11 ms·

My stupid noise journey (2023)

164 points by ustad 2y ago

sigilis 2y ago
What earphones did the author end up using? It is strange that after relating all the dead ends in some detail and found his solution, he does not share it.
- thenthenthen 2y ago
  I guess Bose QuietComfort (hinted at by the bold font). These are ON ear headphones. Not ideal for me personally. These will hurt after an hour or so depending on your ears I guess. I prefer the Sleepbuds II (see below also)
  - joshdavham 2y ago
    These are the headphones I bought last week. From my experience, I can wear them hours on end and feel fine.
  - johanbcn 2y ago
    That's right. I was digging through the comments on the substack version of the post and he confirmed it: https://dynomight.substack.com/p/noise/comment/17817515 https://dynomight.substack.com/p/noise/comment/17817515
byronic 2y ago
smashing molecules
thenthenthen 2y ago
I have been on a similar journey. The Bose headphones are nice, but hard to sleep with and they are ON-ear, which hirt my ears after an hour or so. The Bose Sleepbuds are okish, the best of all the products I tried, sadly discontinued. There was(is?) a reboot of the same product but do not have experience with those [0]. Anyone tried those ‘soft’ headband looking headphones for sleeping? Tips welcome [0] https://ozlosleep.com/ https://ozlosleep.com/
- moab 2y ago
  It's a real pity they got discontinued. The sleepbuds work fantastic and are the only product that works for me.
  - fmajid 2y ago
    Anker makes these earbuds for sleep: https://www.soundcore.com/uk/products/sleep-a20-sleeping-earbuds https://www.soundcore.com/uk/products/sleep-a20-sleeping-ear... I haven't tried them myself, but they come highly recommended.
- Timwi 2y ago
  I assume that the article is not about sleeping. For sleeping, have you tried foam earplugs?
  - Klaster_1 2y ago
    Foam plugs absolutely do the job. What I don't like about these is that after listening to a book or podcast before sleep you need to put these in. Some nights, you fall asleep during playback and wake up to dogs barking, annoyed. Other nights, you are on the verge of consciousness and can't be bothered to put the plugs in. Everything sound-related is always messy in many ways. I bet when we get high quality replacement digital ears you can mute, these will still have some stupid crap going on, like unstable device pairing.
    - thenthenthen 2y ago
      Foam doesnt work against the noise here. Sleep buds plus Quiet Comfort on max works a bit lol
- blahlabs 2y ago
  I have a set of sleepphones. They are okay. If I sleep on my side with the earphone directly over my ear, it does start to hurt, but just off with the volume a little higher works, depending on the content being played. I've also found they seem to move around a bit inside the head band and the volume varies a lot depending on where the earphone is in relation to my ear. The battery sits on the back on the band which may not be great for back sleepers. Any particular questions, happy to answer.
yapyap 2y ago
Man these were some well educated mr Bean level hijinks. I had to stifle a laugh multiple times reading it. One of the highlights was definitely: “I tried kits for making custom-molded earplugs. One hardly blocked any noise. Another had a small piece immediately break off deep inside my ear, resulting in legendary good times trying to remove it with a screw” like, why a screw? not tweezers, not anything of that sort? also the part about trying to have a conversation with the earmuffs on, lol. I feel for you OOP but still, pretty funny.
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago
  Why do you feel for object-oriented programming? :)
aredox 2y ago
This is a nice follow-up: https://dynomight.net/car-trouble/ https://dynomight.net/car-trouble/
- stavros 2y ago
  Yeah this seems to be a pattern with this guy. Maybe he just really enjoys thinking about stuff, though.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    I saw the first recommended article being another one posted on HN earlier about a tea extract or whatever. Body / life hacker of sorts.
NKosmatos 2y ago
Noise pollution (or sound pollution) is a modern day era problem, and if I dare say disease. It’s getting more and more difficult to isolate ourselves, especially in urban environments. It never ceases to amaze me that blocking noise/sound (one of the weakest forces) is very difficult, whereas blocking light (being fastest and more “powerful”) is very easy. It might sound futuristic, but I expect noise canceling force fields to become an everyday household thing in a few years ;-)
- stavros 2y ago
  > It never ceases to amaze me that blocking noise/sound (one of the weakest forces) is very difficult, whereas blocking light (being fastest and more “powerful”) is very easy. How is sound weaker than light? Light is stopped by some thin cardboard, whereas sound will just breeze through walls.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Both have huge dynamic ranges, but consider: 1. We evolved to spend 50% of the time in the presence of a 1 kW/m^2 light source. 2. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity, sound intensity is 10log₁₀(I/I₀) dB, where I₀ = 1 picowatt/m^2, which means 1 kW/m^2 is ~150 dB, which is about what you get from standing 1 meter away from a jet engine (Wikipedia cited a book for that claim, and doesn't itself say which jet engine).
    - stavros 2y ago
      In terms of energy, sure, light is much more energetic, but the problem with sound is that it can reach your ears with orders of magnitude less energy than light can.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      The other side of this is that light (EMR) attenuates exceedingly rapidly in matter. Much (though not all) of it will pass through a few tens or hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere, but a distressingly thin piece of solid matter (or many liquids) will block or scatter it beyond all detection save residual thermal noise. (The fact that we can transmit light through hundreds or thousands of kilometers of solid glass is worth marvelling over.) Sound, being a vibration of matter itself rather than an electromagnetic field, actually often travels better through matter, particularly those low frequencies which are transmitted through structures or the ground itself. But yes, the far more energetically intense electromagnetic radiation is generally far more easily addressed than far weaker sound eminations.
deleted 2y ago
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supermatt 2y ago
Does anyone have much experience with these headphones? I am looking for similar but dont like headphones pressing on my ears. Are the quietcomfort suitable for that? Is the ultra a worthy upgrade? Is there anything better on the market now? Redddit seems to suggest that Sony ANC is superior.
- fmajid 2y ago
  He was operating on outdated advice. Yes, 1990s ANC headphones would only work on repetitive noise, but the technology has advanced by leaps and bounds since. Sony and Apple AirPods Max are considered best-in-class.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > Sony and Apple AirPods Max are considered best-in-class. Inherited some Sony WF-1000XM4 and can confirm that they're really good at noise cancelling. Plus they have an ambient mode (with optional "filter in voices") which is helpful when you need to interact briefly.
  - bqmjjx0kac 2y ago
