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Interesting that the keyboard for these[0] is not a QWERTY keyboard but instead has the buttons arranged alphabetically. That must be a pain in the ass to type
by marcellus23 2y ago
Interesting that the keyboard for these[0] is not a QWERTY keyboard but instead has the buttons arranged alphabetically. That must be a pain in the ass to type in. Is that because the tech is 50 years old from before QWERTY was the standard? Do newer planes have QWERTY?
0: https://acarsdrama.com/fmc.webp https://acarsdrama.com/fmc.webp
Unrelated, this one is cute: https://infosec.exchange/@acarsdrama/114194436695883209 https://infosec.exchange/@acarsdrama/114194436695883209
- joezydeco 2y agoEven if you did QWERTY, how would you arrange it in a 5x6 matrix?
- marcellus23 2y agoI was imagining the panel could be designed such that you wouldn't need to fit it in a 5x6 matrix.
- joezydeco 2y agoAvionics is the area that is the least tolerant of radical redesigns in human interfaces. This FMC form factor has been around a long time. There are newer ACARS/FMC systems that have an actual QWERTY keyboard. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2016/04/27/spectralux-launches-all-in-one-data-link-envoy-at-amcaeec/ https://www.aviationtoday.com/2016/04/27/spectralux-launches... Remember, also, that not all countries use QWERTY. France, one of the homes of Airbus, uses AZERTY. What should they do about their keyboards?
- cccbbbaaa 2y agoUse bépo, of course! More seriously, Airbus uses qwerty since at least the A380. This means that the A350 and the A330, two aircrafts that share a type rating, do not use the same layout.
- Suppafly 2y ago>Is that because the tech is 50 years old from before QWERTY was the standard? QWERTY predates electronic devices.
- marcellus23 2y agoTrue. Makes the decision even more baffling.
- esoterae 2y agoKeyboards in aircraft instrumentation certainly do NOT predate electronic devices. Given that one-handed operation for instrumentation is almost always the primary mode of interaction, and instrument panels are really just face-plates on quite deep electronic device containers, the idea of a widescreen panel hole profile just to fit the input keys in a different format/aspect ratio does not make sense. Some of the most interesting aviation research in the past few decades have been around human factors like psychology, perception, and cognition. If there was some substantial effect to having the buttons be arranged in a different pattern, I do legitimately hope it would have been found by now. Do keep in mind these devices are cost-prohibitive in the extreme to design, build, and certify. The idea of having separate, parallel processes in order to have a different button layout between regional devices creates a thousand headaches of its own, both before and after production. The issue goes even further, in that just the FAA alone requires simulators of these aircraft to have replicated button look and feel criteria that would make your head spin. Is there even going to be a question as to if you're going to have to have two simulators? Will type-ratings be transferrable? Will there be separate differences training and/or currency requirements between the two distinct input methods? Some or even most of those answers might turn out favorably for manufacturers or operators or pilots. But just having to ask them drives costs up considerably.
- marcellus23 2y agoThese are all very good points. Thanks for explaining!
- 2y ago
- the__alchemist 2y agoA lot of fighters have it even worse. Buttons around an MPD, or a T9-like system where number keys are overloaded for ~3 values each.
- dhosek 2y agoI think it’s long past time to reorder the alphabet to follow QWERTY order. It will make keyboarding much easier for children. We just need to write a new alphabet song.
- netsharc 2y agoDifferent languages have different keyboards (e.g. QWERTZ or AZERTY). I wonder what problems would happen if we reordered the alphabet... For one thing the ASCII ordering is now suddenly jumbled up. Maybe our great supreme intellectual leader Elon will issue Magacode to supersede Unicode, kym epcy epc ngy vky yxcohy!
- lxgr 2y agoSorting lists alphabetically would produce vastly different results by language, for one thing.
- wat10000 2y agoAlready a thing for some languages. For example, Hawaiian sorts its letters as A, E, I, O, U, H, K, L, M, N, P, W.
- jval43 2y agoCollation rules already differ by locale or language in many programming languages, libraries, and applications. This is necessary because the order of words or characters is sometimes only sensibly defined if you know the language a text is written in.
- b59831 2y ago[dead]
- codetrotter 2y agoFun fact about character ordering: Swedish sorting traditionally and officially treated v and w as equivalent, so that users would not have to guess whether the word, or name, they were seeking was spelled with a v or a w. The two letters were often combined in the collating sequence as if they were all v or all w, until 2006 when the 13th edition of Svenska Akademiens ordlista (The Swedish Academy's Orthographic Dictionary) declared a change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_alphabet
- sooperserieous 2y agoOooohhh!!! Back in the day I had an "opportunity" to implement a virtual CDU interface, even re-created that font to do it. It talked to a real FMC (and later anything on the ARINC 629 bus). Good times :)
- cccbbbaaa 2y agoI believe the A350 has it in qwerty.
- q3k 2y ago> That must be a pain in the ass to type in. You get used to it, same as you got used to a QWERTY keyboard. (note: this based on my experience often interacting with another device with an alphabetic keyboard, not an FMC)
- sooperserieous 2y agoYou do get used to it, but also the workflow is not entering words as much as it is things like waypoint codes, and a lot of numeric bits, which is why the number pad has its familiar layout.
- stronglikedan 2y ago> That must be a pain in the ass to type in. Only until you're used to it. Then it's just as natural as switching between a keypad with a 1 in the top left versus one with a 7 in the top left. Your brain just takes the wheel.
- bombcar 2y agoMany people don’t realize that a phone number pad and a keyboard one are opposite. They just use them.
- Al-Khwarizmi 2y agoI've just realized, thanks to your messages, after years of using the without a second thought...
- sdh9 2y agoYou don't really need to type long form text on it. The primary use of the keyboard on the MCDU is for the flight management computer, and aviation fix names are 3 or 5 letters at most. That is the primary design case for the keyboard. ACARS is secondary, and on a typical flight only a few long-form text messages are sent. Every aircraft that I've ever flown has an alphabetical keyboard. Typically horizontal space is valuable, yet vertical space is less valuable, so it's easy to make the keyboard long but not wide. However, as others pointed out, it seems to be changing in newer jets.
- closewith 2y agoQWERTY isn't universally used internationally, whereas the alphabet order is.
- lproven 2y ago> whereas the alphabet order is. I have news for you.
- tyingq 2y agoThere are ACARS devices with qwerty. Like https://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/spectralux-corporation/product-184706-40301.html https://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/spectralux-corporation/prod... Changing anything significant on an aircraft requires certification though. So you typically have to have a very good cause to do it.
- lxgr 2y agoMy guess would be: QWERTZ touch typing was not a common skill in most pilots at the time these were introduced, and an ABC layout is slightly more ergonomical than QWERTZ for users not familiar with either. Now that's changed, but changing the keyboard now would ruin older pilots' muscle memory.
- rounce 2y agoYou’re likely not touch typing with two hands anyway because it’s often down on the centre console. Besides they’re primarily used for entering flight info into the FMS, not for long form messages.