5 ms·

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

by film42 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
test098 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St... pretty much every team in blue collar industries which have been able to negotiate better working conditions, better pay, and more time off.
- wyager 2y ago
  But tech isn't a blue collar industry, and this is about tech unions.
  - test098 2y ago
    love those flying goalposts. i guess "tech" is different enough from other kinds of labor that it's special? ok: IFPTE, UAW, CWA (which just recently welcomed workers in the video game industry: https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc...) edit: Alphabet Workers Union under CWA, Riot Games under UAW, Tech Workers Coalition
    - wyager 2y ago
      Yeah but the question is "are there any examples where unions obviously helped the workers". You responded "blue collar unions", where there's a pretty common perception that they did help, but when it comes to white collar unions you can only come up with examples that aren't really known for having done anything. UAW isn't even white-collar.
      - test098 2y ago
        the "tech industry" is somehow totally isolated and completely different from all other types of labor in the history of the united states? how? here's an answer i gave to this question downstream: "the Riot Games union is bargaining for better pay and less brutal working hours. at Blizzard they did employee walkouts, leading to better pay and changes in work culture. at Kickstarter they negotiated better remote work policies and reduction of discriminatory actions."
      - mulnz 2y ago
        The whole conversation is about the novelty and usefulness of something that doesn't exist in the mainstream. Those who are skeptical can eternally say "show me more examples". Maybe your critique isn't as useful as you think it is.
  - shagie 2y ago
    I'd point to Kickstarter United - https://kickstarterunited.org https://kickstarterunited.org How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry ( 190 points | Oct 7, 2020 | 369 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711814 Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts ( 179 points | June 17, 2022 | 305 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780972
    - busterarm 2y ago
      Kickstarter only voted 97.6% after absolutely bitter internal conflicts and a semi-forced exodus of people who weren't on board with the plan. The in-fighting was extremely bitter, extremely personal, included death-threats and I know several former Kickstarter employees on both sides of that mess who are in therapy over how that all went down.
      - onemoresoop 2y ago
        Were death threats on one side more than the other? If so, which side?
        busterarm 2y ago
        That's not the narrative you should be looking to draw from this.
  - Cyph0n 2y ago
    We don’t have feathers in our caps. Blue, white, red, whatever - we are all resources working for the capitalists, and should try to learn whatever we can from each other. So, why are there no major tech unions specifically? Tech is a “new” field (relatively speaking), is generally well paid, and comes with relatively better benefits compared to other fields. This is not something inherent to the field: it’s just a supply vs. demand thing combined with easy access to money (low rates, VCs, etc). Unions will start to become more prominent as shit hits the fan for us tech workers. Because without a unifying threat, there is no realistic way to convince a bunch of people who are living relatively well to join forces - as demonstrated by this thread. Unfortunately, the existence of a common threat is necessary imo but not sufficient (in the US at least), as we’ve witnessed over the past few years of layoffs and forced RTO.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Why is tech not blue collar? Because you use your brain instead of your hands? You are closer to a plumber or an electrician than to Sergey Brin, griping that you should be working 60 hours a week to develop AI to replace you for Alphabet shareholders.
    - jimbokun 2y ago
      Well yeah, isn’t manual vs mental labor the classic blue collar/white collar distinction?
    - wyager 2y ago
