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We need to be honest about what value Firefox really has left. Commercially, it's completely irrelevant. On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10

We need to be honest about what value Firefox really has left. Commercially, it's completely irrelevant. On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10 browsers and it's almost entirely absent on mobile. Site owners can readily ignore Firefox. Firefox is no longer a developer default. I'm sure some of us in our bubble have strong personal preferences but the entire dev ecosystem is chrome-based. Very advanced devtools, Google having a team of "evangelists", course material is Chrome-based, test-automation, etc. So developers too can ignore Firefox. Some argue that it's good to have an independent rendering engine. Here too Firefox plays no role at all. The only counter force to Google's web feature roadmap is Apple/Webkit, not Mozilla. From a privacy preserving perspective, Firefox has no unique value. Install Brave, say no to the one-time crypto pop-up, and you have a very decent and fast browser that also consistently renders along with Chrome and Edge. I use Firefox. If I ask myself why, it's muscle memory and because uBlock Origin still works.

qwerpy 2y ago
I use Brave and am satisfied with it. The occasional hassle involved in turning things off when a new unwanted feature shows up or when I have to install it on a new machine is worth it for uBlock Origin and the Chromium performance and compatibility. However the theoretical downside of Brave is that as Google continues changing Chromium's codebase, there's incentive for them to make it harder and harder to maintain a manifest v2-enabled fork. Wouldn't be surprised if extensive refactors randomly happen that multiply the effort needed to merge changes from upstream while maintaining the v2 capability. And how motivated is Brave to do all this labor? At some point they're going to say the tax is too high, we have a nice built-in ad blocker anyway, just use that. A well-maintained, funded, and focused Firefox would be a good thing for when that day comes.
- porridgeraisin 2y ago
  Brave does not need manifest v2 for it's ad blocker to work. It is not implemented as an extension. It is built into the browser itself.
  - qwerpy 2y ago
    Right but in my non-scientific test I found uBlock to work better so I don’t use the Brave blocker. My prediction is that Brave will eventually say that it’s too costly to maintain v2 in their fork and that people should just use the Brave blocker.
    - porridgeraisin 2y ago
      Interesting. What are you noticing? I might run ublock on top as well if it's worth it.
      - mastazi 2y ago
        Brave has built-in functionality that can replace uBO, but it doesn't replace all of the other Manifestv2-only extensions that are not necessarily adblockers. For example https://libredirect.github.io/faq.html#chrome_web_store https://libredirect.github.io/faq.html#chrome_web_store > We can't publish LibRedirect to the Chrome Web Store as it requires Manifest v3, which removed essential features that LibRedirect needs. uBlock Origin is just the tip of the iceberg since it's the most popular one, there is an entire ecosystem of Mv2 extensions that can never be replaced by Brave's built in functionality
        porridgeraisin 2y ago
        My parent poster and I mentioned specifically ublock origin features
    - notpushkin 2y ago
      I’m wondering why Chrome forks don’t just maintain a shared patch enabling MV2. That said, uBlock Origin works best on Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
  - lordofgibbons 2y ago
    Does the default Brave ad blocker block Youtube ads?
apeace 2y ago
How does Brave survive financially?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > How does Brave survive financially? Crypto [1]. [1] https://brave.com/wallet/ https://brave.com/wallet/
  - dralley 2y ago
    Also it's just a Chrome / Blink derivative. They don't actually have an independent web stack like Mozilla does. That independent stack requires a lot of developer effort to maintain.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    They sell traditional browser and search ads. https://ads-help.brave.com/ https://ads-help.brave.com/ The crypto thing is more a moonshot. Instead of selling their default search engine they do their own and capture the value themselves.
magicmicah85 2y ago
I use Firefox for Container tabs. It’s useful for sites where I can’t have multiple tabs opened to same site but different login. That’s my main reason for sticking to Firefox.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Container tabs is the most useful browser feature anywhere. Now if they would just add tab history tracking.
  - vkou 2y ago
    Their current market share is 3%. What do you think it will be once they add tab history tracking, and every other feature under the sun that you think their browser should have?
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      I use Firefox and I tell everyone in know about ublock. If chrome is force divested the browser market is going to look very different.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  just curious - why not use browser profiles available in Chrome/Brave…?
  - zwayhowder 2y ago
    It's not even on the same level. Container tabs as the name implies are all in the same window, and you can program them, for example always open up google.com domains in my Google container, while opening amazon.com in my shopping container. This keeps the cookies separate and means you are tracked less. Yes you can manually do this with Chrome profiles, but before this feature was introduced into Firefox I had a dozen or more Chrome profiles to keep all my work, community and personal Google/Microsoft logins separate.
catlikesshrimp 2y ago
Neither Safari nor -B- are opensource. Brave is even chromium based. EDIT: Brave is opensource
- e44858 2y ago
  Brave appears to be opensource: https://github.com/brave/brave-browser https://github.com/brave/brave-browser
- dntbrsnbl 2y ago
  Brave is definitely open source [1] (under the MPL)? The source for Safari is closed, but their rendering engine is completely open source [2]. [1]: https://github.com/brave/brave-core https://github.com/brave/brave-core [2]: https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit
- jmb99 2y ago
  While Safari is not open source, WebKit is[0]. [0] https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit
  - culi 2y ago
    Yup, Bun uses WebKit. And even credited it for why it was able to achieve such better performance than Node
benatkin 2y ago
It's to the point where there doesn't seem to be much left to lose. Anything is worth trying. Their CEO should definitely be out the door. Still, I won't be holding my breath. They're hostile to their community, developers who want to work on web technologies, and to the open web. https://www.theregister.com/Tag/Firefox/ https://www.theregister.com/Tag/Firefox/ So I am glad to see this page full of signatures. It might not help, but it won't hurt either.
