has not been about budget or time. Certainly not after say Skyrim and maybe including that. It is more so their game design philosophy and lack of talent in making more interesting things. In the end Bethesda makes worlds filled with small pastiches. And well with Starfield they even failed the filling part.
- janosett 2y ago
  Baldur’s Gate 3 is recent and very much doesn’t follow the Bethesda model! It’s also turn-based which was a big plus for me as well.
- Semaphor 2y ago
  I started with turn-based RPGs, Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny in my case (the original German version). I was a teen playing shooters when the RTwP craze happened and never really got into those, luckily there’s actually a pretty wide selection of TB CRPGs, nowadays. My absolute favorites are Owlcat’s Pathfinder games, BG3 is obviously the huge and popular one, Owlcat’s Rogue Trader for the WH40k crowds, but there are also tons of smaller niche games. I recently played "Skald: Against the Black Priory" [0] a pixel graphic retro-style RPG, and currently playing "Space Wreck" [1], a fallout inspired CRPG heavy on replayability, but there are many, many more. [0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069160/SKALD_Against_the_Black_Priory/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069160/SKALD_Against_the... [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/
  - iamacyborg 2y ago
    Rogue Trader really nailed a lot of the 40k atmosphere which was great. All the plebs on the ship are being too noisy, just cut out all their tongues.
  - tmtvl 2y ago
    Yeah, Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath are great. I also really enjoyed Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 (I especially liked 2, I believe others preferred 1), Tyranny, and Hare Brained Schemes' Shadowrun series (Returns, Dragonfall, and my favourite: Hong Kong). Beamdog remastering Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights was a good excuse to replay them, though the new scenarios (Siege of Dragonspear, Pirates of the Sword Coast,...) didn't really do much for me. I believe they're working on Neverwinter Nights 2, which is I game I'm quite fond of (Mask of the Betrayer is such an interesting story), so I'm looking forward to seeing it. The indie scene is also doing interesting things, Fell Seal: Arbiters Mark is a neat take on the Tactical RPG style based on Final Fantasy Tactics.
    - archerx 2y ago
      Beamdog took a massive shit on Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 with their awful fan fiction that seems like it was written by a 5th grader who fell out of a tree and hit their head on every branch on the way down. I was ready to buy all of their remasters until I stumbled upon Nera and proceeded to uninstall the game and curse beamdog any chance I get. Thank God I have my original disks.
- onli 2y ago
  There are really a lot of RPGs right now that do not follow Bethesda's model. Consider Kingdome Come Deliverance as an example for a very different approach, more akin to Gothic. Speaking of, the upcoming Gothic remake is another game that will be quite different, something to put on the list and to buy if reviews are okay. Or vampire bloodlines 2, if that gets released it won't be similar to skyrim at all. BG3 was already mentioned. For more games that are released, check out Solasta: Crown of the magister, and there are a lot of other options at that level.
- thih9 2y ago
  I also dislike Bethesda scaling content and loved Zelda BOTW - I wish there was a way to disable enemy scaling there. For those who didn’t notice - https://zeldamods.org/wiki/Difficulty_scaling https://zeldamods.org/wiki/Difficulty_scaling For anyone looking for an alternative, Bethesda’s Morrowind has it all, an open world and no scaling enemies.
ewzimm 2y ago
I loved both of these games and spent a lot of time with them. The Baldur's Gate review here stays pretty close to others I've read, but the Fallout 2 review is the more interesting part because it's more opinionated, and in ways I disagree with. It's interesting how much everyone involved seemed to dislike the game, but very much fits the late 90's vibe. It's also what made it one of my all-time favorites. I never felt like I was playing through someone else's story. It felt like a set of content you could actually create your own character and play through, directed by your character's own motivations rather than the writer's. It's a quality that's rare to find in games, but the conditions of a bunch of people creating as much content as they could without a specific direction make sense for how this kind of thing would have to come together. Baldur's Gate is great, but much more linear and gives less opportunities for choices and role-playing. I wish more games would revisit the freedom of Fallout 2.
mtillman 2y ago
Two favorite games. The infinity engine / interplay crpgs were all a blast until iron heart where they rushed it out the door. Even that has a ton of promise first half to third if the game. https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10505 https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10505
zeroq 2y ago
Fallout 3 is the best example of uncanny valley phenomenon. In original Fallout you enter a city which spans across four screens, repetetively uses the same set of limited sprites and is inhabited by some random moving pixels acting as citizens of which several have some interesting dialog lines. The Fallout 3 seems similar at first, only employing a major leap in technological advancement - the city spans in every direction, there are animated and voice acted characters, and everyone is presented in cutting edge 3D technology. But it all falls flat upon closer inspection. Every building is exactly the same. Dialogs are mundane and everyone has some sort of hiking accident where they took an arrow to the knee and even though the city has only 8 buildings its easy to get lost. The reason is simple - in the original the story takes place mainly in your head, it's a mind's eye theatre, the game only gives you a broad outlines of the world and you are forced to fill out the blanks yourself. The game doesn't try to be realistic and leaves you a lot of space. Once you start animating and voice acting your characters you quickly realize it's an endless money pit. The more lines you add, the cost grows exponentially, because you have to account for all localisation scenarios. This is summed up very well (forgive me for not looking up reference and quoting from memory) by Bioshock lead who said in interview: "At work if I have an idea we need to assemble a team - including programmers, modellers, scripters - and just to get a basic prototype that would give us the gist of what we were thinking it takes a month or more. Meanwhile, at home, I can relax after work, and in one evening session create a whole Doom campaign."
- JFingleton 2y ago
  When I worked in the games industry, we would spent an incredible amount of effort, money and time on creating as realistic a world as we could muster out of the hardware. This would involve talented artists, animators, programmers and hardware engineers. And then came Minecraft made by 1 guy rendering blocky graphics with basic animations. It was a real wake up call for a lot of developers, that success isn't driven by how realistic you can make a world, but something more fundamental. Most games with ultra-realistic graphics feel more like theme-park rides, where you have little or no affect on the game - as doing so would break the immersion. After minecraft came out I quit the industry, and am far happier for it.
onli 2y ago
Very negative depiction of Fallout 2 here. I would instead strongly recommend it, especially to players who liked the first Fallout, or who liked Fallout New Vegas. It does not feel as heartless and disjointed as the article suggests, instead it is a bigger game than its predecessor with more variety and options. Lots of roleplaying and great lore with good quests and interesting characters.
- arp242 2y ago
  I'm surprised; I don't recall the reception being that negative/muted at the time. Wikipedia seems to agree: "Fallout 2 was well received by critics, who praised its gameplay and storyline, and considered it a worthy successor to the original Fallout". From what I recall it's quite a lot bigger and less linear than the first game. When I (re-)played Fallout again a few years back I found it hard to get over the jankiness of it all. I didn't finish it. Porting Fallout 1 and 2 to the Infinity Engine used by the Black Isle games is one of my "dream projects" I'll probably never get around to.
  - onli 2y ago
    You are right, https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2382/ https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2382/ and https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2612/ https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2612/ suggests that the games were around equally well received (in the german gaming press at least, which is a good mark for RPGs). I believed the article there, but it's mistaken as far as I can tell.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