      > You are closer to a plumber or an electrician than to Sergey Brin I'm also a lot closer to a lawyer or a doctor than I am to a plumber. And very likely on the Sergey Brin side of the distribution.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Doctors have unions [1] ("among actively practicing physicians, approximately 70,000 currently belong to a union, representing 8% of physicians" [2]), lawyers have essentially guilds. If your wealth is closer to Brin’s than the median, than you’re an outlier whom I would not expect to need nor value a union (congrats on your luck). Unions are for the median, not the very wealthy and lucky [3]. The median annual wage for physicians and surgeons in the US was $239,200 in 2023. In May 2023, the median annual wage for lawyers in the U.S. was $145,760, with the lowest 10% earning less than $69,760 and the highest 10% earning more than $239,200. Stats shamelessly stolen from the US BLS website. [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/doctors-unionize-as-healthcare-services-are-consolidated-into-corporate-systems https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/doctors-unionize-as-health... [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9616465/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9616465/ [3] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-owns-americas-wealth/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-o...
  - Henchman21 2y ago
    I work in a data center with electricians, tower climbers, and systems and network engineers. ALL of us are blue collar. Including me, a systems/network engineer. I suggest you investigate this aspect of tech — there’s more to it than VS Code and JavaScript
    - busterarm 2y ago
      Data Center and Operations people absolutely are blue collar in attitude and mindset, but you DC folks get to be isolated. If you're in a working environment that hires SDEs straight out of Tier 1 Universities, start talking about what it's like to grow up poor and you'll see quickly how everyone's eyes glaze over and you get treated like a pariah.
      - Henchman21 2y ago
        No worries on that front: I grew up dirt poor. Now I’m at a well known HFT firm. I know this quite well. I absolutely don’t belong. Edit to add: I’m never allowed to forget that I don’t belong.
        busterarm 2y ago
        Had the same experience at an extremely well known hedge fund. Good luck and keep your head down, but also once you get to a comfortable position, find a good exit. There are better environments and finance isn't at the top of the pay pyramid anymore.
        Henchman21 2y ago
        Not sure why this would get downvoted? Appreciate the advice! Glad to know my plan is sane :)
  - mateo411 2y ago
    I agree. Unless you are programming Java. "Java is a blue collar language." - James Gosling
jakelazaroff 2y ago
Let’s take the NYT Tech Guild. They negotiated a new contract following a strike last November. Here are some of the things they won: > Enhanced job security with ‘just cause’ protections > Guaranteed wage increases for the first time of up to 8.25% (plus additional base rate discretionary compensation) that prioritize the largest wage increases for the lowest paid members over the life of the contract > Additional compensation for on-call work > Important protections that lock in guardrails on additional variable compensation (including stocks and bonuses) > Improved protections for workers on visas > Language guaranteeing flexible hybrid work schedules > Process and transparency protections related to career growth, performance reviews and other workplace issues https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/11/24319022/nyt-times-tech-guild-workers-win-tentative-union-contract https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/11/24319022/nyt-times-tech-...
- lr4444lr 2y ago
  As a fairly progressive news outlet attracting staff with certain sensibilties in the NYC area and selling views to people who are the same, the NYTimes board of directors has a vested PR interest in tolerating unions with the large amounts money they have to pay for the privilege. I'm not convinced the company is better served by unionized employees over the rest of the tech scene, which has to innovate to stay solvent. Knowing someone in tech there who refused to join the union, I was told these guys aren't particularly the best or smartest colleagues she's ever worked with to put it mildly.
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    Sounds plausible, but that hypothesis is ultimately belied by the the NYT's actual stance toward their unions (which is hostile): https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-messages-new-york-times-anti-union-strategy https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-message... > The National Labor Relations Board rejected the New York Times’ attempt to stop the election, alleging the bargaining unit was improper. The company had previously declined to voluntarily recognize the union and immediately began holding anti-union captive audience meetings with workers. > The NewsGuild of New York filed a complaint earlier this month with the NLRB, accusing the Times of violating federal labor law by adding new paid days off to the company holiday calendar for non-union employees only – which was viewed as a tactic to dissuade workers from voting for the union. > After the complaint was filed, the New York Times made similar changes to its bereavement policy, making it applicable only to non-union workers. The union is collecting signatures as part of a public petition demanding the New York Times stop what it calls union-busting. > On 5 January, the NLRB filed a complaint against the Times, ruling the company violated federal labor law by telling some employees they could not show support for tech workers seeking to unionize.