wackget 2y ago
> Firefox is no longer a developer default Web developer here, and Chrome dev tools suck balls. I exclusively use Firefox.
- winrid 2y ago
  Yeah, the chrome dev tools seem to have gotten worse over the last 10yrs. Basic CSS editing stuff breaks all the time.
  - culi 2y ago
    Firefox has always been ahead of the game when it comes to devtools. It's pretty recent that Chrome has differentiated itself from Safari-tier crap devtools
- chilldsgn 2y ago
  Same. I absolutely hate using Chrome dev tools. It's because of the dev tools I still use Firefox.
kevwil 2y ago
> Some argue that it's good to have an independent rendering engine. Here too Firefox plays no role at all. The only counter force to Google's web feature roadmap is Apple/Webkit, not Mozilla. I'd like to understand this point better. Does Firefox use the Chromium engine under the hood?
- mythmon_ 2y ago
  It doesn't use Chromium. I think that their point is that Firefox's rendering engine, Gecko, can only have an impact on the rendering engine space proportional to its user base, which they have argued is insignificant.
- javchz 2y ago
  Nope, Firefox still uses its own rendering engine and JavaScript engine—except on iOS, where it's essentially Safari with a UI wrapper. But that’s due to Apple’s ToS, not Firefox’s fault. I assume the previous comment was about market share. It’s low, yes, but I still think Firefox has influence despite that. Having a third rendering engine is valuable—especially now, after Microsoft killed IE/Edge and turned it into a Chromium fork. The percentage might not be high, but the people who use Firefox are usually the ones pushing for keeping the web an open standard.
brooke2k 2y ago
I have never once had an issue with a website that was solved by opening it in Chrome instead. and I switched to firefox like three years ago. If firefox is so much less supported, I'm not seeing it at least
- hinkley 2y ago
  I switched to firefox when Firebug came out. I haven't switched since, although I spend a lot of time on iOS so maybe half my browsing is FF. I'm sure I've seen a few things not work on FF, but not many, and likely things that would break on Safari too (I've had govt stuff just not work on tablet safari for sure).
- derkster 2y ago
  I've been bringing this up in every single thread about Chrome and Manifest V3 pops up. I'm been using Firefox, 100% of the time, on three different operating systems, for probably six years at this point. I can remember a single time I had to swap to Chrome for something, and it was three years ago, and involved some flavor of WebAssembly, I believe. If anyone can point out a current website that is acting up under Firefox and not Chrome, please post it. I just want want to know that the "Firefox is inferior" argument isn't a decade old echo.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    Snyk
    - derkster 2y ago
      Any feature specifically? I added a project+repo, and it scanned and reported successfully - but this is only the free tier.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        IIRC it was related to viewing vulnerabilities or integrations. ZenDesk is another, related to their SSO logins. Unfortunately once bitten I become twice shy. These kind of works-in-popular-browser circumstances pushed me to making my own browser navigation switcher, so I never have to worry about any one site again. Of course that also means that even if they fix it in Ff then I won't notice. (It also doesn't help that Manifest V3 has taken a while for me to support and Apple keeps changing things.)
fireburning 2y ago
these threads really are ads huh? hilarious
charles_f 2y ago
> On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10 browsers and it's almost entirely absent on mobile I'm not too sure why it's majorly relevant. The fact that it's not popular doesn't make it any less of a desirable option > From a privacy preserving perspective, Firefox has no unique value Similarly, the fact that it's not unique is somewhat irrelevant. Though the thing that's scary is what they removed from their terms and conditions.
culi 2y ago
Chrome users are often really familiar with Chrome's devtools and think Firefox is behind because they have trouble finding their way around FireFox's devtools. Truth is that Firefox built a reputation for itself amongst developers specifically because of it's very advanced devtools. Chrome has mostly caught up, but I'd still place Firefox ahead here Besides that, uBlock Origin, Bypass Paywalls Clean, and AdNauseum working have been enough of an argument for me to be able to convince my friends to make the switch.
vlad-roundabout 2y ago
Even better than Brave is a "no-name" browser like Ungoogled Chromium made to protect actual privacy, not the interests of some company!
- hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
  No thinly-modified version of Chromium is going to save us from Google having almost unilateral power over the implementation of web standards, creating a browser monoculture. None of these forks is making substantive changes to the browser engine; it's often just Chromium with a few configuration tweaks and cosmetic enhancements.
  - vlad-roundabout 2y ago
    I agree a Firefox or WebKit browser would be better, but give me one.
TimByte 2y ago
I still think having an independent browser matters... especially as Google tightens its grip on the web
internet_points 2y ago
Those arguments all sound like "We nearly have a monoculture so let's embrace the monoculture and give up". The downward curve needs to be counter-acted, not accelerated.
greenchair 2y ago
good points. I use it for a very specific plugin which the author only makes available on that platform.
user3939382 2y ago
Firefox on iOS has a feature called “Turn on Night Mode” which can color invert any page. I use it about 100x a day and couldn’t find it anywhere else. A perfect example of why we need options.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
NoGravitas 2y ago
It's true that Apple has the only independent browser engine that has enough users to make developers cater to it. But it's also true that Mozilla has seats on the relevant standards bodies, and on privacy-related issues, their presence helps act as a counterweight along with Apple.
ac29 2y ago
> Commercially, it's completely irrelevant. On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10 browsers Chrome, Edge and Safari are all bigger than Firefox. But Firefox not in the top ten results? Unless you are counting different versions of browsers as unique entries, I cant imagine what other 7+ browsers are bigger than Firefox.
Hyperboreanal 2y ago
Firefox wins handily on the following: - Sidebery (tree style vertical tabs) - userChrome.css editing - Stylus and all other manifest v2 extensions that Brave won't be developing custom replacements for - Better performance with lots of tabs/windows - Container tabs Firefox is better for powerusers and those who like customization, Chrome is better for those who don't care about customization and just watch Netflix. Pretty much equivalent to the Android/iOS debate.

