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India's Battle to Control the Democracy Narrative

71 points by ethan_smith 2y ago

vmurthy 2y ago
A few things that stand out (not that it's that shocking!) - Narratives matter -- a lot . Second order effects of such subjective rankings are real . Imagine getting a credit downgrade because someone perceives the democracy to be under threat - "the government had reverse-engineered the ranking, strategically identifying procedural tweaks that directly boosted India’s scores in Delhi and Mumbai—the two cities evaluated by the World Bank" . I love the whole cynical nature of this. This is statecraft at it's finest ( I render no moral judgements here :) ). This is reminiscent of Machiavelli or Kautilya (Chanakya) [0] A lot more to digest but will post them as a reply on this thread. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya
- whatshisface 2y ago
  Statecraft at its finest? Next, I'll hear that KPI manipulation sets the standard for good engineering...
  - kaycey2022 2y ago
    The real question is why did anyone even think KPIs were effective in the first place.
    - Guthur 2y ago
      Exactly, I'm sure Boeing and Intel both had KPIs coming out the walls but both have had major engineering issues recently.
  - labster 2y ago
    I don’t know, I get the feeling Sir Humphrey would approve of this fine piece of statecraft (unless of course it was an adversary of Her Majesty’s government, in which case he would be appropriately concerned)
  - vmurthy 2y ago
    I agree re KPIs and engineering. But, statecraft is people. You’re not dealing with bits :)
recursivedoubts 2y ago
thank goodness i live in a country in which the government doesn't attempt to control the narrative around democracy
- Yoric 2y ago
  or free speech?
- BowBun 2y ago
  Before someone bites the bait - this comment is sarcastic and 100% of democratic societies spend resources to control the narrative around their government/country/whatever. 100%.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    It doesn't help that the nature of "democracy" is itself endlessly contested. E.g. both supporters and critics of the way Romanian courts have treated Georgescu seem to claim they are "defending democracy". There are important advantages to a social contract which is simple and unambiguous.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      I am pretty shocked at that Romanian court ruling though. It seems like the entire questioning of the election outcomes was motivated by EU leadership not liking the result of democracy. The decision to not stop at redoing the election but to then ban the candidate seems motivated by the fact that opinion polls show him to still be winning even today despite the alleged “election interference”, months after he won the first election. It’s weird seeing the EU conduct elections sort of like Russia does, ironically. In the past I viewed the EU as supporting things like free speech and democracy in the same way America does.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        Isn't it Romania, and not the EU? Also, what do you do about election manipulation? 'Nothing' isn't an acceptable answer.
geodel 2y ago
> Western standards didn’t apply here. India had its own definition of democracy. I think this is core thrust of narrative of Indian state and its card carrying supporters. On ideological part this of course makes sense. But practical aspect of cheap cost of informational bit vs physical bit that makes state so obsessed with this. As it makes so easily achievable. It would be very much clear to anyone who do not spend whole life on social media dream world in India that physical infrastructure will not be reaching of western standards at least in this century. On the other hand informational infrastructure very much reachable if not already reached. Consider Indian companies do so much information /data processing for West already. Hence all emphasis and obsession on narrative building.
- pm90 2y ago
  I disagree with the physical infrastructure bit. Indian Govt has invested massively in all kinds of infrastructure and they don’t seem to be slowing down. All of this has already paid off massive dividends and will continue to accelerate development.
  - geodel 2y ago
    Physical infrastructure will keep improving but at some point one has to have a sense of proportion on what is realistically possible. My three visits to India in past 2-3 years has given me first hand experience on how stunningly crappy infrastructure and system managing that infrastructure is compared to first world. To be fair though it may be better than lot of other poorer nations.
rayiner 2y ago
Modi has the highest approval rating, according to western pollsters, of any leader in the world. India’s elections are free and fair. That’s all democracy requires. Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy. Shadi Hamid has done excellent work on this issue: https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-america-the-middle-east-and-the-rise-and-fall-of-an-idea https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-ame...; see also https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of-democracy-by-shadi-hamid-review-democracy-and-its-discontents https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of...
- shipp02 2y ago
  The Guardian article is interesting because it helped untangle the idea of liberalism and democracy in my mind. How did they become so deeply linked?
  - morkalork 2y ago
    Because illiberals, when realizing their beliefs aren't all that popular, don't tend to pack it in and give it up to democracy.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    Democracy means that people can vote. Liberalism means they get to choose who to vote for.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > India’s elections are free and fair. Are they, when people opposing one candidate are jailed? > That’s all democracy requires. That is certainly false. Democracy isn't mob rule, or as the saying go, it's not two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Democracy is about self-determination for each person; if people in minority don't have self-determination, it's not democracy at all.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
