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It seems to be a matter of indifference to many that a persistent societal division of fifty-fifty is symptomatic of a profound societal schism. This is because

It seems to be a matter of indifference to many that a persistent societal division of fifty-fifty is symptomatic of a profound societal schism. This is because such a division, in any configuration, maximizes the number of those who are discontented. As it is written, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." To my mind, this matter is of far greater significance than any secondary, tangible processes that may be occurring in consequence. Furthermore, the mechanisms that ensure the mathematical expectation of electoral outcomes to hover around a fifty-fifty split — a phenomenon observable in many nations — are fundamentally economic in nature. Both factions commit resources to the electoral contest to secure a mere one percent advantage, as such is the foundational principle of democracy: a majority of fifty-one percent prevails. Thus, economic factors — for an electoral campaign is, in essence, a contest of capital—having, in effect, subverted the very system of democratic elections, inevitably lead to the decay of nations that religiously adhere to the mathematics of a single percentage point as the sole criterion of legitimacy. In optimizing for democratic representation, social stability and equilibrium have been forfeited. It is akin to the psychological paradox: "I am correct, and all acknowledge it, yet why do I not experience contentment?" It is because one has optimized for correctness — or in the context of elections, for fairness and representativeness — rather than for overall well-being. Such is the predicament inherent in the pursuit of a mere fifty-one percent majority.

Tuna-Fish 2y ago
> Furthermore, the mechanisms that ensure the mathematical expectation of electoral outcomes to hover around a fifty-fifty split — a phenomenon observable in many nations — are fundamentally economic in nature. What? No they are not. This is 100% created by the FPTP voting system. It is the single cause that leads to this, everywhere where it's used. FPTP means that if your party cannot hoover up a base that gets 50%+1 of the votes, you change your platform until it can. The stable equilibrium is two parties at very nearly 50% split. Then both parties have to cater to their 50%, can ignore the other 50%, and do not benefit from co-operation across party lines. This equilibrium is not visible in democratic countries that use some kind of proportional representation. In such systems, parties tend to be smaller, and necessarily have to co-operate to form government.
- chrisweekly 2y ago
  Yes, this, exactly. I was going to write the same thing. FPTP produces this result. In the US, the combination of FPTP voting and campaign finance rules lead to congress being fundamentally broken.
- foobarian 2y ago
  Moreover, I'm thinking that modern information tools (Internet, polls, tracking, etc). have lead to better and more accurate forecasting, which in turn allowed the parties to apply ever narrower targeting at hyper-focused groups and minimize wasted effort past getting the majority needed to win elections. Basically as there is less and less noise the battles get closer and closer to the theoretical equilibrium point. And this is bad because it causes huge shifts based on the whims of what, fractions of a percent of the population?
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago
  The mechanisms are economic in nature if you assume the context of a first past the post electoral system. It's worth repeating that FPTP maximizes the number of those who are discontented: Parties lose all incentives to appeal to more than 50%+1, so the remaining 49.9% are left high and dry. This implies that a proportional representation system will be more stable, because a higher percentage of the voters will be represented.
credit_guy 2y ago
I disagree. I think the US system with 2 parties is superior to the systems in many other nations where there are multiple parties. The problem with multiple parties is that it is difficult to form a governing coalition. In the US the problem of coalition building simply does not exits (I wonder how many people in the US are even aware of the concept). Basically, the coalition building is done ahead of the elections, by various interest groups aligning themselves with one of the two parties. This alignment is voluntary and dynamic, so the shape of the two parties continuously changes. The debate seems quite polarized and this is indeed a problem. But I think it stems more from the way people's exposure to information has changed with the advent of the internet and social media, and less from how the US organizes its electoral process.
- ipaddr 2y ago
  The problem with two parties is everything is left or right. Coalition building can be hard but the work bridges ideas/approaches which pull more people together. Two party systems end up governing from their extreme positions while trying to pull 1% over.
  - zo1 2y ago
    All the more reason why we shouldn't vote for parties and politicians but rather vote on specific individual decisions/topics/choices. It's 2025, we should be able to have more granular control over the direction our governments take, and not have to rely on some nebulous "party" or politicians grouping that forces us to deal with compromises. And not only compromises, but all the deal-making and trading that the groups make with eachother.
    - squigz 2y ago
      > All the more reason why we shouldn't vote for parties and politicians but rather vote on specific individual decisions/topics/choices. This sounds nice but if people can't even vote for favorable outcomes now, how can we expect them to make informed decisions on dozens of matters of public policy?
api 2y ago
> as such is the foundational principle of democracy: a majority of fifty-one percent prevails. There are other ways of doing voting and organizing a democracy that are less prone to this winner take all dynamic. The foundational principle of democracy is consent of the governed. The details of how that's achieved can vary widely. One is to do the vote differently, such as with ranked choice voting where voters are free to choose the candidate they actually want without "wasting" their vote. Another is parliamentary style systems with proportional representation, which allow more than just two parties to have a voice and require the parties to form coalitions to govern. Lastly, you can vote on actual policy proposals instead of just on politicians and parties. It's not either-or -- it's possible to have a system with both representatives and direct voting on major points of contention.
- sannysanoff 2y ago
  That is indeed the case. Perhaps I should have clarified that my comments are directed at the current political system of the United States. The purpose of my message was to highlight that there is a certain opposing force at play, one that is shifting the working system – specifically, the US electoral system – towards a range of diminished effectiveness. Essentially, the rules are being manipulated in such a way that while they may technically function, the fundamental objectives are still being undermined. These objectives, as outlined in the US Constitution, are to ensure domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare. It is necessary to address this systemic vulnerability, as this issue is becoming increasingly relevant in many places.
christkv 2y ago
Thats why no laws should be possible to pass without a 2/3 vote. 50% + 1 vote will always lead to a weak mandate and an accusation of tyranny. Let them haggle and if it's not worth passing at 2/3 of a vote it's not worth passing at all.
vintermann 2y ago
> Both factions commit resources to the electoral contest to secure a mere one percent advantage That only makes sense if the factions are interchangeable for their members, i.e. if it's the same to them whether they win as part of one faction or the other, as long as they're on the winning side in the end. And I'm pretty sure that's not true for most regular people. It may be true for large corporations and wealthy individuals, though.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Tuna-Fish 2y ago

