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Reminds me of [1] from 2013, and [2][3] from 2017. This is not new at all, just affecting more people, and more importantly, more Western people now. [1] https

by oefrha 2y ago

Reminds me of [1] from 2013, and [2][3] from 2017. This is not new at all, just affecting more people, and more importantly, more Western people now. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/05/us-scientists-boycott-nasa-china-ban https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/05/us-scientist... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643467 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24369233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24369233 Clarification: the “not new” part is foreign attendees not being able to attend conferences in the U.S. So, if you valued inclusion, holding international conferences in the U.S. has been a bad idea for a long time.

mmooss 2y ago
The first isn't the same at all: Chinese scientists were prevented from attending based on an official government policy, not randomly arrested and detained. The second and third are the same incident, from the prior Trump administration. But the visa was denied; nobody was arrested or detained.
- oefrha 2y ago
  People are randomly arrested and detained base on official government policy. And they have been arresting and detaining people long before Jan 2024, but it was scaled up recently. A recent story made it clear that some people with minor visa overstays have already been detained for months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 The fact is if you care about people from all around the world being able to attend your conference, the U.S. hasn’t been a good location for a long time. That’s not new. In fact [2][3] is only noteworthy because it was an influential individual (in this circle) with a strong passport; people with weaker passports are routinely denied. Hell sometimes UN diplomats are denied.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > People are randomly arrested and detained base on official government policy. Right, but you did not give examples of that happening previously.
    - oefrha 2y ago
      Once again, when I say “not new” I’m talking about > The fact is if you care about people from all around the world being able to attend your conference, the U.S. hasn’t been a good location for a long time. TFA says > As an Internet community we strive to include everyone. Holding a meeting in the US is incompatible with our values. It’s been incompatible with their values for very long.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        You are arguing with someone who agrees with you but wanted to point out that your examples were bad and did not support your position that well.
        oefrha 2y ago
        No, I’m arguing with someone who thinks I’m saying arbitrary arrests are not new (in fact I believe those aren’t new either, but I’m not arguing that and can’t be bothered to dig up sources), when I’m saying not being able to attend conferences in the U.S. is not new.
  - leftcenterright 2y ago
    > “This measure was apparently taken by the American authorities because the researcher’s phone contained exchanges with colleagues and friends in which he expressed a personal opinion on the Trump administration’s research policy,” the minister added. I don't think this has been a basis for denying entry to people in past?
guesswho_ 2y ago
[flagged]
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Western people are more likely to make noise about it when it affects them. No surprises there.
  - pas 2y ago
    I believe people make roughly similar amount of noise depending on the situation, but we are not there to hear it. (And in case of many people from eg. South American or African countries this is not a completely new situation so.)
  - guesswho_ 2y ago
    Not a westerners myself. Your response solidified my point even further.
black_puppydog 2y ago
Getting a visa to travel to conferences was one of the major blockers for non-EU citizens during my studies. It was heartbreaking to see people work for years on a subject, finally get accepted to a top conference, and then not be able to go and present just because the visa was impossible to get in time or was simply refused. However, these cases were rejections of visa. And even Stenberg's case was about being denied entry, not arbitrary detainment and torture like we see now. IMHO this wave of cases is a change in quantity that results in a change of quality already. But the quality of the rejection/detainment has changed as well.
leftcenterright 2y ago
Being detained is way worse than being denied entry. > I was then placed in a real jail unit: two levels of cells surrounding a common area, just like in the movies. I was put in a tiny cell alone with a bunk bed and a toilet. > The best part: there were blankets. After three days without one, I wrapped myself in mine and finally felt some comfort. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/canadian-detained-us-immigration-jasmine-mooney https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/canadian-det... How is this not "new at all"? I just don't understand why some people are so blind to the ongoing abuse of power. What a shame!
- oefrha 2y ago
  That exact same article says someone has been tossed around in that system for ten months. That’s just someone among the 100-200 people they met. That same article even has photos of the system from the 2000s. There’s a photo of people sleeping on the floor wrapped in the exact kind of aluminum sheet “blankets” dated 2014. It’s been going on for very long. (Btw, I suspect it’s only getting attention now that the more-equal-than-others groups are also getting the same treatment, but I’m not going to push that point.) And I was very clear about which part is “not new”. What a shame people can’t read. What a shame partisan commenters read “U.S. has been blah blah for a long time” and immediately jump to “Trump defender!!!” Edit: I should also mention I literally emailed dang to get https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 (discussion thread for your link) restored when it was flagged.
  - leftcenterright 2y ago
    The links you shared in your original comment all pointed to "rejections", not "legal people being detained". What has always been going on: people overstay their visa, depending on the scale and country, people get treated badly almost always in these cases. What is happening now: people being critical of Trump are being rejected, legal visa holders are being detained because of the scale of the abuse. These are clearly very different things and very much a fault of specifically Trump administration. Searching phones and messages to look for Trump critical messages .. unbelievable and totally new stuff is going on here: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/trump-musk-french-scientist-detained https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/trump-musk-f...

