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Actually we just want the war in Ukraine to end. Hope that helps. There's a lot of bloviating from the chattering class about cozying up to Russia, but I've ye
by moduspol 2y ago
Actually we just want the war in Ukraine to end. Hope that helps.
There's a lot of bloviating from the chattering class about cozying up to Russia, but I've yet to hear a cogent alternative. And no, I don't think "endlessly funding Ukraine to a forever stalemate" qualifies.
- itishappy 2y agoWhy just this war? What's Israel's cogent plan?
- moduspol 2y agoI'm not sure we should be funding that, either.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoYou are “not sure”?
- Vilian 2y agoI don't want to see Ukrainian genocide by Russia, hope that help
- convolvatron 2y agoI would rather not have to live through an emboldened and desperate autocracy rolling over Europe and opening up the very real possibility of a third world war. and while we're here, since the US is ostensibly going isolationist, maybe they should stop telling the Ukrainians they need to submit to subjugation.
- isubkhankulov 2y agoIf Russia is powerful enough to take over Europe, how can Ukraine possibly win?
- convolvatron 2y agoI think the story is Russia becomes powerful enough to threaten Europe, one state at a time. Ukraine has an amazing job, but they wouldn't have been able to do even that without convincing others that it was in their best interest to fund the war. That's been clear from the beginning.
- goodluckchuck 2y agoThe war is the genocide. Putin’s invasion would have killed thousands, maybe tens of thousands and been over in a week. Western involvement changed that into the deaths of hundreds of thousands. What more effective means of self-genocide could Europe conceive? Germany cannot exactly round up a whole class of their own for slaughter again in their current political environment. The West (England, Germany, France, etc) caused WWI and WWII not Russia. Now we (America) should trust their vision to avoid WWIII? We should be clear who the problem is and stay out of it.
- bloopernova 2y agoUkraine remembers this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor For Ukraine to continue existing, the russians have to be driven out. Otherwise the genocide will continue. The genocide caused by russians, caused by russians invading Ukraine, caused by russians stealing Ukraine's children. In america's right wing trump followers, there is utter, sociopathic, monstrous indifference to Ukraine's suffering. So I'll ask you, personally: If the neighbouring state or country decided to invade and take over an area of your state, and you were told "you've been resisting too long, give in already and give up your fight", would you lay down and welcome the invaders you've been fighting? If you knew that the invaders were stealing children, and murdering whole towns?
- goodluckchuck 2y ago[flagged]
- throwaway48476 2y agoAs opposed to Russians in power which means death for Ukrainians?
- monkey_monkey 2y agoIf the West had just let Mr Hitler do what he wanted, so many deaths would have been avoided.
- moduspol 2y agoI don't think any of us do. And they'll take your donations either way, so I don't think that's in question. What's your plan that results in Russia giving up the territory they've claimed and heading home?
- charlieyu1 2y agoWhat’s your plan to stop Russia to come back in 2 years after a “peace deal”?
- ProcNetDev 2y agoYou want the war to end so that Russians can do what they did to Bucha a thousand more times! You want the war to end so that Poland, Japan, Taiwan and Australia no longer trust that the US will help them and develop their own nuclear weapons!
- brandonmenc 2y agoIt is absolutely insane that anyone thinks giving nukes to Taiwan is a good idea.
- betaby 2y agoUS prevented Taiwan from developing nukes in the first place.
- xdennis 2y agoIf you think Taiwan shouldn't cease to exist, how else can you guarantee that? It's either nukes or US protection and nobody trusts the Americans anymore.
- brandonmenc 2y agoHong Kong still exists.
- charlieyu1 2y agoJust not the same as it was. People are fleeing at a faster rate than East Germany before Berlin Wall
- ProcNetDev 2y agoOther nations have adjacency. Taiwan makes some of the most complex devices humans have ever constructed! They can figure out the almost 100 year old technology to make a gun bomb nuke.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- BrawnyBadger53 2y agoBecause conflict ended for good when crimea was annexed...