qwerpy 2y ago

I use Brave and am satisfied with it. The occasional hassle involved in turning things off when a new unwanted feature shows up or when I have to install it on a new machine is worth it for uBlock Origin and the Chromium performance and compatibility. However the theoretical downside of Brave is that as Google continues changing Chromium's codebase, there's incentive for them to make it harder and harder to maintain a manifest v2-enabled fork. Wouldn't be surprised if extensive refactors randomly happen that multiply the effort needed to merge changes from upstream while maintaining the v2 capability. And how motivated is Brave to do all this labor? At some point they're going to say the tax is too high, we have a nice built-in ad blocker anyway, just use that. A well-maintained, funded, and focused Firefox would be a good thing for when that day comes.

porridgeraisin 2y ago
Brave does not need manifest v2 for it's ad blocker to work. It is not implemented as an extension. It is built into the browser itself.
- qwerpy 2y ago
  Right but in my non-scientific test I found uBlock to work better so I don’t use the Brave blocker. My prediction is that Brave will eventually say that it’s too costly to maintain v2 in their fork and that people should just use the Brave blocker.
  - porridgeraisin 2y ago
    Interesting. What are you noticing? I might run ublock on top as well if it's worth it.
    - mastazi 2y ago
      Brave has built-in functionality that can replace uBO, but it doesn't replace all of the other Manifestv2-only extensions that are not necessarily adblockers. For example https://libredirect.github.io/faq.html#chrome_web_store https://libredirect.github.io/faq.html#chrome_web_store > We can't publish LibRedirect to the Chrome Web Store as it requires Manifest v3, which removed essential features that LibRedirect needs. uBlock Origin is just the tip of the iceberg since it's the most popular one, there is an entire ecosystem of Mv2 extensions that can never be replaced by Brave's built in functionality
      - porridgeraisin 2y ago
        My parent poster and I mentioned specifically ublock origin features
  - notpushkin 2y ago
    I’m wondering why Chrome forks don’t just maintain a shared patch enabling MV2. That said, uBlock Origin works best on Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
- lordofgibbons 2y ago
  Does the default Brave ad blocker block Youtube ads?