    I'm more sensitive to noise than most -- AirPods Max are an incredible tool for me. Sometimes I just wear them without listening to anything to block out office noises, conversations, etc. Unavoidably, they get uncomfortable after a while, but it's on the order of hours. This is starting to sound like a sales pitch, but if anyone like me is on the fence, they're really an incredible product that has improved the quality of my life, which I don't say lightly.
    - ribs 2y ago
      For me the problem is mainly when trying to sleep, specifically, at Burning Man, where it can be very difficult. I used foam earplugs for years, but they leave something to be desired. The AirPods Max…get them on my ears correctly, and I’m in a forest. It’s uncanny. It was the most profound alteration to my experience there in years.
- 2y ago
criddell 2y ago
When the author mentioned they didn’t understand how our ears and brains process sound and then said they went back to first principles, I thought for sure they were going to end up working on their reaction to sounds and doing something like cognitive behavioral therapy.
- theoreticalmal 2y ago
  This was my thought too. Seems far easier to figure out a way to be okay with the noise than to go to great lengths to block it out
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    I wonder if that's possible. I think to a degree it is, but at the same time, noise and whatnot goes deeper into the lizard brain.
- jononor 2y ago
  Yeah the psycho(logical) part of psychoacoustics is actually more important one wrt to noise annoyance.
metalman 2y ago
I have been thinking and learning about sound and noise control/isolation for a long time. I am quite sure that active noise cancellation in real domestic environments is impossible. Simple physical isolation will always be cheaper and more effective. The idea of portability is founded on an overly simplified and ancient demonstration of sign waves cancelling each other, and fataly leave out how human hearing actualy operates, and there are now indications that the very best active noise cancelling headphones, are working, but with side effects that are disorienting, and likely very bad for your health and brain.Do the deap, deap dive into just how sophisticated human hearing is at discerning usefull information in an increadably complecated environment, and the fact that there is NO OFF SWITCH, this isn't just an osiliscope excersise, your brain is fighting furiously to figure out what that wierd sound is, please be nice to your brain and dont feed it an endless unatural, impossible in nature, signal. 3 years of sound engineering in a past life, and still loving sound/music/audio and searching for implimentable solutions to NOISE
taeric 2y ago
I'm curiously watching the room noise cancelling tech that manta sleep is building. Looks promising. Curious if folks have experience with similar devices?
- thih9 2y ago
  Somewhat related: https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000090151 https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000090151 (2020) > Hyundai’s World’s First Road‒Noise Active Noise Control, RANC
relaxing 2y ago
I hope everyone reads to the end for the real takeaway — believing you can re-engineer a complex solution from first principles is generally a fool’s errand.
- jefc1111 2y ago
  It's a really good takeaway too. Analysis is a tool, not a way of life. My achilles heel, which is similar, but not the same, is attempting to over-optimise, to the detriment of myself and people around me. I have learnt that sometimes it is ok/best to act with little consideration. Usually it's worth quickly assessing what the worst case scenario is - if it's missing a flight, maybe it's good to apply some detailed analysis. If it's being 15 minutes late too the pub - maybe just get on with life and see what happens. It's a really difficult and pervasive behaviour though, which I find some people cannot understand. I can't go upstairs or downstairs at home without briefly wondering if there is some item that should be elsewhere (washing, scattered toys etc) that I could carry with me. I can't switch a light off without doing a quick evaluation of how long it will be until needs to be back on, and therefore whether or not it is in fact worth turning it off. Gah!
  - anothereng 2y ago
    think of it as habits. It's a good habit to turn off lights when you leave a room but it's not a rule you have to do or else
patrickmay 2y ago
Great story. It reminded me of this quote: "A month in the laboratory can often save an hour in the library." -- Frank Westheimer
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  Similar sentiment used these days: "Weeks of work can save us hours of planning".
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  But what he's talking about is an hour in the laboratory saving him months in the library, so to speak. As usual, wisdom is knowing which situation you're in.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Except that they spent two years in the library and laboratory even though there was an obvious solution that they refused to try first. It's like replacing parts in a computer before checking if it's plugged in.
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      Right, to be clear, an hour in the lab would have saved him years of research, if he had done it. All I'm saying is that the lab time vs research time question can go both ways.
brabel 2y ago
I have gone through a similar journey. In my case I believed the main problem was the neighbour next door. I got an extra layer of gypsum on the wall but turned out the noise comes from all sides. You can't win in such situation. Apartment buildings not built with noise isolation in mind should be illegal. Had to move out and went to live on a house that was absolutely silent. Well, as long as no one outside was mowing the lawn or something. Then, after 10 years, forgot the problem existed and decided to buy a new house near a busy road. What an idiot I am. Now going through all possibilities: already ordered an extra thick glass layer on my windows (it already has 3 layers), bought sound sound dampening panels (they do not do anything other than help a tiny amount with echo), sound dampening curtains (no effect, but at least stop the daylight well) and may even build a new fence and build glass walls around my balcony. But yeah, you can get used to traffic noise, I hear, and sound cancelling headphones solve the issue as long as I wear them (nearly all day anyway while I work)... it's getting better already after a couple of months. But stumping neighbours upstairs, your only defence really is headphones.
- lukevp 2y ago
  Can you plant bushes or shrubs between you and the road? Also if you add a water feature between you and the road it would add more constant background noise which would raise the baseline that noises would have to exceed before you could hear them.
  - brabel 2y ago
    My house is on the top of a hill. There is already some trees in front of it but it would be impossible to put several lines of them which would be needed to have any effect. I believe a good glass fence in front of the house will help a lot (together with the extra glass on the windows) by reflecting away most of the direct noise (but no idea if that will really work). I've already gone through lots of discussions about it, and you're right, a water feature is suggested often, I need to have a look at that.
  - Anechoic 2y ago
    > Can you plant bushes or shrubs between you and the road? A thin strip of foliage does (basically) nothing to reduce noise propagation. Dense foliage (meaning you can’t see anything through it or move through it) gets you about 1 dB reduction for every 10 feet of thickness.