> Furthermore, the mechanisms that ensure the mathematical expectation of electoral outcomes to hover around a fifty-fifty split — a phenomenon observable in many nations — are fundamentally economic in nature. What? No they are not. This is 100% created by the FPTP voting system. It is the single cause that leads to this, everywhere where it's used. FPTP means that if your party cannot hoover up a base that gets 50%+1 of the votes, you change your platform until it can. The stable equilibrium is two parties at very nearly 50% split. Then both parties have to cater to their 50%, can ignore the other 50%, and do not benefit from co-operation across party lines. This equilibrium is not visible in democratic countries that use some kind of proportional representation. In such systems, parties tend to be smaller, and necessarily have to co-operate to form government.

chrisweekly 2y ago
Yes, this, exactly. I was going to write the same thing. FPTP produces this result. In the US, the combination of FPTP voting and campaign finance rules lead to congress being fundamentally broken.
foobarian 2y ago
Moreover, I'm thinking that modern information tools (Internet, polls, tracking, etc). have lead to better and more accurate forecasting, which in turn allowed the parties to apply ever narrower targeting at hyper-focused groups and minimize wasted effort past getting the majority needed to win elections. Basically as there is less and less noise the battles get closer and closer to the theoretical equilibrium point. And this is bad because it causes huge shifts based on the whims of what, fractions of a percent of the population?
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
The mechanisms are economic in nature if you assume the context of a first past the post electoral system. It's worth repeating that FPTP maximizes the number of those who are discontented: Parties lose all incentives to appeal to more than 50%+1, so the remaining 49.9% are left high and dry. This implies that a proportional representation system will be more stable, because a higher percentage of the voters will be represented.

credit_guy 2y ago

I disagree. I think the US system with 2 parties is superior to the systems in many other nations where there are multiple parties. The problem with multiple parties is that it is difficult to form a governing coalition. In the US the problem of coalition building simply does not exits (I wonder how many people in the US are even aware of the concept). Basically, the coalition building is done ahead of the elections, by various interest groups aligning themselves with one of the two parties. This alignment is voluntary and dynamic, so the shape of the two parties continuously changes. The debate seems quite polarized and this is indeed a problem. But I think it stems more from the way people's exposure to information has changed with the advent of the internet and social media, and less from how the US organizes its electoral process.

ipaddr 2y ago
The problem with two parties is everything is left or right. Coalition building can be hard but the work bridges ideas/approaches which pull more people together. Two party systems end up governing from their extreme positions while trying to pull 1% over.
- zo1 2y ago
  All the more reason why we shouldn't vote for parties and politicians but rather vote on specific individual decisions/topics/choices. It's 2025, we should be able to have more granular control over the direction our governments take, and not have to rely on some nebulous "party" or politicians grouping that forces us to deal with compromises. And not only compromises, but all the deal-making and trading that the groups make with eachother.
  - squigz 2y ago
    > All the more reason why we shouldn't vote for parties and politicians but rather vote on specific individual decisions/topics/choices. This sounds nice but if people can't even vote for favorable outcomes now, how can we expect them to make informed decisions on dozens of matters of public policy?

api 2y ago

> as such is the foundational principle of democracy: a majority of fifty-one percent prevails. There are other ways of doing voting and organizing a democracy that are less prone to this winner take all dynamic. The foundational principle of democracy is consent of the governed. The details of how that's achieved can vary widely. One is to do the vote differently, such as with ranked choice voting where voters are free to choose the candidate they actually want without "wasting" their vote. Another is parliamentary style systems with proportional representation, which allow more than just two parties to have a voice and require the parties to form coalitions to govern. Lastly, you can vote on actual policy proposals instead of just on politicians and parties. It's not either-or -- it's possible to have a system with both representatives and direct voting on major points of contention.

sannysanoff 2y ago
That is indeed the case. Perhaps I should have clarified that my comments are directed at the current political system of the United States. The purpose of my message was to highlight that there is a certain opposing force at play, one that is shifting the working system – specifically, the US electoral system – towards a range of diminished effectiveness. Essentially, the rules are being manipulated in such a way that while they may technically function, the fundamental objectives are still being undermined. These objectives, as outlined in the US Constitution, are to ensure domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare. It is necessary to address this systemic vulnerability, as this issue is becoming increasingly relevant in many places.

christkv 2y ago

Thats why no laws should be possible to pass without a 2/3 vote. 50% + 1 vote will always lead to a weak mandate and an accusation of tyranny. Let them haggle and if it's not worth passing at 2/3 of a vote it's not worth passing at all.

vintermann 2y ago

> Both factions commit resources to the electoral contest to secure a mere one percent advantage That only makes sense if the factions are interchangeable for their members, i.e. if it's the same to them whether they win as part of one faction or the other, as long as they're on the winning side in the end. And I'm pretty sure that's not true for most regular people. It may be true for large corporations and wealthy individuals, though.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]