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I am a massive fan of Mark Roeper. Unfortunately he completely f**d up this one. He tested using Autopilot, not the latest FSD on HW4, which is worlds apart in
by desixavryn 2y ago
I am a massive fan of Mark Roeper. Unfortunately he completely f**d up this one.
He tested using Autopilot, not the latest FSD on HW4, which is worlds apart in capabilities.
It is possible that the latest FSD would also crash, but that would be a valid test of FSD capabilities.
Testing using Autopilot and calling it "FSD crashes" is a HUGE misrepresentation of facts.
I am hoping Mark will post an update to the video.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- sschueller 2y agoIf he doesn't know the difference how is the average car buyer that sees Elon sell such features supposed to know?
- bryanlarsen 2y agoIt's $8000 for FSD. You're going to know whether you bought it or not.
- zaptrem 2y agoTo be clear, this is like buying a car that has traffic aware cruise control available as an option, but turning it down, then insisting the TACC is broken and dangerous because it doesn’t work on your car.
- tredre3 2y agoThat's a poor analogy because what Mark was testing was emergency breaking and collision avoidance, which is part of Autopilot. https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#active-safety-features https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#active-safety-featur...
- zaptrem 2y agoThe title of the video says “Self Driving Car” which can and is misleading viewers into thinking it’s a test of Tesla’s “supervised Full Self Driving” product since they do not sell other products that use that term. FSD at one point had a significantly more advanced video to voxel model as part of the perception stack that possibly could have detected this wall (though I believe their planner is now end to end and only gets video input, so I’d be really interested to see if it fails here)
- stavros 2y agoTo be fair, the Tesla did definitely demonstrate full emergency breaking.
- crooked-v 2y agoba-dum tish
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- benatkin 2y agoHe didn’t completely f up, it was a valid test, and a misrepresentation of branding, not facts. The connotation of the name autopilot overlaps significantly with FSD. Nobody forced Tesla to name it that rather than enhanced cruise control or something. Testing a wider release rather than a more exclusive one meh.
- desixavryn 2y agoStill, watching the video people will take away that Tesla FSD is not safe (whereas only autopilot is relatively unsafe). Nothing can be further from the truth, considering I have been using some form of FSD/AutoPilot since it started. One very interesting things happens when you drive with FSD. Because the FSD in-cabin camera is watching you extremely closely, it is literally like having 2-drivers driving. I insist that my wife and kids drive with FSD, because then I know then that FSD is forcing them to watch the road. Think about that! Use the latest FSD on HW4 for a while (I do 90% of my drives with FSD) and make an informed decision. IMO, not using FSD is killing/hurting people.
- db48x 2y agoWhy do you say that? The autopilot of an airplane doesn’t dodge obstacles either.
- crooked-v 2y agoAll the other drive assistance systems out there with proximity radar would have detected the wall. None of them claim a grandiose name like 'autopilot'.
- gruez 2y ago>All the other drive assistance systems out there with proximity radar would have detected the wall All? Of the 30 cars tested, 7 got "Poor" grades for IIHS's "front crash prevention rating". I spot checked a few of the failing cars and they all supposedly use radar. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-make-big-strides-in-front-crash-prevention https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-make-big-strides...
- XorNot 2y agoWhy would FSD be any more capable? Like why would anyone expect that? I get how this could happen, but this isn't advanced navigation it's basic collision avoidance of things in front of the car, something I'd expect autopilot to do at a bare minimum.
- iknowstuff 2y agoEntirely different software stack.
- XorNot 2y agoLike I said, I get how this could happen. But it is wild for a company proposing they've "almost" solved FSD to not be able to execute basic collision avoidance - a core, fundamental capability of FSD - to not have deployed that capability into the hardware of a car they claim is completely capable of FSD with that hardware.
- iknowstuff 2y agoNo, collision avoidance has to put a greater degree of trust in the actual driver of the vehicle, the human, and only step in if it’s absolutely certain the human is about to hit something they did not intend to hit. For example, when Tesla detects that you are about to accelerate into a human or a wall, they slow down the acceleration so that you have time to react, but they don’t stop it altogether. That’s very different from FSD’s decision-making process.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Prickle 2y agoThat should also be entirely irrelevant. It's emergency breaking. There shouldn't be differing results on whether you paid an extra $8000 usd or not. FSD does not advertise better emergency breaking as a feature. (Last I checked anyway.)
- vasco 2y agoIf anything is misrepresenting it's both the name autopilot and the name "full self driving" for two things that neither are autopiloting or full self driving.
- razemio 2y agoI think I already had this discussion on HN. I am not sure why most people think autopilot is hands of the wheel without looking. There literally is no autopilot, which does not require constant attention from a human. This is true for planes, ships and cars. Hell this true even for most drones. FSD is very much correctly named. It does not say you can go for a sleep. It just means, the vehicle is capable of full self driving, which is true for most conditions and something most cars are not capable of. How would you have named it?
- crooked-v 2y ago> It does not say you can go for a sleep. That means, by definition, it's not "full" self driving.