72 points by doppp 2y ago

I got my start with CRPGs playing Bard's Tale, all the SSI Gold Box games, Wizardry and then Ultima Underworld. I really miss the variety of CRPGs we used to have. I don't like real-time games. I like being able to chill playing turn-based games (including strategy games like Civ). I don't think I'm alone in that and it's one of those fundamental misunderstanding game publishers have: thinking players want "hard" games, which for a CRPG (or, rather, an ARPG) really means how fast you can react. But I really dislike the Bethesda CRPG model, which is really the only model left. I hate scaling content. It's lazy. I really dislike that in games like Skyrim you have to level efficiently or you get weaker (because of content scaling) and that forces you to do some non-fun things to optimize your levelling. I know a lot of people enjoyed the Fallout serivce. For me, the aesthetics killed it for me. A brown wasteland just isn't aesthetically pleasing as a fantasy environment. To contradict myself, I have to give special mention to Zelda: Breath of the Wild. I wish I could erase my memory to play that game for the first time again. It's not without its issues but the feeling you have of being in the world is virtually unmatched by any other game.

ferguess_k 2y ago
One thing I dislike the Bethesda games is that quests are too shallow. So many times, I wondered while playing the games, someone could put some extra love into some of the quests to make them much more in depth and more interesting. Alas, budget and time limited I guess.
- beloch 2y ago
  A big part was being brave enough to make players put a little mental effort in. In Morrowind, a big part of gameplay was figuring out where you needed to go to progress in a quest. A NPC might say to go to a town, take the East road out, turn left at the lake, and proceed until you see a certain kind of tree. You actually needed to do all that just to find the next step of the quest. It felt incredibly immersive. In Skyrim and a lot of post-Skyrim games, you just take a direct path to the quest marker without even thinking about it. Quests in Skyrim often feel shallow because you put in almost no effort. It's a little skippable dialogue, a run across the mountains to a quest marker, kill something, loot something, and run to another quest marker for more optional dialogue. The dialogue in these quests often didn't even explain how you know where to go. Maybe the NPC puts a mark on your map, or maybe you're just psychic! Writers no longer had to care about giving directions, so they often didn't. Bethesda probably did this because players were complaining about getting lost in Morrowind. If a quest isn't carefully written and the world carefully designed, it is often easy for players to miss the mark. After Skyrim, quest makers became the norm in all sorts of RPG's. It reduced effort for developers and ensured players don't get lost. However, it may be the case that the frustration of getting lost and the triumph of finding your way are parts of a compelling role-playing experience. BG1 and Fallout 1/2 were both games where you could get badly lost and wander into areas that were way too tough for your character at the stage of the game you were currently in. Getting a little bit lost, a little bit in over your head, and stumbling upon something hidden was actually a lot of fun.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    +++++ on this. There are mods for Skyrim that remove the markers and other indicators while also rewriting any quest description that are insufficiently descriptive, and it just completely changes the game. Even more so if you remove fast travel. There are also mods that remove the scaling yet maintain a balanced world. Basically, Bethesda games need to be modded, and there are some absurdly high quality modding teams out there. But it's also weird because all of these mods sound like you're just beating yourself in the head, and perhaps we are. I remember a game development class I took, and one of the first things we did was define what game was. I thought it was quite stupid at the time, but in hindsight maybe the guy was onto something: "A series of unnecessary obstacles." And so it always sounds great to remove obstacles, but the more obstacles you remove, the less of a game you have left at the end of it all. For those of us who grew up in the Nintendo era I think none of us will ever forget Battle Toads, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Punch Out, and other such games where the entire games are basically about beating yourself in the head repeatedly, yet at the end of it all - it felt great!
  - snickerer 2y ago