jibbit 2y ago
I used to think background noise was my enemy.. until a week in a stifling motel with a clunky window unit proved me wrong. It started with me having tantrums that i'd never sleep and ended with me having some of the best sleep ever. I've slept with a noise machine ever since
Climatebamb 2y ago
I had a similiar thing with my eye sight: I couldn't believe or accept that my eye sight got really bad in a short period of time (i was 15). But i did compensate for 5 diopter relativly good. I did learn plenty of that research, made me more aware of eye sight and because i was very young, hard to say that it was obvious to just accept it at that time. In hindsight my school grades were definitly worste than they had to be... And regarding noise: We have a wonderful big lake here in germany and small mountains around it, you can hear the autobahn (going around it) everywhere and we really do a shitty job with handling car noise. Even on the small mountain or in the nature area you hear cars. I definitly will move out of the city in the next few years and in an area which does not have a autobahn close by. I'm happy driving 30-60 minutes to the autobahn.
Azkron 2y ago
Something that has helped me a lot when dealing with noise or other distractions is present time meditation. Just sit there and focus on actively hearing and feeling everything, I would just do 5 min sessions but quite often. After practicing this for while I became less distracted and more comfortable wherever I was.
- swah 2y ago
  Did you follow some guide or just "made it up" this particular method? Interesting!
ericyd 2y ago
This was a joy to read. This comment is not useful but sometimes I just want to share a reaction.
elric 2y ago
I hate having to wear headphones in order to block obnoxious sounds. Obnoxiously loud people should simply stop being obnoxiously loud. Houses needed better sound proofing. Vehicles need to be quieter. Planes shouldn't fly over densely populated areas. So much noise is utterly pointless. A symptom of wasted energy. Soundproofing homes during renovations is stupidly hard to do. E.g. I can't soundproof a party wall without tearing down and replacing a staircase. I installed new windows which block a lot of sound (double glazing, where each pane is of a different thickness), but noise makes it way in through vents and cracks all the same.
- Ntrails 2y ago
  Every night I can hear ubers reversing up the road with their obnoxiously loud lorry-style reversing warning beep. If I'm not already asleep, it keeps me up (and for some reason it takes them forever to park or whatever they're doing). Obviously it's marginally more safe than not having a beep! So, you know, ancillary impacts be damned...
  - arp242 2y ago
    It's also a solved problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwJ5NCf1Vw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwJ5NCf1Vw Tesco delivery trucks have them here in Ireland; it's pretty good stuff. Still quite loud/noticeable when you're up close, while at the same time not being completely obnoxious to everyone in a kilometre radius. Looking at their website it mentions several patents, so perhaps that's one reason it's not more widely used.
    - amenhotep 2y ago
      Good lord, I've gone a long time without knowing what that was all about. First time I heard it I assumed the lorry had a broken reversing beep speaker or something!
  - elric 2y ago
    Car alarms are similar. Maybe (but doubtfully) they'll prevent your car from being stolen/trashed/emptied. But at the cost of waking up an entire neighbourhood every time a bird shits on it a little too forcefully (or whatever it is that randomly sets off car alarms in the middle of the night). That's not a tradeoff that works for me. Your house is on fire? Fine, wake up the whole neighbourhood. You're in physical danger? Sure, emergency services can be as noisy as they need to be. Some of your stuff is in danger of being stolen? Meh, I don't want to get out of bed for that.
timerol 2y ago
(2023)
1970-01-01 2y ago
>Never satisfied, I tried some other models. But, no—the model that everyone says are the best were indeed the best. So let’s review: I had a problem. The ultimate solution to my problem was to do the most obvious possible thing. But I convinced myself that wouldn’t work and spent two years trying everything else. "Try a non-creative approach." -Albert Einstein
mauvehaus 2y ago
I wear earmuffs for work pretty regularly for extended periods of time. If you get ones with the metal connector between the ear covers, you can spring it so they aren't so tight over your head. The usual failure mode on earmuffs is the cushion bit that seals around your ear drying out and getting brittle. Or the foam in the ear cushions getting hard or breaking down. When either of those things happens, it's time for new earmuffs (or ear cushions if you can find the parts). These are the ones I use: https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Pro-Grade-Earmuff-90565-4DC-PS/301277013 https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Pro-Grade-Earmuff-90565-4DC-P...
runjake 2y ago
I explored similar solutions but recently switched from AirPods Pro to AirPods Pro 2. I was genuinely surprised by how much better the noise canceling was for my needs, such as working in the office and doing yard work. Last night, I used them at a sporting event where loud techno music was playing, and I could hardly hear the music while clearly listening to my podcast. Proper fit of the earbuds is absolutely key and AirPods don't match everyone's ear shape, so YMMV.
- chasd00 2y ago
  i've fantasized about some kind of external noise cancelling system for use at a gun range. It would be nice to have something that would make it bearable to be behind someone shooting a firearm without ear protection. btw, you know in action movies when there's 10 people with automatic weapons shooting it out in a building and talking to each other? yeah.right. firearms are so unbelievable loud, there's no way any conversation is happening in that environment. further, video doesn't do the supersonic blast justice at all it's something you have to experience.
  - InitialLastName 2y ago
    AIUI, active noise cancelling doesn't really work well for impulsive sources like gunshots because the impulse does not exist for enough time for predictive interference to function. Additionally, because noise cancellation depends on the phase of the wave relative to the receivers (your ears) it really needs to be within ~1/4 wavelength of your ears, or 3" at 1kHz. In gun ranges, what you would probably benefit most from is passive energy reduction, so ear protectors (already usually covered) and acoustical treatment. However, acoustical surface is very expensive where flat concrete is cheap, so you end up with gun ranges being big reverberative spaces instead.
    - RandallBrown 2y ago
      Not that this would be practical but could you connect the gun to a speaker and just play the inverse of a pre-recorded gunshot? You'd need to have lots of pre-recorded shots as I imagine there's some variation between guns, calibers, etc. but I wonder how well it could actually work.
philip-b 2y ago
>the model that everyone says are the best Is that airpods, or Bose something, or Sony something?
- jedimastert 2y ago
  No OP, but I can vouch for for Sony WH-1000X3 (not the most recent model but I assume they haven't gotten substantially worse). I know many autistic folks who use them for very similar audio sensitivity and use them myself.