shipp02 2y ago
A pivotal quote in the article: >How could theocratic states with no separation of religion and government score higher than India? How could a country with universal suffrage and constitutional rights rank below nations that didn’t even hold elections? Since the article talks quite a bit about Sanjeev Sanyal, I think it might be interesting to point to some of his podcasts. Like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW-mH4qIOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW-mH4qIOQ. Here he points out how the media has misrepresented India and exaggerated and sensationalized issues. Similarly, India has taken criticism from the West over its more ambitious projects like Sardar Vallabhai Patel's statue, and the space program. So taking the West's word with a grain of salt is quite valid. Further, the article points out that the government is trying to game the ranking while outwardly saying that they don't matter. This seems hypocritical at first glance but it also points out that having lower rankings affects investor confidence and borrowing rates. You can be against a broken system while still trying to appease it because it's not going to change immediately. The Indian Government needs to work within the system until something better can be created. I am not fully supportive of everything the NDA government has done but I don't think there is another leader in India who can feasibly win an election right now and I refuse to support INC until they get rid of the Gandhi dynasty. Also, please look at the podcast from this timestamp[2], where he further shows why people in general but Indians specifically should be skeptical of Western narratives. This is also supported by the book Unnatural Selection by Mara Hvistendahl [2]:https://youtu.be/gNVMvlfMbCU?list=PLgZQtm7d9Z1K9TCynoA3S0QWv9aqtTnqB&t=1161 https://youtu.be/gNVMvlfMbCU?list=PLgZQtm7d9Z1K9TCynoA3S0QWv...
- ViktorRay 2y ago
  Sometimes I do find it bizzare when western media praises a theocratic absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia for “modernizing” (by allowing women to drive and allowing them to not have chaperones) while simultaneously these same media organizations accuse a constitutional liberal democracy like India (which has strict separation of powers and an active independent Supreme Court) of somehow being authoritarian or fascist or some other slur.
  - pm90 2y ago
    The BJP is certainly authoritarian and fascistic, this is not contested. The country itself though probably isn’t. They failed to get an outright majority in the recent elections, and perhaps the main reason they still win is the opposition is completely incapable of reform (like the OP said they keep putting up members of the Gandhi family despite them losing elections repeatedly).
mandeepj 2y ago
Middle class (Upper, middle, and lower) are crushed into shambles. The Rich and those who can gather means are leaving the country at an alarming rate. The fake leader is worried about his narrative and ratings.
- throwaway7783 2y ago
  Wait, what? When did this happen. This is not the India I live in. India is fluid, complex beast. Your comment reads like propaganda.
- AliveShine 2y ago
  that is true almost everywhere in the world today.
jongjong 2y ago
As I get older, I realize increasingly that there is a huge gap between how most people think the government works and how it actually works... Also, the government and other entities which benefit from the incongruity spend a massive amount of effort constructing narratives to obscure the discrepancy in the public eye. If you boil it down and peek beneath the many layers of complexity and misdirection, reality is disturbingly dark and you wonder how society functions at all and how so many people can be fooled into believing surface narratives... But in a way, it's because people are fooled that society can function as-is, in spite of its dysfunction. If people knew how the system really worked, it would have to change. IMO, the good news is that generally, when the system is forced to change to become more transparent, things improve. But the system is always at the edge; constantly gaslighting the public as much as it can get away with at any given time. The state rarely apologizes for past mistakes; unless it serves some new agenda which it benefits from (e.g. the mistake happened under different leadership). There should be some rule like "The state is precisely as corrupt as it can get away with." Or "The state is corrupt proportionally to how passive and delusional its citizens are."
- mmooss 2y ago
  > the good news is that generally, when the system is forced to change to become more transparent Is that what is happening now?
  - jongjong 2y ago
    Well compare things now with how they were during feudalism. Things are a bit better for the average person. The problem we have now is that the population is extremely propagandized/delusional due to powerful media, made possible by technology. But the same technologies can also create more transparency... Or the technology may cause more skepticism which is also good; e.g. As AI generates fake videos, people will adapt to be more skeptical.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      > compare things now with how they were during feudalism. Things are a bit better for the average person. That is really looking at the long run! :D I hope for improvement on a shorter timeline, myself. All those average people are dead. > powerful media If you include social media, I'm with you. > As AI generates fake videos, people will adapt to be more skeptical. You said, and I agree, that people have become "extremely propagandized/delusional" due to prior tech development; why would AI tech have different outcomes?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
quantum_state 2y ago
Would say India is big enough country with enough people and knows how to take care of its own business, democracy or others.
- mmooss 2y ago
  How does size indicate that? Many big countries have done horrible things.