by oefrha 2y ago

mmooss 2y ago

The first isn't the same at all: Chinese scientists were prevented from attending based on an official government policy, not randomly arrested and detained. The second and third are the same incident, from the prior Trump administration. But the visa was denied; nobody was arrested or detained.

oefrha 2y ago
People are randomly arrested and detained base on official government policy. And they have been arresting and detaining people long before Jan 2024, but it was scaled up recently. A recent story made it clear that some people with minor visa overstays have already been detained for months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 The fact is if you care about people from all around the world being able to attend your conference, the U.S. hasn’t been a good location for a long time. That’s not new. In fact [2][3] is only noteworthy because it was an influential individual (in this circle) with a strong passport; people with weaker passports are routinely denied. Hell sometimes UN diplomats are denied.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > People are randomly arrested and detained base on official government policy. Right, but you did not give examples of that happening previously.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    Once again, when I say “not new” I’m talking about > The fact is if you care about people from all around the world being able to attend your conference, the U.S. hasn’t been a good location for a long time. TFA says > As an Internet community we strive to include everyone. Holding a meeting in the US is incompatible with our values. It’s been incompatible with their values for very long.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      You are arguing with someone who agrees with you but wanted to point out that your examples were bad and did not support your position that well.
      - oefrha 2y ago
        No, I’m arguing with someone who thinks I’m saying arbitrary arrests are not new (in fact I believe those aren’t new either, but I’m not arguing that and can’t be bothered to dig up sources), when I’m saying not being able to attend conferences in the U.S. is not new.
- leftcenterright 2y ago
  > “This measure was apparently taken by the American authorities because the researcher’s phone contained exchanges with colleagues and friends in which he expressed a personal opinion on the Trump administration’s research policy,” the minister added. I don't think this has been a basis for denying entry to people in past?

guesswho_ 2y ago

[flagged]

Aeolun 2y ago
Western people are more likely to make noise about it when it affects them. No surprises there.
- pas 2y ago
  I believe people make roughly similar amount of noise depending on the situation, but we are not there to hear it. (And in case of many people from eg. South American or African countries this is not a completely new situation so.)
- guesswho_ 2y ago
  Not a westerners myself. Your response solidified my point even further.

black_puppydog 2y ago

Getting a visa to travel to conferences was one of the major blockers for non-EU citizens during my studies. It was heartbreaking to see people work for years on a subject, finally get accepted to a top conference, and then not be able to go and present just because the visa was impossible to get in time or was simply refused. However, these cases were rejections of visa. And even Stenberg's case was about being denied entry, not arbitrary detainment and torture like we see now. IMHO this wave of cases is a change in quantity that results in a change of quality already. But the quality of the rejection/detainment has changed as well.

leftcenterright 2y ago

Being detained is way worse than being denied entry. > I was then placed in a real jail unit: two levels of cells surrounding a common area, just like in the movies. I was put in a tiny cell alone with a bunk bed and a toilet. > The best part: there were blankets. After three days without one, I wrapped myself in mine and finally felt some comfort. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/canadian-detained-us-immigration-jasmine-mooney https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/canadian-det... How is this not "new at all"? I just don't understand why some people are so blind to the ongoing abuse of power. What a shame!

oefrha 2y ago
That exact same article says someone has been tossed around in that system for ten months. That’s just someone among the 100-200 people they met. That same article even has photos of the system from the 2000s. There’s a photo of people sleeping on the floor wrapped in the exact kind of aluminum sheet “blankets” dated 2014. It’s been going on for very long. (Btw, I suspect it’s only getting attention now that the more-equal-than-others groups are also getting the same treatment, but I’m not going to push that point.) And I was very clear about which part is “not new”. What a shame people can’t read. What a shame partisan commenters read “U.S. has been blah blah for a long time” and immediately jump to “Trump defender!!!” Edit: I should also mention I literally emailed dang to get https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43410548 (discussion thread for your link) restored when it was flagged.
- leftcenterright 2y ago
  The links you shared in your original comment all pointed to "rejections", not "legal people being detained". What has always been going on: people overstay their visa, depending on the scale and country, people get treated badly almost always in these cases. What is happening now: people being critical of Trump are being rejected, legal visa holders are being detained because of the scale of the abuse. These are clearly very different things and very much a fault of specifically Trump administration. Searching phones and messages to look for Trump critical messages .. unbelievable and totally new stuff is going on here: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/trump-musk-french-scientist-detained https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/19/trump-musk-f...