- bkcooper 2y ago
  In the article, "quiet" and "comfort" are bolded in that section, indicating that they are referring to Bose QuietComfort headphones
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  Judging by the phrase “quiet and comfortable” (emphasis in the original), the author is using headphones from the Bose QuietComfort series. Those are, indeed, widely acklowledged as the most comfortable in each generation, including for prolonged periods. The ANC is also state of the art though possibly a bit worse than on the Sony XMs, and the battery is decent with the same caveat. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard the AirPods Max called the best on any of those fundamentals, only on the Apple ecosystem integration and the spatial audio. (The tuning is also ostensibly less plebeian than on Bose or Sony, but if you care for sound enough to be willing to spend AirPods Max money you’re probably getting the Focal Bathys instead anyway.)
LichenStone 2y ago
What I do to deal with general noise but specifically disruptive low frequency noise from my surroundings is to mask it, in particular with longform (often an hour long) dub techno tracks. CV313 is good for this. It's the only good way to counteract the subsonic energy coming through my walls and ceiling. We experience sub frequencies with our whole body, certainly I seem to have a high sensitivity to the 5-30Hz stuff. So no amount of ear plugging will be really that effective.
joshdavham 2y ago
Noise cancelling headphones have quite literally been one of the best things I've ever spent money on. I started using them three years ago (about a year out of college) and I was immediately filled with immense regret that I didn't invest in a pair earlier. Noise cancellers have made it so much easier for me to focus, they've lowered my stress levels, made me a more effective programmer and even made me a nicer person. I also recently just shelled out $600CAD for a new pair of Bose noise cancellers and they were worth every single loonie!
sitkack 2y ago
His upstairs neighbors have their own channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU
sepositus 2y ago
I'm sensitive to noise, have been using noise-canceling headphones for many years, but just recently developed chronic tinnitus. I can still use the headphones, but I _have_ to be playing music in order to block out the ringing. Which then makes the original problem worse over time as my ears start to hurt from so much constant sound. Anyway, I've been in a real pickle for a few months now. Wondering if anyone else has the same problem?
- password4321 2y ago
  One recent discussion of many: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43082700#43083496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43082700#43083496
m463 2y ago
my noise journey: 1) try noise cancelling headphones NO: they have undefinable effects on your psyche. Maybe "pressure" or some sort of non-silent silence that your body still reacts to? 2) white noise, pink noise, music, classical music, new age music, atmospheric sounds, etc NO: actually, these are similar to noise-cancelling headphones. Your brain is still reacting to the sound in a non-passive way. 3) giant earmuffs NO: heavy, physical head pressure, etc solution) 3M ear classic NRR 33 earplugs. when I need to concentrate. while sleeping. Keep a pair around for "that guy" playing videos on his phone in public. The BEST. I buy 200 at a time. After reading this article, I wonder if noise-cancelling headphones + 3m earplugs might work together?
- deleted 2y ago
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- schiffern 2y ago
  This is me. I trim the length to ~half to avoid sticking out, which causes them to catch and loosen. I also find that washing them first with an organic soap (Dr B) can reduce skin irritation during long-duration wear. When earplugs get wet they inflate almost comically, but after drying they shrink back down to regular size. I use the rounded 3M EarSoft rather than the square-edge Ear Classic.[1] And actually, I just get the clone down at Harbor Fright... Presumably this changes the attenuation somewhat (and voids the cert), but any difference isn't noticeable and it helps a lot for long-duration comfort and overall wearability. (and yes, obviously I don't stick them in too far :D ) [1] https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/c/ppe/hearing-protection/earplugs/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/c/ppe/hearing-protection/earpl...
- homebrewer 2y ago
  > noise-cancelling headphones + 3m earplugs might work together Sure, any closed back headphones work and cancel out noise very nicely — I tried Sony WH-1000XM4, and they weren't much more effective than a pair of much cheaper closed backs without ANC. I've been living in this combo for many years (using ear plugs 24/7 and changing them as needed, headphones on top when not sleeping), and it's been really helpful in keeping me relatively sane. If you don't care about the sound quality, just set the volume to the max so it can yell through the ear plugs, and you don't have to take them out even when listening to something.
fracus 2y ago
I found the noise cancelling headphones don't completely eliminate loud intermittent noise but prevents them from being offensive and jarring. I use them almost all the time and worry they have negative long term effects. They certainly have positive effects though.
andrewflnr 2y ago
> (Earbuds inside the earmuffs don’t work because they get knocked out of position and then can’t be adjusted.) Interesting. I've used earbuds inside earmuffs quite a few times and not had this problem, except when the cord gets tugged. I definitely agree with the principle that if the experiment is fast and cheap, just do it.
- davesmylie 2y ago
  I've done this a lot - mostly with big machinery where the ANC on the earbuds, or the (not aviation quality) ear muffs alone don't suffice to bring the noise down to an acceptable level. It works well - but have them in long enough, particularly when physically working and the earbuds will loosen and shift. The seal on the earbuds with your ear canal is important, especially with ANC buds. Removing face shields and ear muffs to re-adjust earbuds is frustrating.
MinimalAction 2y ago
I completely understand the sentiments of the author. It's easy to fall into the trap of "it's too easy to be true; let me try out a 'clever' way", and fall into the cycle of figuring out things that have 100 different parameters and thus hard to model realistically. On the other hand though, which are the best noise-cancelling earphones or headphones? I've gone down this route, and haven't been satisfied with what was suggested. Airpods Pro 2 seems great at canceling noise, but sounds flat. Soundcore products have a phenomenal sound quality, but can't cancel noise as effectively.
- chrisldgk 2y ago
  Sony Head- and earphones have in my experience been the best at both. The WH-1000XM series are the best noise cancelling headphones I’ve tried so far and the WF-1000XM series are the best earphones I’ve had. My personal favorite tip is the Sony Linkbuds S, which aren’t as good as the WFs at either sound or noise canceling, however they’re the best price to performance you can get on the market IMO Edit: I should also say that the tuning on the WH headphones is pretty bass-heavy (somewhat obnoxiously so), so make sure to use an equalizer to remove some of that.
  - internet_points 2y ago
    I've never tried wireless earphones, only headphones. Do the WF-1000XM work for removing the noise of construction work and such? I'm thinking concrete drilling and circular saws and such