  - geodel 2y ago
    Of course. In above comment take care is doing heavy lifting.
profsummergig 2y ago
I once took a deep dive into the methodology of one of the custodians of "democracy rankings". It is one of the 2 most popular custodians. Their methodology for each country was different. For India their methodology was to survey 36 important people in the country. They did not disclose who these people were. The survey asked them to share whether democracy was "backsliding" or whether it was becoming stronger, than the past.
- tines 2y ago
  > I once took a deep dive into the methodology of one of the custodians of "democracy rankings". It is one of the 2 most popular custodians. Why not just say which it is? Are you trying to give your post a veneer of unbiased-ness while retaining plausible deniability?
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    It was one of the two: VDem, or Freedom House. I don't remember with 100% surety which one it was. I think it was VDem. The reason I called it a "deep dive" is because it took a huge amount of digging in their publications to find the specifics of the methodology.
kaycey2022 2y ago
What is the problem the article is pointing out? A "democracy" index based on the "feelings" of some chosen experts is always going to be biased and problematic. Anyone getting the short end of that stick, if they were organised enough and had the resources, would fight against it irrespective of whether the rankings were justified or not. A large part of soft power is narrative control. There is nothing objective about narrative control. Which means powerful countries which weild a lot of soft power have managed to effectively control their narrative. And their narrative likely has little convergence with reality. No system should realistically expect the subjects to just cede control without any benefits accruing to the "controlled". So countries seeking to increase their own soft power will and should try to control their own narrative. It is easily one of the bigger captain obvious moments I have come across.
Animats 2y ago
The Economist has a democracy index. The US dropped to "flawed democracy" after the coup attempt and has not recovered.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
- mrkstu 2y ago
  With the police visiting grannies based on their Facebook posts, I’d say the UK should be right there next to the US.
  - tim333 2y ago
    I not sure allowing / banning hate speech is that central to democracy. The ones who get jailed are like "inciting racial hatred with Facebook posts in which he advocated an attack on a hotel in Leeds as part of the violent public disorder..." If it was the police having a go for criticizing the government I'd say it was undemocratic, but for inciting violence it seems ok. If I go on social media where you are trying to encourage arson, murder etc are the law enforcement there ok with that? (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/09/two-men-jailed-for-social-media-posts-that-stirred-up-far-right-violence https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/09/two...)
    - consteval 2y ago
      I concur. The US has taken an “anything goes” approach to speech and clearly it hasn’t helped us. In fact, it’s only allowed disinformation to spread. I mean, Jan 6th is directly the result of an “all speech is equal” approach. Intuitively we know this isn’t how speech works - the town dumbass is probably spewing BS, and the pharmacist might have a point. But when we distill it down to all the same thing and then throw in the immediate and vast nature of the internet, things get hairy. It’s tough because, of course, nobody wants to let someone else decide who is right and who is wrong. But someone is actually right, and letting everyone decide for themselves isn’t currently working.
admiralrohan 2y ago
No one is right here. The West do try to control India through these institutions and rankings, and Indian government is trying to use that to hide some of their shortcomings. Narrative controlling is necessary, but I hope the actual work is done too.
julianeon 2y ago
My hot take is that, viewed under the right conditions, India today is what a long-term MAGA victory in the US would look like (as in multiple consecutive Presidential administrations). Now obviously the religion must be changed; obviously also the demographic/racial aspect is different too. But in general, to see how MAGA might operate if it succeeded completely, look at India.
- ethan_smith 2y ago
  That's exactly what I keep saying - both governments use the same tools to control relatively gullible masses. For example, BJP won by a vast majority largely due to their IT cell[1], an army of people paid 1-10$ per day to berate or praise anyone, re-tweet/like/share to manipulate algorithms and make things go viral. This was a huge one-sided operation for the initial few years until the opposition finally caught up. The party is headed by an alleged murderer (people died and cases against him conveniently disappeared as soon as the party came to power)[2][3]. He's the mastermind while Modi is just the face. Modi hasn't held a single unscripted press conference/interview in the last 10 years and can't handle questions that aren't pre-arranged. Its not just related to India, Right wings across the globe have more or less figured this out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68653573 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68653573 [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/16/amit-shah-narendra-modi-right-hand-man-india https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/16/amit-s...
  - slake 2y ago
    [flagged]
slake 2y ago
The article doesn't answer its own question. The inherent contradictions in the ratings. Romania who just 'cancelled an election' and banned the winning candidate from contesting is 40 positions above India.
- tim333 2y ago
  The Romania actions were too recent to affect the rankings whatever you think of them.
maxglute 2y ago
Discourse power etc. Next up Nobel Prizes.
pawaggupta 2y ago
These days, you can pretty much write whatever you want online, no need for it to make sense!