apeace 2y ago

How does Brave survive financially?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> How does Brave survive financially? Crypto [1]. [1] https://brave.com/wallet/ https://brave.com/wallet/
- dralley 2y ago
  Also it's just a Chrome / Blink derivative. They don't actually have an independent web stack like Mozilla does. That independent stack requires a lot of developer effort to maintain.
- Spivak 2y ago
  They sell traditional browser and search ads. https://ads-help.brave.com/ https://ads-help.brave.com/ The crypto thing is more a moonshot. Instead of selling their default search engine they do their own and capture the value themselves.

magicmicah85 2y ago

I use Firefox for Container tabs. It’s useful for sites where I can’t have multiple tabs opened to same site but different login. That’s my main reason for sticking to Firefox.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Container tabs is the most useful browser feature anywhere. Now if they would just add tab history tracking.
- vkou 2y ago
  Their current market share is 3%. What do you think it will be once they add tab history tracking, and every other feature under the sun that you think their browser should have?
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I use Firefox and I tell everyone in know about ublock. If chrome is force divested the browser market is going to look very different.
bdangubic 2y ago
just curious - why not use browser profiles available in Chrome/Brave…?
- zwayhowder 2y ago
  It's not even on the same level. Container tabs as the name implies are all in the same window, and you can program them, for example always open up google.com domains in my Google container, while opening amazon.com in my shopping container. This keeps the cookies separate and means you are tracked less. Yes you can manually do this with Chrome profiles, but before this feature was introduced into Firefox I had a dozen or more Chrome profiles to keep all my work, community and personal Google/Microsoft logins separate.

catlikesshrimp 2y ago

Neither Safari nor -B- are opensource. Brave is even chromium based. EDIT: Brave is opensource

e44858 2y ago
Brave appears to be opensource: https://github.com/brave/brave-browser https://github.com/brave/brave-browser
dntbrsnbl 2y ago
Brave is definitely open source [1] (under the MPL)? The source for Safari is closed, but their rendering engine is completely open source [2]. [1]: https://github.com/brave/brave-core https://github.com/brave/brave-core [2]: https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit
jmb99 2y ago
While Safari is not open source, WebKit is[0]. [0] https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit
- culi 2y ago
  Yup, Bun uses WebKit. And even credited it for why it was able to achieve such better performance than Node

benatkin 2y ago

It's to the point where there doesn't seem to be much left to lose. Anything is worth trying. Their CEO should definitely be out the door. Still, I won't be holding my breath. They're hostile to their community, developers who want to work on web technologies, and to the open web. https://www.theregister.com/Tag/Firefox/ https://www.theregister.com/Tag/Firefox/ So I am glad to see this page full of signatures. It might not help, but it won't hurt either.

wackget 2y ago

> Firefox is no longer a developer default Web developer here, and Chrome dev tools suck balls. I exclusively use Firefox.

winrid 2y ago
Yeah, the chrome dev tools seem to have gotten worse over the last 10yrs. Basic CSS editing stuff breaks all the time.
- culi 2y ago
  Firefox has always been ahead of the game when it comes to devtools. It's pretty recent that Chrome has differentiated itself from Safari-tier crap devtools
chilldsgn 2y ago
Same. I absolutely hate using Chrome dev tools. It's because of the dev tools I still use Firefox.

kevwil 2y ago

> Some argue that it's good to have an independent rendering engine. Here too Firefox plays no role at all. The only counter force to Google's web feature roadmap is Apple/Webkit, not Mozilla. I'd like to understand this point better. Does Firefox use the Chromium engine under the hood?

mythmon_ 2y ago
It doesn't use Chromium. I think that their point is that Firefox's rendering engine, Gecko, can only have an impact on the rendering engine space proportional to its user base, which they have argued is insignificant.
javchz 2y ago
Nope, Firefox still uses its own rendering engine and JavaScript engine—except on iOS, where it's essentially Safari with a UI wrapper. But that’s due to Apple’s ToS, not Firefox’s fault. I assume the previous comment was about market share. It’s low, yes, but I still think Firefox has influence despite that. Having a third rendering engine is valuable—especially now, after Microsoft killed IE/Edge and turned it into a Chromium fork. The percentage might not be high, but the people who use Firefox are usually the ones pushing for keeping the web an open standard.