    - chrisldgk 2y ago
      Yes, it does a quite decent job in both high and low frequencies. The place I live in actually used to have a quite large construction area right next to it, so having something like this during the day was a godsend. You can still hear it of course, but it’s a lot more quiet. With earbuds specifically it helps that they also act as earplugs even when off, though enabling noise cancelling does get rid of even more noise.
dredmorbius 2y ago
I read this as far less about noise and its cancellation than about problem-solving, and in particular DYOR: do your own research. There is a reason we rely on experts, a large part of which is that good experimental design, execution, sampling of test subjects, and interpretation is hard. That's not to say it's impossible, and it's not that conventional wisdom / received understanding isn't often wrong (and there's nothing quite so profound an impediment to discovery of truth than solidly-embedded wrong understandings, especially at the cultural level). But at a starting point at least checking to see if what "everyone" believes, claims, and/or recommends is of value is a reasonable possibility to verify or refute early in a search. There's also the realisation that reasoning through a problem is almost always far less useful than actually trying the damned thing, which is to say experiment and empirical testing. This isn't completely contradictory to what I'd written above, as all the impediments to good experimentation apply many-fold to good Gedankenexperimenten, or thought experiments. A key difference between the two is that an actual experiment will tend to reveal your sloppy reasoning, rationale, and/or method in fairly short order, whilst thought experiments can lead you down the garden path. Kant critiqued pure reason for ... reasons. And for all that ... the author did learn something, and did realise their mistakes, and probably learned a bit more in the process than if they'd simply followed the initial consensus advice. But a different and perhaps more methodological approach could have arrived there sooner.
deleted 2y ago
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pkdpic 2y ago
Really appreciate this write up. Problems with noise almost destroyed my life a few times in SF, Marin, NYC and LA. Ironically moving to a more central urban location with mixed use zoning up in Sac seems to have solved my noise problems. Maybe a coincidence but go figure. When some dog starts losing it for 6 hours straight though I still reach for my shop earmuffs and wax plugs over regular plugs. The trifecta. It's literally like being at the bottom of the ocean. I should do it more, my efficiency at work or on personal projects jumps up an order of magnitude. It's seriously like a super power everyone should try it. PS would really love to see this entire post as an amazon review for Sony 1000XM4s. Just saying.
everyone 2y ago
The author learned something. It takes balls to describe how dumb you were like that, but that modesty and openness is a great attitude to have for learning.
- partomniscient 2y ago
  ...and informing and teaching others. We are learning through someone elses mistakes, it costs us very little albeit its one users anecdotal experience, and we should keep that in mind - we don't have their ears or their problem. It should also be noted it cost said author/teacher 2 years and a lot of $.
chilldsgn 2y ago
This article resonates with me. I have neighbours that have been renovating for the past 6 months (free-standing house) and the noise is unbearable, it causes physiological responses in my body and great anxiety. Another neighbour has a gardener that spends half the day blowing leaves in his backyard every Saturday and it's making me hate living here. I like this house and neighbourhood, but the noise ruins it. I'm sick of people telling me I'm being facetious when I get upset about the noise. I tried my shooting earmuffs, which do help a bit, but the annoying sounds come through. I finally resorted to noise-cancelling headphones, albeit cheap-ish ones from Sony and the past couple of days have been great. My focus has improved and I feel less exhausted. The headphones are the only thing I changed about my lifestyle. I hope I can move out of the city in the future, the noise is really draining.
ddmf 2y ago
I'm really sensitive to sounds, my neighbours above me and to the sides of me tag teamed my life to almost suicide. I had bose nc700s, I slept with loop quiets. I tried airpod pros, moving the furniture around but it seemed my bedroom was a bass resonator. Moved to a semi detached house, it's so quiet.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  "a lifestyle composed principally of stomping" Love that. I seriously considered making a periscope to stick out the window and find out WTF my upstairs neighbors were doing. The whole building shook. So now I have a house, in a relatively quiet area. My girlfriend does voiceover, and built herself a sound booth in a tiny closet that's perfect for it. Except we have a next-door neighbor who inexplicably starts his truck pretty much every hour and... sits in it? He just lets it run and run. I have no idea WTF this guy is doing. Sometimes he pulls out of his driveway and goes around the block and comes back. His windshield is plastered with a sticker that says, "Runs on liberal tears." I'm not sure if we've met him or not, because I don't know which of the people he is among two houses. And I wouldn't normally give a rat's ass about his weird behavior. But the low-frequency engine noise can't be blocked by sound-deadening treatment. It basically means my girlfriend can't work in her own home. This guy has to live next to probably the ONE person in the neighborhood who's trying to record for a livelihood.
animal531 2y ago
I very much miss our local Covid lockdown. For quite some time there were no cars on the road, people walking past and yelling at each other, planes overhead etc.
post_break 2y ago
He's talking about the QC45's or QC35's and yeah, they are that good. I could wear them 10 hours a day without issue, and they do lower the sound floor tremendously. They are not a perfect solution, but the cost to performance ratio is unbeatable.
reportgunner 2y ago
I don't mean to be insensitive or offensive but this has always seemed like an XY problem to me. There are certain activities that humanity needs to do that need to produce noise, that's just how it is (e.g. building houses). We as a society have acknowledged this and that's why we have laws that restrict the activities to certain hours (e.g. 6:00 to 22:00 in my country. I also can hear the noises and they are also not pleasant to me, but I have learned to deal with it mentally or physically (leave while the noise is being made until it's illegal to make it). I see it as an XY problem because it seems that the people who mind the noise think that they can make it go away by "muting" or "ignoring" the noise instead of accepting that the noise is inevitable and learning to deal with it.
- appleorchard46 2y ago
  You assume other people are not more bothered by sounds than you. Also, I don't see how this isn't an example of 'dealing with it'. You say you physically leave your house to escape the noise sometimes - getting a pair of noise-cancelling is significantly less disruptive to one's activities in comparison.
  - reportgunner 2y ago
    Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to disagree with the article, it was an interesting read. By physically leaving the house I was slightly hinting at the occurence where some of the buildings were not expected to be used for home working (or "being in use" during working hours) and therefore the construction and standards couldn't have considered that this might be a problem. (the rest of the time is covered by laws mandating no noise during night). I feel extremely priviledged to appear to not be bothered by noise, although that's who I have always been - just as the people who are bothered by it. Often times writing an e-mail in silence can be objectively less important for the society than someone building or maintaining a house. Other times people do make unnecessary noise or they make it at a time where it's expectably inconvenient to others around them - see germans not recycling glass at certain times of the week or not running a washing machine during late hours. All in all it's a complex problem of society vs individual (vs another individual)
- 2y ago
bob1029 2y ago
Moving is the only real solution. Nothing can stop the infrasonic sound. Noise level risk is the #1 criteria I look at when purchasing real estate. You know you're getting close to the end game when the only thing you are frustrated with is infrequent, small aircraft noise.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  It's definitely something I'll keep in mind whenever I move. Front of the house is a thoroughfare, back of the house depending on weather there's the noise of the various highways in the neighbourhood, and inside the house there's neighbour noises because it's a connected house. However. Quiet and disconnected real estate is a premium commodity, either due to base costs, or because it's far removed from 'society' so getting anywhere costs money and time. It's a tradeoff. I used to grow up fairly quiet, plenty of neighbourhood noises but otherwise quiet... except for the fighter jets from the local military airbase lmao.
memhole 2y ago
Sound proofing is really challenging. I've gone through similar dilemmas as the author. Just short of blocking all ability for air or vibrations to transfer, I don't think there's much you can do. Soft textures absorb sounds, which can kind of help. If it's via air ducts you can try to add baffles. I've been curious if there's studies on noise pollution and mental health.
nsxwolf 2y ago
Always live on the top floor. Be the one who stomps.
Night_Thastus 2y ago
I suffer this at work, mainly if I'm more in a thinking-mode than a doing-mode. I struggle very hard to concentrate and get anything done if there's noise around me. I'd be curious what model OP bought, maybe I could consider doing the same thing.
- pmcginn 2y ago
  The two brands that could have a claim to producing "the model that everyone says are the best" are Bose and Sony. For Bose, the QuietComfort Ultra are the top of the line, but the cheaper/older QuietComfort 45 and 35 are both good too. For Sony, the WH-1000XM4 is the consensus favorite, even though the XM5 is newer. I own the XM4 and the older XM3 and I prefer the XM3 because I like the way it sounds with nothing playing better. I don't know how to describe it but the "silence" of the XM4 with ANC on but nothing playing feels too artificial for me. For office use, though, I prefer the XM4 since it has bluetooth multipoint and I can use them easily with both my laptop and phone without mucking around in settings. I'm changing jobs and going from having my own office to hoteling desks, so I imagine I'll be wearing the Sony's a lot more and I'm not sure if they'll be comfortable enough for all day use. At home or on a plane, I usually need to give my ears a rest every hour or so. I'll give one of the Bose a shot if I can't deal with the Sony's all day. Apple is also very popular. I haven't tried the new AirPods with ANC, but I love the Pros. I have to fuss with them a bit to get a good seal, and they don't stand up to city or airplane use, but they're fine in a relatively quiet environment, and they're so small I pretty much always have them on me. I have no experience with the Max, but from what I've read they can be uncomfortable for some people.
mystified5016 2y ago
OP is probably autistic. I very clearly see the exact same line of thinking I take towards similar problems. I don't know why this type of AuDHD drives us this way but Jesus Christ is it awful. I'd have saved so many years of suffering if I'd just listened to the good advice and reason I'm constantly showered in. Best solution I've got is "suck it up and listen to someone you trust who isn't in your head". Still, that's really hard to do.
formerphotoj 2y ago
I get to "enjoy" low-frequency bass from musical events at a public park about a half mile away from my home. It sounds to me like someone in a car just outside my window, just one of those cars that go boom. Sadly, it's just people having their brand of fun. No defense against being in the natural frequency node.
standardUser 2y ago
I almost always wear noise-cancelling headphones with brown noise playing while I'm at home. It's easier than dealing with an upstairs neighbor who always seems to be moving and only knows how to heel-stomp. And it's the only way I've found to block out impact noises. It's frustrating that there's no solution to such a widespread problem. The only economical solution I can think of is building another layer of floor in the upstairs unit, but that's a solution that's unavailable to the person trying to solve the problem. And landlords have no incentive for that kind of work because most tenants endure the noise without complaint. My previous neighbors were very cooperative when I talked to them and they got some rugs and indoor slippers. But the best solution is to just walk lightly. It's second-nature to me to not walk heavily when I'm in small indoor spaces, but a lot of people don't have any awareness of how they walk. I'm also very tall and I think bigger people have a better sense of their physical impact. I'll have small parties here and I'm always interested in who moves gently versus who stomps around my apartment (with apologies to my downstairs neighbor) and it's never the largest people stomping.
- philomath_mn 2y ago
  Not trying to be smug or blithe, but this is one of the main things I love about living in the suburbs or the country: neighbors can only bother me outside (and they rarely do).
throwway120385 2y ago
This illustrates the difference between a scientific and an engineering approach to things. A scientist is going to review literature and try to develop a mathematical or mental model for the situation, then proceed to articulate different things to test from first principles. The engineer is going to spend a little time identifying a few pre-existing solutions to the problem and then order them by likelihood of working and by cost, then pick the solution that's most cost effective within the bounds of likelihood. Sometimes nothing you try works, and that's when you dip into research, but usually it's in the form of empirical characterization of the problem and the situation. And you're always trying to timebox the work because you have to solve a real problem in a reasonable amount of time and with minimal risk. You don't have time to go to the college library every time you have a question. So doing the stupidest thing that could possibly work is often the answer. If the answer is to go to the college library then you email a professor instead and offer them some money in exchange for a shortcut because they're going to be better at navigating the research than you ever could hope to be.