71 points by ethan_smith 2y ago

A few things that stand out (not that it's that shocking!) - Narratives matter -- a lot . Second order effects of such subjective rankings are real . Imagine getting a credit downgrade because someone perceives the democracy to be under threat - "the government had reverse-engineered the ranking, strategically identifying procedural tweaks that directly boosted India’s scores in Delhi and Mumbai—the two cities evaluated by the World Bank" . I love the whole cynical nature of this. This is statecraft at it's finest ( I render no moral judgements here :) ). This is reminiscent of Machiavelli or Kautilya (Chanakya) [0] A lot more to digest but will post them as a reply on this thread. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya

whatshisface 2y ago
Statecraft at its finest? Next, I'll hear that KPI manipulation sets the standard for good engineering...
- kaycey2022 2y ago
  The real question is why did anyone even think KPIs were effective in the first place.
  - Guthur 2y ago
    Exactly, I'm sure Boeing and Intel both had KPIs coming out the walls but both have had major engineering issues recently.
- labster 2y ago
  I don’t know, I get the feeling Sir Humphrey would approve of this fine piece of statecraft (unless of course it was an adversary of Her Majesty’s government, in which case he would be appropriately concerned)
- vmurthy 2y ago
  I agree re KPIs and engineering. But, statecraft is people. You’re not dealing with bits :)

recursivedoubts 2y ago

thank goodness i live in a country in which the government doesn't attempt to control the narrative around democracy

Yoric 2y ago
or free speech?
BowBun 2y ago
Before someone bites the bait - this comment is sarcastic and 100% of democratic societies spend resources to control the narrative around their government/country/whatever. 100%.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  It doesn't help that the nature of "democracy" is itself endlessly contested. E.g. both supporters and critics of the way Romanian courts have treated Georgescu seem to claim they are "defending democracy". There are important advantages to a social contract which is simple and unambiguous.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    I am pretty shocked at that Romanian court ruling though. It seems like the entire questioning of the election outcomes was motivated by EU leadership not liking the result of democracy. The decision to not stop at redoing the election but to then ban the candidate seems motivated by the fact that opinion polls show him to still be winning even today despite the alleged “election interference”, months after he won the first election. It’s weird seeing the EU conduct elections sort of like Russia does, ironically. In the past I viewed the EU as supporting things like free speech and democracy in the same way America does.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Isn't it Romania, and not the EU? Also, what do you do about election manipulation? 'Nothing' isn't an acceptable answer.