FranzFerdiNaN 2y ago
Are you working 7 days a week in horrific circumstances? Do you have children as your colleagues? No? That’s due to unions and labourers fighting for the rights you currently have.
- pixl97 2y ago
  Heh, it terrifies me at times of how clueless of the past the general population is. We're already at the point in history where people like Bezos and Musk want to return to company cities with their own non-cash payment systems. The 1800's were horrific. It was not the industrial revolution alone that made things better. People had to fight and die in the labor movement for better outcomes for us now.
- Cyph0n 2y ago
  Unbelievable that this had to be spelled out. Do people actually think that current working conditions and employee rights were bestowed upon us by benevolent capitalists?
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    When it comes to tech workers, not by benevolent capitalists, but by greedy capitalists. Up until say 2022 or so, the vast majority of people who worked in tech companies in the US were compensated extremely well (relatively) without unions, the reason being that (a) modern tech, especially software, can be such a "force multiplier" where a small team of programmers can serve millions of customers and (b) there really is a huge difference in individual programmer capability, and in winner-take-all/most markets, capitalists were willing to pay outsized amounts for those they deemed higher quality workers (meaning able to create higher quality/better/faster etc. products). We're at an inflection point now both with the general maturity of the Internet, and with AI, that the ability to capture huge parts of the market is less dependent on the skills of individual software engineers/product managers, etc. When you are less able to differentiate the quality of your labor against your peers, that is when unions become more desirable.
    - 2y ago
debunn 2y ago
The following is my personal experience being part of a collective bargaining union (OPSEU local 598), which encompassed a few hundred workers for Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, in Toronto Ontario, from 2007-2017. I worked in IT for the duration of my employment (although not all union members were IT - but a lot were.) The good: - An elected collective bargaining team negotiated for us every ~5 years, and came up with a collective bargaining agreement (CBA). This allowed the members to express their desires for what they wanted (although not all requests were brought up in bargaining, and had to be agreed to to be ratified), which were generally listened to - On-call compensation was set out as part of that agreement, and was the most generous I've experienced in my 25+ year career. - Members could file grievances with the union regarding work conditions, or unfair treatment of the workers (I don't recall hearing of this ever happening, but there were processes in place for it) - Health benefits were good, if not the best I've seen - You could get two pay bumps per year, one that all union members got that was set aside in the CBA, and another moving you up a spot in your pay band (but only if you were not at the top of your salary band) The bad: - Union dues, while not huge, were yet another noticeable deduction from each pay - When at the top of your salary band, you only got the one cost of living adjustment per year. There was no automatic way of moving to the next salary band - Getting promoted means applying for internally posted positions (which all employees can apply for), and successfully being hired in to that position. This is the only way to move up salary bands, and you could only move up one pay slot in the new band (as they overlapped between bands). This really limited upwards career growth, and meant that leaving the company was the only way to get double-digit pay increases (or move in to management, which was outside the union) - Our CBA strangely didn't cover / prevent layoffs of staff (although other union CBAs certainly do - so this is just my own experience), so I was one of the 100+ members that were laid off when a new VP decided to outsource a bunch of our roles to Tata Consultancy Services in India. There were provisions in place given my seniority that would have made a more junior union members have to be laid off in place of me (so I could take over their role instead), however I opted to take my severance package as I was ready to move on. So to summarize - unions are definitely a mixed bag in my experience. I can appreciate the good they can do (and different CBAs will result in wildly different experiences), but from what I've personally seen, they generally function to treat all workers in a similar way: not rewarding the best, and not really punishing the worst.