- moduspol 2y agoFair point. If only we had stretched that over decades and spent billions of dollars. I guess it could have been a lot more expensive? Still waiting on the alternative plan.
- AppleAtCha 2y agoIs your plan really to just let Russia have new territory whenever they want it? Why do you think this would save money or lives?
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoWe call you when Putin comes for Alaska.
- mft_ 2y agoYou must be being deliberately obtuse at this stage. He's not saying the Crimea incursion should have been fought again more. He's saying that allowing the annexation of Crimea to be relatively peacful didn't prevent the subsequent imvasion of Ukraine, and as such, stopping the war now and allowing Russia to keep the gains it has made may lead to a short-term peace, but will likely not prevent another war in the future. Given Putin's stated wishes, this will only stop if Russia is unable to make such moves (for whatever reason) or states at risk of invasion are defended such that it's strategically stupid for Russia to even try.
- af78 2y agoThe Ukrainians want this war to end, too. The difference is that they want to survive as a nation, so how the war ends matters. Plus if Russia wins, its appetite will only grow, and another war is just a matter of time.
- moduspol 2y agoYep, that all sounds great. Now what's your plan for preventing Russia from winning? The plan so far has not worked.
- tim333 2y agoHold the line, stop the oil tankers.
- moduspol 2y agoWho stops them? Ideally we'd do this without starting WW3.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- throwawaymaths 2y agoideally we can stop hitler without starting wwwii. just give him a bit more of Czechoslovakia bro, this time its enough, bro. i promise.
- moduspol 2y agoIf only we had spent billions for decades of fighting in Czechoslovakia. Fair point.
- throwawaymaths 2y agoif only france and spain had decided to be neutral in the us war of independence we wouldnt be here hearing your navel gazing opinion.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- gherkinnn 2y agoIf Ukraine stops the fight they cease to be a sovereign nation. If Russia stops they loose face. The former is existential, the latter is not. Why is this so hard to understand? Any ceasefire or peace without security guarantees will be used by Russia to rearm and try again in a few years time. It will be a continuation of the conflict that started in 2014. That, too, isn't hard to understand.
- moduspol 2y agoI guess we're on the hook to fund a stalemate indefinitely then? What's your plan for beating Russia? Ideally without starting WW3.
- codethief 2y agoAccording to many economists we were already on a very good way to beating them (ruining them) with existing sanctions alone.
- graycrow 2y agoGiving Ukraine all the weapons it needed and asked for, instead of destroying them soon, would be a good start. Also, you know, not forbidding Ukraine to use its long-range drones to damage Russia's oil industry would also be helpful. This is to get started. I can continue.
- Paradigma11 2y agoWinning the attrition war. They have most likely less than a year left before their economy crumbles. 21% interest rates, capital controls, official 10% inflation, annihilated non military sectors (fe cars), forcing their banks to give loans to anything military adjacent while forbidding them to call them in....... I am sure the Europeans would be willing to shoulder more of the cost but the US has been cutting Ukraine off from intelligence sources and now also support. There is no cost argument for that. Also do you really think that these decisions will not cost the US in lost sales, reassurances for everything because of lost trust....
- 2y ago
- kilotaras 2y agoI believe a big crux is in definition of "war ended". You (and Donald Trump) seem to be using "Ukraine and Russia stop shooting at each other right now", while Ukraine operates more under "Russia stops shooting at us for the foreseeable future, 20 years at least." Russia has previously broken a number of ceasefires and written agreements (including the infamous Budapest memorandum) and so Ukraine is not super trusting to agreements not backed by anything.
- moduspol 2y agoWhat Ukraine will accept is entirely dependent on how much funding they will get from foreign powers to continue their war effort. I've had a lot of responses to my comment, yet I've seen no alternative ideas presented that will result in a different outcome. What is your plan for getting Russia to lose this war?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bambax 2y agoThe alternative is to destroy Russia. Destroy its economy, kill their soldiers until there isn't one left standing, ravage its cities. Set fire to its oil fields. Sink its ships. It's a good alternative. A pleasant sight and a nice thing to look forward to.