geodel 2y ago

> Western standards didn’t apply here. India had its own definition of democracy. I think this is core thrust of narrative of Indian state and its card carrying supporters. On ideological part this of course makes sense. But practical aspect of cheap cost of informational bit vs physical bit that makes state so obsessed with this. As it makes so easily achievable. It would be very much clear to anyone who do not spend whole life on social media dream world in India that physical infrastructure will not be reaching of western standards at least in this century. On the other hand informational infrastructure very much reachable if not already reached. Consider Indian companies do so much information /data processing for West already. Hence all emphasis and obsession on narrative building.

pm90 2y ago
I disagree with the physical infrastructure bit. Indian Govt has invested massively in all kinds of infrastructure and they don’t seem to be slowing down. All of this has already paid off massive dividends and will continue to accelerate development.
- geodel 2y ago
  Physical infrastructure will keep improving but at some point one has to have a sense of proportion on what is realistically possible. My three visits to India in past 2-3 years has given me first hand experience on how stunningly crappy infrastructure and system managing that infrastructure is compared to first world. To be fair though it may be better than lot of other poorer nations.

rayiner 2y ago

Modi has the highest approval rating, according to western pollsters, of any leader in the world. India’s elections are free and fair. That’s all democracy requires. Democracy doesn’t mean western democracy or liberal democracy. Shadi Hamid has done excellent work on this issue: https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-america-the-middle-east-and-the-rise-and-fall-of-an-idea https://www.brookings.edu/books/the-problem-of-democracy-ame...; see also https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of-democracy-by-shadi-hamid-review-democracy-and-its-discontents https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jan/18/the-problem-of...

shipp02 2y ago
The Guardian article is interesting because it helped untangle the idea of liberalism and democracy in my mind. How did they become so deeply linked?
- morkalork 2y ago
  Because illiberals, when realizing their beliefs aren't all that popular, don't tend to pack it in and give it up to democracy.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  Democracy means that people can vote. Liberalism means they get to choose who to vote for.
mmooss 2y ago
> India’s elections are free and fair. Are they, when people opposing one candidate are jailed? > That’s all democracy requires. That is certainly false. Democracy isn't mob rule, or as the saying go, it's not two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Democracy is about self-determination for each person; if people in minority don't have self-determination, it's not democracy at all.
- rayiner 2y ago
  [flagged]

shipp02 2y ago

A pivotal quote in the article: >How could theocratic states with no separation of religion and government score higher than India? How could a country with universal suffrage and constitutional rights rank below nations that didn’t even hold elections? Since the article talks quite a bit about Sanjeev Sanyal, I think it might be interesting to point to some of his podcasts. Like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW-mH4qIOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW-mH4qIOQ. Here he points out how the media has misrepresented India and exaggerated and sensationalized issues. Similarly, India has taken criticism from the West over its more ambitious projects like Sardar Vallabhai Patel's statue, and the space program. So taking the West's word with a grain of salt is quite valid. Further, the article points out that the government is trying to game the ranking while outwardly saying that they don't matter. This seems hypocritical at first glance but it also points out that having lower rankings affects investor confidence and borrowing rates. You can be against a broken system while still trying to appease it because it's not going to change immediately. The Indian Government needs to work within the system until something better can be created. I am not fully supportive of everything the NDA government has done but I don't think there is another leader in India who can feasibly win an election right now and I refuse to support INC until they get rid of the Gandhi dynasty. Also, please look at the podcast from this timestamp[2], where he further shows why people in general but Indians specifically should be skeptical of Western narratives. This is also supported by the book Unnatural Selection by Mara Hvistendahl [2]:https://youtu.be/gNVMvlfMbCU?list=PLgZQtm7d9Z1K9TCynoA3S0QWv9aqtTnqB&t=1161 https://youtu.be/gNVMvlfMbCU?list=PLgZQtm7d9Z1K9TCynoA3S0QWv...