    I totally feel that. I would love to play an RPG where I need to take notes. Where I fear to get lost in the wilderness if I take the wrong turn because I could get eaten by a horrible beast then. I mean, that's what real adventures are about, or not? The mystery of exploration. The need to navigate by markers in nature or even the sun. In a perfect world for me, game devs would add more dynamic and intelligent NPCs with their own agenda. I am bored by the feeling of Potemkin villages, where everything feels like it is designed to give you a smooth game experience and every NPC is standing there forever, just waiting for you.
  - ferguess_k 2y ago
    I think it's a bit more than "because players put in almost no effort" but I do agree that is a big factor. I'm probably nitpicking here, but I really hope they put a lot more thoughts into each quest. For example I remember one of the brotherhood tasks is to assassinate the Emperor, but it was a very disappointing task as far as I remember. Admittedly, removing the markers and such definitely helps a bit, but I can't help feeling that the game designers just wanted to pump as many quests into the games as possible, and call it a day. I'd rather have just half of the quests, but with each of them having more depth and require more thoughts.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  For decent time it really has not been about budget or time. Certainly not after say Skyrim and maybe including that. It is more so their game design philosophy and lack of talent in making more interesting things. In the end Bethesda makes worlds filled with small pastiches. And well with Starfield they even failed the filling part.
janosett 2y ago
Baldur’s Gate 3 is recent and very much doesn’t follow the Bethesda model! It’s also turn-based which was a big plus for me as well.
Semaphor 2y ago
I started with turn-based RPGs, Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny in my case (the original German version). I was a teen playing shooters when the RTwP craze happened and never really got into those, luckily there’s actually a pretty wide selection of TB CRPGs, nowadays. My absolute favorites are Owlcat’s Pathfinder games, BG3 is obviously the huge and popular one, Owlcat’s Rogue Trader for the WH40k crowds, but there are also tons of smaller niche games. I recently played "Skald: Against the Black Priory" [0] a pixel graphic retro-style RPG, and currently playing "Space Wreck" [1], a fallout inspired CRPG heavy on replayability, but there are many, many more. [0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069160/SKALD_Against_the_Black_Priory/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069160/SKALD_Against_the... [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/
- iamacyborg 2y ago
  Rogue Trader really nailed a lot of the 40k atmosphere which was great. All the plebs on the ship are being too noisy, just cut out all their tongues.
- tmtvl 2y ago
  Yeah, Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath are great. I also really enjoyed Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 (I especially liked 2, I believe others preferred 1), Tyranny, and Hare Brained Schemes' Shadowrun series (Returns, Dragonfall, and my favourite: Hong Kong). Beamdog remastering Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights was a good excuse to replay them, though the new scenarios (Siege of Dragonspear, Pirates of the Sword Coast,...) didn't really do much for me. I believe they're working on Neverwinter Nights 2, which is I game I'm quite fond of (Mask of the Betrayer is such an interesting story), so I'm looking forward to seeing it. The indie scene is also doing interesting things, Fell Seal: Arbiters Mark is a neat take on the Tactical RPG style based on Final Fantasy Tactics.
  - archerx 2y ago
    Beamdog took a massive shit on Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 with their awful fan fiction that seems like it was written by a 5th grader who fell out of a tree and hit their head on every branch on the way down. I was ready to buy all of their remasters until I stumbled upon Nera and proceeded to uninstall the game and curse beamdog any chance I get. Thank God I have my original disks.
onli 2y ago
There are really a lot of RPGs right now that do not follow Bethesda's model. Consider Kingdome Come Deliverance as an example for a very different approach, more akin to Gothic. Speaking of, the upcoming Gothic remake is another game that will be quite different, something to put on the list and to buy if reviews are okay. Or vampire bloodlines 2, if that gets released it won't be similar to skyrim at all. BG3 was already mentioned. For more games that are released, check out Solasta: Crown of the magister, and there are a lot of other options at that level.
thih9 2y ago
I also dislike Bethesda scaling content and loved Zelda BOTW - I wish there was a way to disable enemy scaling there. For those who didn’t notice - https://zeldamods.org/wiki/Difficulty_scaling https://zeldamods.org/wiki/Difficulty_scaling For anyone looking for an alternative, Bethesda’s Morrowind has it all, an open world and no scaling enemies.