brooke2k 2y ago

I have never once had an issue with a website that was solved by opening it in Chrome instead. and I switched to firefox like three years ago. If firefox is so much less supported, I'm not seeing it at least

hinkley 2y ago
I switched to firefox when Firebug came out. I haven't switched since, although I spend a lot of time on iOS so maybe half my browsing is FF. I'm sure I've seen a few things not work on FF, but not many, and likely things that would break on Safari too (I've had govt stuff just not work on tablet safari for sure).
derkster 2y ago
I've been bringing this up in every single thread about Chrome and Manifest V3 pops up. I'm been using Firefox, 100% of the time, on three different operating systems, for probably six years at this point. I can remember a single time I had to swap to Chrome for something, and it was three years ago, and involved some flavor of WebAssembly, I believe. If anyone can point out a current website that is acting up under Firefox and not Chrome, please post it. I just want want to know that the "Firefox is inferior" argument isn't a decade old echo.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Snyk
  - derkster 2y ago
    Any feature specifically? I added a project+repo, and it scanned and reported successfully - but this is only the free tier.
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      IIRC it was related to viewing vulnerabilities or integrations. ZenDesk is another, related to their SSO logins. Unfortunately once bitten I become twice shy. These kind of works-in-popular-browser circumstances pushed me to making my own browser navigation switcher, so I never have to worry about any one site again. Of course that also means that even if they fix it in Ff then I won't notice. (It also doesn't help that Manifest V3 has taken a while for me to support and Apple keeps changing things.)

fireburning 2y ago

these threads really are ads huh? hilarious

charles_f 2y ago

> On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10 browsers and it's almost entirely absent on mobile I'm not too sure why it's majorly relevant. The fact that it's not popular doesn't make it any less of a desirable option > From a privacy preserving perspective, Firefox has no unique value Similarly, the fact that it's not unique is somewhat irrelevant. Though the thing that's scary is what they removed from their terms and conditions.

culi 2y ago

Chrome users are often really familiar with Chrome's devtools and think Firefox is behind because they have trouble finding their way around FireFox's devtools. Truth is that Firefox built a reputation for itself amongst developers specifically because of it's very advanced devtools. Chrome has mostly caught up, but I'd still place Firefox ahead here Besides that, uBlock Origin, Bypass Paywalls Clean, and AdNauseum working have been enough of an argument for me to be able to convince my friends to make the switch.

vlad-roundabout 2y ago

Even better than Brave is a "no-name" browser like Ungoogled Chromium made to protect actual privacy, not the interests of some company!

hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
No thinly-modified version of Chromium is going to save us from Google having almost unilateral power over the implementation of web standards, creating a browser monoculture. None of these forks is making substantive changes to the browser engine; it's often just Chromium with a few configuration tweaks and cosmetic enhancements.
- vlad-roundabout 2y ago
  I agree a Firefox or WebKit browser would be better, but give me one.

TimByte 2y ago

I still think having an independent browser matters... especially as Google tightens its grip on the web

internet_points 2y ago

Those arguments all sound like "We nearly have a monoculture so let's embrace the monoculture and give up". The downward curve needs to be counter-acted, not accelerated.

greenchair 2y ago

good points. I use it for a very specific plugin which the author only makes available on that platform.

user3939382 2y ago

Firefox on iOS has a feature called “Turn on Night Mode” which can color invert any page. I use it about 100x a day and couldn’t find it anywhere else. A perfect example of why we need options.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

NoGravitas 2y ago

It's true that Apple has the only independent browser engine that has enough users to make developers cater to it. But it's also true that Mozilla has seats on the relevant standards bodies, and on privacy-related issues, their presence helps act as a counterweight along with Apple.

ac29 2y ago

> Commercially, it's completely irrelevant. On big websites it doesn't even show up in the top 10 browsers Chrome, Edge and Safari are all bigger than Firefox. But Firefox not in the top ten results? Unless you are counting different versions of browsers as unique entries, I cant imagine what other 7+ browsers are bigger than Firefox.

Hyperboreanal 2y ago

Firefox wins handily on the following: - Sidebery (tree style vertical tabs) - userChrome.css editing - Stylus and all other manifest v2 extensions that Brave won't be developing custom replacements for - Better performance with lots of tabs/windows - Container tabs Firefox is better for powerusers and those who like customization, Chrome is better for those who don't care about customization and just watch Netflix. Pretty much equivalent to the Android/iOS debate.