ViktorRay 2y ago
Sometimes I do find it bizzare when western media praises a theocratic absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia for “modernizing” (by allowing women to drive and allowing them to not have chaperones) while simultaneously these same media organizations accuse a constitutional liberal democracy like India (which has strict separation of powers and an active independent Supreme Court) of somehow being authoritarian or fascist or some other slur.
- pm90 2y ago
  The BJP is certainly authoritarian and fascistic, this is not contested. The country itself though probably isn’t. They failed to get an outright majority in the recent elections, and perhaps the main reason they still win is the opposition is completely incapable of reform (like the OP said they keep putting up members of the Gandhi family despite them losing elections repeatedly).

mandeepj 2y ago

Middle class (Upper, middle, and lower) are crushed into shambles. The Rich and those who can gather means are leaving the country at an alarming rate. The fake leader is worried about his narrative and ratings.

throwaway7783 2y ago
Wait, what? When did this happen. This is not the India I live in. India is fluid, complex beast. Your comment reads like propaganda.
AliveShine 2y ago
that is true almost everywhere in the world today.

jongjong 2y ago

As I get older, I realize increasingly that there is a huge gap between how most people think the government works and how it actually works... Also, the government and other entities which benefit from the incongruity spend a massive amount of effort constructing narratives to obscure the discrepancy in the public eye. If you boil it down and peek beneath the many layers of complexity and misdirection, reality is disturbingly dark and you wonder how society functions at all and how so many people can be fooled into believing surface narratives... But in a way, it's because people are fooled that society can function as-is, in spite of its dysfunction. If people knew how the system really worked, it would have to change. IMO, the good news is that generally, when the system is forced to change to become more transparent, things improve. But the system is always at the edge; constantly gaslighting the public as much as it can get away with at any given time. The state rarely apologizes for past mistakes; unless it serves some new agenda which it benefits from (e.g. the mistake happened under different leadership). There should be some rule like "The state is precisely as corrupt as it can get away with." Or "The state is corrupt proportionally to how passive and delusional its citizens are."

mmooss 2y ago
> the good news is that generally, when the system is forced to change to become more transparent Is that what is happening now?
- jongjong 2y ago
  Well compare things now with how they were during feudalism. Things are a bit better for the average person. The problem we have now is that the population is extremely propagandized/delusional due to powerful media, made possible by technology. But the same technologies can also create more transparency... Or the technology may cause more skepticism which is also good; e.g. As AI generates fake videos, people will adapt to be more skeptical.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > compare things now with how they were during feudalism. Things are a bit better for the average person. That is really looking at the long run! :D I hope for improvement on a shorter timeline, myself. All those average people are dead. > powerful media If you include social media, I'm with you. > As AI generates fake videos, people will adapt to be more skeptical. You said, and I agree, that people have become "extremely propagandized/delusional" due to prior tech development; why would AI tech have different outcomes?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

quantum_state 2y ago

Would say India is big enough country with enough people and knows how to take care of its own business, democracy or others.

mmooss 2y ago
How does size indicate that? Many big countries have done horrible things.
- geodel 2y ago
  Of course. In above comment take care is doing heavy lifting.

profsummergig 2y ago

I once took a deep dive into the methodology of one of the custodians of "democracy rankings". It is one of the 2 most popular custodians. Their methodology for each country was different. For India their methodology was to survey 36 important people in the country. They did not disclose who these people were. The survey asked them to share whether democracy was "backsliding" or whether it was becoming stronger, than the past.

tines 2y ago
> I once took a deep dive into the methodology of one of the custodians of "democracy rankings". It is one of the 2 most popular custodians. Why not just say which it is? Are you trying to give your post a veneer of unbiased-ness while retaining plausible deniability?
- profsummergig 2y ago
  It was one of the two: VDem, or Freedom House. I don't remember with 100% surety which one it was. I think it was VDem. The reason I called it a "deep dive" is because it took a huge amount of digging in their publications to find the specifics of the methodology.