- razemio 2y agoWhy? It is capable of full self driving. That has been proven numerous times. It is however not capable to do this all time. I ask again, give a better name that describes the function FSD currently offers. It is most certainly not a lane assist.
- cwillu 2y agoIf I'm on a road trip with somebody, and they're driving, I expect to be able to sleep in the passenger seat. “Full” implies that level of competence, which includes knowing its own limitations and therefore when to pull over. I can think of half a dozen terms off the top of my head that would better describe what its doing, but they aren't quite as punchy, and critically, they won't give the impression that the car is capable of functioning without oversight. Being able to obliquely claim-without-claiming is very much the point of the current terminology. * trip control * trip assist * co-pilot * auto steer and throttle * partial self-driving (i.e., what it's actually doing!) * hands-free steering
- quink 2y agoHere's what the official Tesla website has to say about FSD vs. Autopilot: > In addition to the functionality and features of Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot, Full Self-Driving capability also includes: > > Traffic and Stop Sign Control (Beta): Identifies stop signs and traffic lights and automatically slows your vehicle to a stop on approach, with your active supervision. > > Upcoming: Autostreer on city streets Since I don't see a stop sign, or a traffic light, I cannot imagine how that makes any difference or can in any way be considered a complete f*k up, or how that's a "HUGE misrepresentation of facts". These things, listed here copied verbatim from the website of the manufacturer, are completely irrelevant to what was being tested here. It's like arguing that a crash test is invalid because the crash test dummy had a red shirt instead of a yellow one.
- quink 2y agoFurthermore: > Active Safety Features > > Active safety features come standard on all Tesla vehicles made after September 2014 for elevated protection at all times. These features are made possible by our Autopilot hardware and software system [...] No mention of FSD anywhere in that section. Tesla fanboys, pack it in.
- iknowstuff 2y agoIt wasnt even on autopilot when he crashed it. At best, he was testing automatic collision avoidance while pressing the accelerator, not autonomy.
- mbreese 2y agoYou see how this is worse, right? If automatic collision avoidance doesn’t work, why would you expect FSD to do better? (Or more to the point - why would a prospective buyer think so?) And if collision avoidance doesn’t work better, then why isn’t FSD enabled on all cars — in order to fulfill this basic safety function that should work on all Teslas. Either way you look at it, this isn’t good. Expecting owners to buy an $8K upgrade to get automatic stopping to work is a bit much. Step one - get automatic stopping to work, then we can talk about me spending more money for FSD. (And yes, I’m still bitter that my radar sensor was disabled).
- iknowstuff 2y agoTeslas automatic collision avoidance is the best on the market lol you can trivially google it
- nickthegreek 2y agoThis video literally shows you otherwise.
- iknowstuff 2y agoThe other car is not for sale. The video is sponsored by the lidar manufacturer.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoBro he faked the video. How gullible you have to be...
- nickthegreek 2y ago
- timeon 2y agoI'm afraid HW4 is still not lidar-like.
- TheAlchemist 2y agoThe good old argument about the "latest" version on the "latest" hardware... As Tesla influencers have been saying for the past 5 years 'it will blow your mind'. In the very first phrase he says "I'm in my Tesla on Autopilot"...
- modeless 2y agoThe video title says "self driving car". This is clearly dishonest when they intentionally did not test the feature named "self driving" in the car shown in the video thumbnail, nor disclose the fact that such a feature does exist and is significantly better than what they tested. This video is a real missed opportunity. I would love to see how FSD would handle this and I hope someone else takes the opportunity to test it. In fact, testing FSD is such a trivially obvious idea that the fact that it's not even mentioned in the video makes me suspicious that they did test it and the results didn't match the narrative they wanted.
- thunky 2y ago> He tested using Autopilot, not the latest FSD on HW4, which is worlds apart in capabilities Unless HW4 adds lidar then it doesn't matter. The video shows lidar outperforming cameras.
- root_axis 2y agoSo are you suggesting the 8k upgrade can detect some dangerous obstacles that the standard version can't? I doubt that.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoHe tested AEB, you can see autopilot is disabled right after the cut: https://youtu.be/IQJL3htsDyQ?t=942 https://youtu.be/IQJL3htsDyQ?t=942 This is faked as hell.
- Prickle 2y agoHe's testing emergency breaking. It's not some pay-to-receive service surely? It should be always on, regardless of Autopilot or FSD. It has come as a default feature with many new vehicles in the modern age. Are you trying to say that Tesla's FSD emergency breaking and AutoPilot emergency breaking are different? It's emergency breaking. None of that should matter. And if it does matter, we are dealing with the possibility that Tesla is selling a deliberately worse product at a lower price point, in exchange for risking the lives of drivers and passengers. There really is no meaningful difference here, because the result SHOULD be the same, regardless of what feature was enabled or disabled.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoI'm also a massive fan of people and spell their name wrong.
- Whatarethese 2y agoAP should be able to handle this and could if you used a lidar equipped Tesla from prior years before they went to pure vision.
- ModernMech 2y agoThey never had LiDAR; they did have RADAR but removed that.
- ziggure 2y agoHe never said he was testing FSD. He referred to it as Autopilot throughout the video.