ewzimm 2y ago

I loved both of these games and spent a lot of time with them. The Baldur's Gate review here stays pretty close to others I've read, but the Fallout 2 review is the more interesting part because it's more opinionated, and in ways I disagree with. It's interesting how much everyone involved seemed to dislike the game, but very much fits the late 90's vibe. It's also what made it one of my all-time favorites. I never felt like I was playing through someone else's story. It felt like a set of content you could actually create your own character and play through, directed by your character's own motivations rather than the writer's. It's a quality that's rare to find in games, but the conditions of a bunch of people creating as much content as they could without a specific direction make sense for how this kind of thing would have to come together. Baldur's Gate is great, but much more linear and gives less opportunities for choices and role-playing. I wish more games would revisit the freedom of Fallout 2.

mtillman 2y ago

Two favorite games. The infinity engine / interplay crpgs were all a blast until iron heart where they rushed it out the door. Even that has a ton of promise first half to third if the game. https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10505 https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10505

zeroq 2y ago

Fallout 3 is the best example of uncanny valley phenomenon. In original Fallout you enter a city which spans across four screens, repetetively uses the same set of limited sprites and is inhabited by some random moving pixels acting as citizens of which several have some interesting dialog lines. The Fallout 3 seems similar at first, only employing a major leap in technological advancement - the city spans in every direction, there are animated and voice acted characters, and everyone is presented in cutting edge 3D technology. But it all falls flat upon closer inspection. Every building is exactly the same. Dialogs are mundane and everyone has some sort of hiking accident where they took an arrow to the knee and even though the city has only 8 buildings its easy to get lost. The reason is simple - in the original the story takes place mainly in your head, it's a mind's eye theatre, the game only gives you a broad outlines of the world and you are forced to fill out the blanks yourself. The game doesn't try to be realistic and leaves you a lot of space. Once you start animating and voice acting your characters you quickly realize it's an endless money pit. The more lines you add, the cost grows exponentially, because you have to account for all localisation scenarios. This is summed up very well (forgive me for not looking up reference and quoting from memory) by Bioshock lead who said in interview: "At work if I have an idea we need to assemble a team - including programmers, modellers, scripters - and just to get a basic prototype that would give us the gist of what we were thinking it takes a month or more. Meanwhile, at home, I can relax after work, and in one evening session create a whole Doom campaign."

JFingleton 2y ago
When I worked in the games industry, we would spent an incredible amount of effort, money and time on creating as realistic a world as we could muster out of the hardware. This would involve talented artists, animators, programmers and hardware engineers. And then came Minecraft made by 1 guy rendering blocky graphics with basic animations. It was a real wake up call for a lot of developers, that success isn't driven by how realistic you can make a world, but something more fundamental. Most games with ultra-realistic graphics feel more like theme-park rides, where you have little or no affect on the game - as doing so would break the immersion. After minecraft came out I quit the industry, and am far happier for it.

onli 2y ago

Very negative depiction of Fallout 2 here. I would instead strongly recommend it, especially to players who liked the first Fallout, or who liked Fallout New Vegas. It does not feel as heartless and disjointed as the article suggests, instead it is a bigger game than its predecessor with more variety and options. Lots of roleplaying and great lore with good quests and interesting characters.

arp242 2y ago
I'm surprised; I don't recall the reception being that negative/muted at the time. Wikipedia seems to agree: "Fallout 2 was well received by critics, who praised its gameplay and storyline, and considered it a worthy successor to the original Fallout". From what I recall it's quite a lot bigger and less linear than the first game. When I (re-)played Fallout again a few years back I found it hard to get over the jankiness of it all. I didn't finish it. Porting Fallout 1 and 2 to the Infinity Engine used by the Black Isle games is one of my "dream projects" I'll probably never get around to.
- onli 2y ago
  You are right, https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2382/ https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2382/ and https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2612/ https://www.kultboy.com/testbericht-uebersicht/2612/ suggests that the games were around equally well received (in the german gaming press at least, which is a good mark for RPGs). I believed the article there, but it's mistaken as far as I can tell.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]