kaycey2022 2y ago

What is the problem the article is pointing out? A "democracy" index based on the "feelings" of some chosen experts is always going to be biased and problematic. Anyone getting the short end of that stick, if they were organised enough and had the resources, would fight against it irrespective of whether the rankings were justified or not. A large part of soft power is narrative control. There is nothing objective about narrative control. Which means powerful countries which weild a lot of soft power have managed to effectively control their narrative. And their narrative likely has little convergence with reality. No system should realistically expect the subjects to just cede control without any benefits accruing to the "controlled". So countries seeking to increase their own soft power will and should try to control their own narrative. It is easily one of the bigger captain obvious moments I have come across.

Animats 2y ago

The Economist has a democracy index. The US dropped to "flawed democracy" after the coup attempt and has not recovered.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

mrkstu 2y ago
With the police visiting grannies based on their Facebook posts, I’d say the UK should be right there next to the US.
- tim333 2y ago
  I not sure allowing / banning hate speech is that central to democracy. The ones who get jailed are like "inciting racial hatred with Facebook posts in which he advocated an attack on a hotel in Leeds as part of the violent public disorder..." If it was the police having a go for criticizing the government I'd say it was undemocratic, but for inciting violence it seems ok. If I go on social media where you are trying to encourage arson, murder etc are the law enforcement there ok with that? (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/09/two-men-jailed-for-social-media-posts-that-stirred-up-far-right-violence https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/09/two...)
  - consteval 2y ago
    I concur. The US has taken an “anything goes” approach to speech and clearly it hasn’t helped us. In fact, it’s only allowed disinformation to spread. I mean, Jan 6th is directly the result of an “all speech is equal” approach. Intuitively we know this isn’t how speech works - the town dumbass is probably spewing BS, and the pharmacist might have a point. But when we distill it down to all the same thing and then throw in the immediate and vast nature of the internet, things get hairy. It’s tough because, of course, nobody wants to let someone else decide who is right and who is wrong. But someone is actually right, and letting everyone decide for themselves isn’t currently working.

admiralrohan 2y ago

No one is right here. The West do try to control India through these institutions and rankings, and Indian government is trying to use that to hide some of their shortcomings. Narrative controlling is necessary, but I hope the actual work is done too.

julianeon 2y ago

My hot take is that, viewed under the right conditions, India today is what a long-term MAGA victory in the US would look like (as in multiple consecutive Presidential administrations). Now obviously the religion must be changed; obviously also the demographic/racial aspect is different too. But in general, to see how MAGA might operate if it succeeded completely, look at India.

ethan_smith 2y ago
That's exactly what I keep saying - both governments use the same tools to control relatively gullible masses. For example, BJP won by a vast majority largely due to their IT cell[1], an army of people paid 1-10$ per day to berate or praise anyone, re-tweet/like/share to manipulate algorithms and make things go viral. This was a huge one-sided operation for the initial few years until the opposition finally caught up. The party is headed by an alleged murderer (people died and cases against him conveniently disappeared as soon as the party came to power)[2][3]. He's the mastermind while Modi is just the face. Modi hasn't held a single unscripted press conference/interview in the last 10 years and can't handle questions that aren't pre-arranged. Its not just related to India, Right wings across the globe have more or less figured this out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68653573 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-68653573 [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/16/amit-shah-narendra-modi-right-hand-man-india https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/16/amit-s...
- slake 2y ago
  [flagged]

slake 2y ago

The article doesn't answer its own question. The inherent contradictions in the ratings. Romania who just 'cancelled an election' and banned the winning candidate from contesting is 40 positions above India.

tim333 2y ago
The Romania actions were too recent to affect the rankings whatever you think of them.

maxglute 2y ago

Discourse power etc. Next up Nobel Prizes.

pawaggupta 2y ago

These days, you can pretty much write whatever you want online, no need for it to make sense!