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

by film42 2y ago

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

test098 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St... pretty much every team in blue collar industries which have been able to negotiate better working conditions, better pay, and more time off.

wyager 2y ago
But tech isn't a blue collar industry, and this is about tech unions.
- test098 2y ago
  love those flying goalposts. i guess "tech" is different enough from other kinds of labor that it's special? ok: IFPTE, UAW, CWA (which just recently welcomed workers in the video game industry: https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/video-game-workers-launc...) edit: Alphabet Workers Union under CWA, Riot Games under UAW, Tech Workers Coalition
  - wyager 2y ago
    Yeah but the question is "are there any examples where unions obviously helped the workers". You responded "blue collar unions", where there's a pretty common perception that they did help, but when it comes to white collar unions you can only come up with examples that aren't really known for having done anything. UAW isn't even white-collar.
    - test098 2y ago
      the "tech industry" is somehow totally isolated and completely different from all other types of labor in the history of the united states? how? here's an answer i gave to this question downstream: "the Riot Games union is bargaining for better pay and less brutal working hours. at Blizzard they did employee walkouts, leading to better pay and changes in work culture. at Kickstarter they negotiated better remote work policies and reduction of discriminatory actions."
    - mulnz 2y ago
      The whole conversation is about the novelty and usefulness of something that doesn't exist in the mainstream. Those who are skeptical can eternally say "show me more examples". Maybe your critique isn't as useful as you think it is.
- shagie 2y ago
  I'd point to Kickstarter United - https://kickstarterunited.org https://kickstarterunited.org How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry ( 190 points | Oct 7, 2020 | 369 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24711814 Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts ( 179 points | June 17, 2022 | 305 comments ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780972
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Kickstarter only voted 97.6% after absolutely bitter internal conflicts and a semi-forced exodus of people who weren't on board with the plan. The in-fighting was extremely bitter, extremely personal, included death-threats and I know several former Kickstarter employees on both sides of that mess who are in therapy over how that all went down.
    - onemoresoop 2y ago
      Were death threats on one side more than the other? If so, which side?
      - busterarm 2y ago
        That's not the narrative you should be looking to draw from this.
- Cyph0n 2y ago
  We don’t have feathers in our caps. Blue, white, red, whatever - we are all resources working for the capitalists, and should try to learn whatever we can from each other. So, why are there no major tech unions specifically? Tech is a “new” field (relatively speaking), is generally well paid, and comes with relatively better benefits compared to other fields. This is not something inherent to the field: it’s just a supply vs. demand thing combined with easy access to money (low rates, VCs, etc). Unions will start to become more prominent as shit hits the fan for us tech workers. Because without a unifying threat, there is no realistic way to convince a bunch of people who are living relatively well to join forces - as demonstrated by this thread. Unfortunately, the existence of a common threat is necessary imo but not sufficient (in the US at least), as we’ve witnessed over the past few years of layoffs and forced RTO.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Why is tech not blue collar? Because you use your brain instead of your hands? You are closer to a plumber or an electrician than to Sergey Brin, griping that you should be working 60 hours a week to develop AI to replace you for Alphabet shareholders.
  - jimbokun 2y ago
    Well yeah, isn’t manual vs mental labor the classic blue collar/white collar distinction?
  - wyager 2y ago
    > You are closer to a plumber or an electrician than to Sergey Brin I'm also a lot closer to a lawyer or a doctor than I am to a plumber. And very likely on the Sergey Brin side of the distribution.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Doctors have unions [1] ("among actively practicing physicians, approximately 70,000 currently belong to a union, representing 8% of physicians" [2]), lawyers have essentially guilds. If your wealth is closer to Brin’s than the median, than you’re an outlier whom I would not expect to need nor value a union (congrats on your luck). Unions are for the median, not the very wealthy and lucky [3]. The median annual wage for physicians and surgeons in the US was $239,200 in 2023. In May 2023, the median annual wage for lawyers in the U.S. was $145,760, with the lowest 10% earning less than $69,760 and the highest 10% earning more than $239,200. Stats shamelessly stolen from the US BLS website. [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/doctors-unionize-as-healthcare-services-are-consolidated-into-corporate-systems https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/doctors-unionize-as-health... [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9616465/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9616465/ [3] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-owns-americas-wealth/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-breakdown-of-who-o...
- Henchman21 2y ago
  I work in a data center with electricians, tower climbers, and systems and network engineers. ALL of us are blue collar. Including me, a systems/network engineer. I suggest you investigate this aspect of tech — there’s more to it than VS Code and JavaScript
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Data Center and Operations people absolutely are blue collar in attitude and mindset, but you DC folks get to be isolated. If you're in a working environment that hires SDEs straight out of Tier 1 Universities, start talking about what it's like to grow up poor and you'll see quickly how everyone's eyes glaze over and you get treated like a pariah.
    - Henchman21 2y ago
      No worries on that front: I grew up dirt poor. Now I’m at a well known HFT firm. I know this quite well. I absolutely don’t belong. Edit to add: I’m never allowed to forget that I don’t belong.
      - busterarm 2y ago
        Had the same experience at an extremely well known hedge fund. Good luck and keep your head down, but also once you get to a comfortable position, find a good exit. There are better environments and finance isn't at the top of the pay pyramid anymore.
        Henchman21 2y ago
        Not sure why this would get downvoted? Appreciate the advice! Glad to know my plan is sane :)
- mateo411 2y ago
  I agree. Unless you are programming Java. "Java is a blue collar language." - James Gosling

jakelazaroff 2y ago

Let’s take the NYT Tech Guild. They negotiated a new contract following a strike last November. Here are some of the things they won: > Enhanced job security with ‘just cause’ protections > Guaranteed wage increases for the first time of up to 8.25% (plus additional base rate discretionary compensation) that prioritize the largest wage increases for the lowest paid members over the life of the contract > Additional compensation for on-call work > Important protections that lock in guardrails on additional variable compensation (including stocks and bonuses) > Improved protections for workers on visas > Language guaranteeing flexible hybrid work schedules > Process and transparency protections related to career growth, performance reviews and other workplace issues https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/11/24319022/nyt-times-tech-guild-workers-win-tentative-union-contract https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/11/24319022/nyt-times-tech-...