164 points by ustad 2y ago

What earphones did the author end up using? It is strange that after relating all the dead ends in some detail and found his solution, he does not share it.

thenthenthen 2y ago
I guess Bose QuietComfort (hinted at by the bold font). These are ON ear headphones. Not ideal for me personally. These will hurt after an hour or so depending on your ears I guess. I prefer the Sleepbuds II (see below also)
- joshdavham 2y ago
  These are the headphones I bought last week. From my experience, I can wear them hours on end and feel fine.
- johanbcn 2y ago
  That's right. I was digging through the comments on the substack version of the post and he confirmed it: https://dynomight.substack.com/p/noise/comment/17817515 https://dynomight.substack.com/p/noise/comment/17817515

byronic 2y ago

smashing molecules

thenthenthen 2y ago

I have been on a similar journey. The Bose headphones are nice, but hard to sleep with and they are ON-ear, which hirt my ears after an hour or so. The Bose Sleepbuds are okish, the best of all the products I tried, sadly discontinued. There was(is?) a reboot of the same product but do not have experience with those [0]. Anyone tried those ‘soft’ headband looking headphones for sleeping? Tips welcome [0] https://ozlosleep.com/ https://ozlosleep.com/

moab 2y ago
It's a real pity they got discontinued. The sleepbuds work fantastic and are the only product that works for me.
- fmajid 2y ago
  Anker makes these earbuds for sleep: https://www.soundcore.com/uk/products/sleep-a20-sleeping-earbuds https://www.soundcore.com/uk/products/sleep-a20-sleeping-ear... I haven't tried them myself, but they come highly recommended.
Timwi 2y ago
I assume that the article is not about sleeping. For sleeping, have you tried foam earplugs?
- Klaster_1 2y ago
  Foam plugs absolutely do the job. What I don't like about these is that after listening to a book or podcast before sleep you need to put these in. Some nights, you fall asleep during playback and wake up to dogs barking, annoyed. Other nights, you are on the verge of consciousness and can't be bothered to put the plugs in. Everything sound-related is always messy in many ways. I bet when we get high quality replacement digital ears you can mute, these will still have some stupid crap going on, like unstable device pairing.
  - thenthenthen 2y ago
    Foam doesnt work against the noise here. Sleep buds plus Quiet Comfort on max works a bit lol
blahlabs 2y ago
I have a set of sleepphones. They are okay. If I sleep on my side with the earphone directly over my ear, it does start to hurt, but just off with the volume a little higher works, depending on the content being played. I've also found they seem to move around a bit inside the head band and the volume varies a lot depending on where the earphone is in relation to my ear. The battery sits on the back on the band which may not be great for back sleepers. Any particular questions, happy to answer.

yapyap 2y ago

Man these were some well educated mr Bean level hijinks. I had to stifle a laugh multiple times reading it. One of the highlights was definitely: “I tried kits for making custom-molded earplugs. One hardly blocked any noise. Another had a small piece immediately break off deep inside my ear, resulting in legendary good times trying to remove it with a screw” like, why a screw? not tweezers, not anything of that sort? also the part about trying to have a conversation with the earmuffs on, lol. I feel for you OOP but still, pretty funny.

loloquwowndueo 2y ago
Why do you feel for object-oriented programming? :)

aredox 2y ago

This is a nice follow-up: https://dynomight.net/car-trouble/ https://dynomight.net/car-trouble/

stavros 2y ago
Yeah this seems to be a pattern with this guy. Maybe he just really enjoys thinking about stuff, though.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I saw the first recommended article being another one posted on HN earlier about a tea extract or whatever. Body / life hacker of sorts.

NKosmatos 2y ago

Noise pollution (or sound pollution) is a modern day era problem, and if I dare say disease. It’s getting more and more difficult to isolate ourselves, especially in urban environments. It never ceases to amaze me that blocking noise/sound (one of the weakest forces) is very difficult, whereas blocking light (being fastest and more “powerful”) is very easy. It might sound futuristic, but I expect noise canceling force fields to become an everyday household thing in a few years ;-)

stavros 2y ago
> It never ceases to amaze me that blocking noise/sound (one of the weakest forces) is very difficult, whereas blocking light (being fastest and more “powerful”) is very easy. How is sound weaker than light? Light is stopped by some thin cardboard, whereas sound will just breeze through walls.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Both have huge dynamic ranges, but consider: 1. We evolved to spend 50% of the time in the presence of a 1 kW/m^2 light source. 2. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity, sound intensity is 10log₁₀(I/I₀) dB, where I₀ = 1 picowatt/m^2, which means 1 kW/m^2 is ~150 dB, which is about what you get from standing 1 meter away from a jet engine (Wikipedia cited a book for that claim, and doesn't itself say which jet engine).
  - stavros 2y ago
    In terms of energy, sure, light is much more energetic, but the problem with sound is that it can reach your ears with orders of magnitude less energy than light can.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    The other side of this is that light (EMR) attenuates exceedingly rapidly in matter. Much (though not all) of it will pass through a few tens or hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere, but a distressingly thin piece of solid matter (or many liquids) will block or scatter it beyond all detection save residual thermal noise. (The fact that we can transmit light through hundreds or thousands of kilometers of solid glass is worth marvelling over.) Sound, being a vibration of matter itself rather than an electromagnetic field, actually often travels better through matter, particularly those low frequencies which are transmitted through structures or the ground itself. But yes, the far more energetically intense electromagnetic radiation is generally far more easily addressed than far weaker sound eminations.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

supermatt 2y ago

Does anyone have much experience with these headphones? I am looking for similar but dont like headphones pressing on my ears. Are the quietcomfort suitable for that? Is the ultra a worthy upgrade? Is there anything better on the market now? Redddit seems to suggest that Sony ANC is superior.

fmajid 2y ago
He was operating on outdated advice. Yes, 1990s ANC headphones would only work on repetitive noise, but the technology has advanced by leaps and bounds since. Sony and Apple AirPods Max are considered best-in-class.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > Sony and Apple AirPods Max are considered best-in-class. Inherited some Sony WF-1000XM4 and can confirm that they're really good at noise cancelling. Plus they have an ambient mode (with optional "filter in voices") which is helpful when you need to interact briefly.
- bqmjjx0kac 2y ago
  I'm more sensitive to noise than most -- AirPods Max are an incredible tool for me. Sometimes I just wear them without listening to anything to block out office noises, conversations, etc. Unavoidably, they get uncomfortable after a while, but it's on the order of hours. This is starting to sound like a sales pitch, but if anyone like me is on the fence, they're really an incredible product that has improved the quality of my life, which I don't say lightly.
  - ribs 2y ago
    For me the problem is mainly when trying to sleep, specifically, at Burning Man, where it can be very difficult. I used foam earplugs for years, but they leave something to be desired. The AirPods Max…get them on my ears correctly, and I’m in a forest. It’s uncanny. It was the most profound alteration to my experience there in years.
2y ago

criddell 2y ago

When the author mentioned they didn’t understand how our ears and brains process sound and then said they went back to first principles, I thought for sure they were going to end up working on their reaction to sounds and doing something like cognitive behavioral therapy.

theoreticalmal 2y ago
This was my thought too. Seems far easier to figure out a way to be okay with the noise than to go to great lengths to block it out
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I wonder if that's possible. I think to a degree it is, but at the same time, noise and whatnot goes deeper into the lizard brain.
jononor 2y ago
Yeah the psycho(logical) part of psychoacoustics is actually more important one wrt to noise annoyance.