lr4444lr 2y ago
As a fairly progressive news outlet attracting staff with certain sensibilties in the NYC area and selling views to people who are the same, the NYTimes board of directors has a vested PR interest in tolerating unions with the large amounts money they have to pay for the privilege. I'm not convinced the company is better served by unionized employees over the rest of the tech scene, which has to innovate to stay solvent. Knowing someone in tech there who refused to join the union, I was told these guys aren't particularly the best or smartest colleagues she's ever worked with to put it mildly.
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  Sounds plausible, but that hypothesis is ultimately belied by the the NYT's actual stance toward their unions (which is hostile): https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-messages-new-york-times-anti-union-strategy https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-message... > The National Labor Relations Board rejected the New York Times’ attempt to stop the election, alleging the bargaining unit was improper. The company had previously declined to voluntarily recognize the union and immediately began holding anti-union captive audience meetings with workers. > The NewsGuild of New York filed a complaint earlier this month with the NLRB, accusing the Times of violating federal labor law by adding new paid days off to the company holiday calendar for non-union employees only – which was viewed as a tactic to dissuade workers from voting for the union. > After the complaint was filed, the New York Times made similar changes to its bereavement policy, making it applicable only to non-union workers. The union is collecting signatures as part of a public petition demanding the New York Times stop what it calls union-busting. > On 5 January, the NLRB filed a complaint against the Times, ruling the company violated federal labor law by telling some employees they could not show support for tech workers seeking to unionize.

FranzFerdiNaN 2y ago

Are you working 7 days a week in horrific circumstances? Do you have children as your colleagues? No? That’s due to unions and labourers fighting for the rights you currently have.

pixl97 2y ago
Heh, it terrifies me at times of how clueless of the past the general population is. We're already at the point in history where people like Bezos and Musk want to return to company cities with their own non-cash payment systems. The 1800's were horrific. It was not the industrial revolution alone that made things better. People had to fight and die in the labor movement for better outcomes for us now.
Cyph0n 2y ago
Unbelievable that this had to be spelled out. Do people actually think that current working conditions and employee rights were bestowed upon us by benevolent capitalists?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  When it comes to tech workers, not by benevolent capitalists, but by greedy capitalists. Up until say 2022 or so, the vast majority of people who worked in tech companies in the US were compensated extremely well (relatively) without unions, the reason being that (a) modern tech, especially software, can be such a "force multiplier" where a small team of programmers can serve millions of customers and (b) there really is a huge difference in individual programmer capability, and in winner-take-all/most markets, capitalists were willing to pay outsized amounts for those they deemed higher quality workers (meaning able to create higher quality/better/faster etc. products). We're at an inflection point now both with the general maturity of the Internet, and with AI, that the ability to capture huge parts of the market is less dependent on the skills of individual software engineers/product managers, etc. When you are less able to differentiate the quality of your labor against your peers, that is when unions become more desirable.
  - 2y ago

debunn 2y ago

The following is my personal experience being part of a collective bargaining union (OPSEU local 598), which encompassed a few hundred workers for Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, in Toronto Ontario, from 2007-2017. I worked in IT for the duration of my employment (although not all union members were IT - but a lot were.) The good: - An elected collective bargaining team negotiated for us every ~5 years, and came up with a collective bargaining agreement (CBA). This allowed the members to express their desires for what they wanted (although not all requests were brought up in bargaining, and had to be agreed to to be ratified), which were generally listened to - On-call compensation was set out as part of that agreement, and was the most generous I've experienced in my 25+ year career. - Members could file grievances with the union regarding work conditions, or unfair treatment of the workers (I don't recall hearing of this ever happening, but there were processes in place for it) - Health benefits were good, if not the best I've seen - You could get two pay bumps per year, one that all union members got that was set aside in the CBA, and another moving you up a spot in your pay band (but only if you were not at the top of your salary band) The bad: - Union dues, while not huge, were yet another noticeable deduction from each pay - When at the top of your salary band, you only got the one cost of living adjustment per year. There was no automatic way of moving to the next salary band - Getting promoted means applying for internally posted positions (which all employees can apply for), and successfully being hired in to that position. This is the only way to move up salary bands, and you could only move up one pay slot in the new band (as they overlapped between bands). This really limited upwards career growth, and meant that leaving the company was the only way to get double-digit pay increases (or move in to management, which was outside the union) - Our CBA strangely didn't cover / prevent layoffs of staff (although other union CBAs certainly do - so this is just my own experience), so I was one of the 100+ members that were laid off when a new VP decided to outsource a bunch of our roles to Tata Consultancy Services in India. There were provisions in place given my seniority that would have made a more junior union members have to be laid off in place of me (so I could take over their role instead), however I opted to take my severance package as I was ready to move on. So to summarize - unions are definitely a mixed bag in my experience. I can appreciate the good they can do (and different CBAs will result in wildly different experiences), but from what I've personally seen, they generally function to treat all workers in a similar way: not rewarding the best, and not really punishing the worst.