metalman 2y ago

I have been thinking and learning about sound and noise control/isolation for a long time. I am quite sure that active noise cancellation in real domestic environments is impossible. Simple physical isolation will always be cheaper and more effective. The idea of portability is founded on an overly simplified and ancient demonstration of sign waves cancelling each other, and fataly leave out how human hearing actualy operates, and there are now indications that the very best active noise cancelling headphones, are working, but with side effects that are disorienting, and likely very bad for your health and brain.Do the deap, deap dive into just how sophisticated human hearing is at discerning usefull information in an increadably complecated environment, and the fact that there is NO OFF SWITCH, this isn't just an osiliscope excersise, your brain is fighting furiously to figure out what that wierd sound is, please be nice to your brain and dont feed it an endless unatural, impossible in nature, signal. 3 years of sound engineering in a past life, and still loving sound/music/audio and searching for implimentable solutions to NOISE

taeric 2y ago

I'm curiously watching the room noise cancelling tech that manta sleep is building. Looks promising. Curious if folks have experience with similar devices?

thih9 2y ago
Somewhat related: https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000090151 https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000090151 (2020) > Hyundai’s World’s First Road‒Noise Active Noise Control, RANC

relaxing 2y ago

I hope everyone reads to the end for the real takeaway — believing you can re-engineer a complex solution from first principles is generally a fool’s errand.

jefc1111 2y ago
It's a really good takeaway too. Analysis is a tool, not a way of life. My achilles heel, which is similar, but not the same, is attempting to over-optimise, to the detriment of myself and people around me. I have learnt that sometimes it is ok/best to act with little consideration. Usually it's worth quickly assessing what the worst case scenario is - if it's missing a flight, maybe it's good to apply some detailed analysis. If it's being 15 minutes late too the pub - maybe just get on with life and see what happens. It's a really difficult and pervasive behaviour though, which I find some people cannot understand. I can't go upstairs or downstairs at home without briefly wondering if there is some item that should be elsewhere (washing, scattered toys etc) that I could carry with me. I can't switch a light off without doing a quick evaluation of how long it will be until needs to be back on, and therefore whether or not it is in fact worth turning it off. Gah!
- anothereng 2y ago
  think of it as habits. It's a good habit to turn off lights when you leave a room but it's not a rule you have to do or else

patrickmay 2y ago

Great story. It reminded me of this quote: "A month in the laboratory can often save an hour in the library." -- Frank Westheimer

zimpenfish 2y ago
Similar sentiment used these days: "Weeks of work can save us hours of planning".
andrewflnr 2y ago
But what he's talking about is an hour in the laboratory saving him months in the library, so to speak. As usual, wisdom is knowing which situation you're in.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Except that they spent two years in the library and laboratory even though there was an obvious solution that they refused to try first. It's like replacing parts in a computer before checking if it's plugged in.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    Right, to be clear, an hour in the lab would have saved him years of research, if he had done it. All I'm saying is that the lab time vs research time question can go both ways.

brabel 2y ago

I have gone through a similar journey. In my case I believed the main problem was the neighbour next door. I got an extra layer of gypsum on the wall but turned out the noise comes from all sides. You can't win in such situation. Apartment buildings not built with noise isolation in mind should be illegal. Had to move out and went to live on a house that was absolutely silent. Well, as long as no one outside was mowing the lawn or something. Then, after 10 years, forgot the problem existed and decided to buy a new house near a busy road. What an idiot I am. Now going through all possibilities: already ordered an extra thick glass layer on my windows (it already has 3 layers), bought sound sound dampening panels (they do not do anything other than help a tiny amount with echo), sound dampening curtains (no effect, but at least stop the daylight well) and may even build a new fence and build glass walls around my balcony. But yeah, you can get used to traffic noise, I hear, and sound cancelling headphones solve the issue as long as I wear them (nearly all day anyway while I work)... it's getting better already after a couple of months. But stumping neighbours upstairs, your only defence really is headphones.

lukevp 2y ago
Can you plant bushes or shrubs between you and the road? Also if you add a water feature between you and the road it would add more constant background noise which would raise the baseline that noises would have to exceed before you could hear them.
- brabel 2y ago
  My house is on the top of a hill. There is already some trees in front of it but it would be impossible to put several lines of them which would be needed to have any effect. I believe a good glass fence in front of the house will help a lot (together with the extra glass on the windows) by reflecting away most of the direct noise (but no idea if that will really work). I've already gone through lots of discussions about it, and you're right, a water feature is suggested often, I need to have a look at that.
- Anechoic 2y ago
  > Can you plant bushes or shrubs between you and the road? A thin strip of foliage does (basically) nothing to reduce noise propagation. Dense foliage (meaning you can’t see anything through it or move through it) gets you about 1 dB reduction for every 10 feet of thickness.

jibbit 2y ago

I used to think background noise was my enemy.. until a week in a stifling motel with a clunky window unit proved me wrong. It started with me having tantrums that i'd never sleep and ended with me having some of the best sleep ever. I've slept with a noise machine ever since

Climatebamb 2y ago

I had a similiar thing with my eye sight: I couldn't believe or accept that my eye sight got really bad in a short period of time (i was 15). But i did compensate for 5 diopter relativly good. I did learn plenty of that research, made me more aware of eye sight and because i was very young, hard to say that it was obvious to just accept it at that time. In hindsight my school grades were definitly worste than they had to be... And regarding noise: We have a wonderful big lake here in germany and small mountains around it, you can hear the autobahn (going around it) everywhere and we really do a shitty job with handling car noise. Even on the small mountain or in the nature area you hear cars. I definitly will move out of the city in the next few years and in an area which does not have a autobahn close by. I'm happy driving 30-60 minutes to the autobahn.

Azkron 2y ago

Something that has helped me a lot when dealing with noise or other distractions is present time meditation. Just sit there and focus on actively hearing and feeling everything, I would just do 5 min sessions but quite often. After practicing this for while I became less distracted and more comfortable wherever I was.

swah 2y ago
Did you follow some guide or just "made it up" this particular method? Interesting!

ericyd 2y ago

This was a joy to read. This comment is not useful but sometimes I just want to share a reaction.

elric 2y ago

I hate having to wear headphones in order to block obnoxious sounds. Obnoxiously loud people should simply stop being obnoxiously loud. Houses needed better sound proofing. Vehicles need to be quieter. Planes shouldn't fly over densely populated areas. So much noise is utterly pointless. A symptom of wasted energy. Soundproofing homes during renovations is stupidly hard to do. E.g. I can't soundproof a party wall without tearing down and replacing a staircase. I installed new windows which block a lot of sound (double glazing, where each pane is of a different thickness), but noise makes it way in through vents and cracks all the same.

Ntrails 2y ago
Every night I can hear ubers reversing up the road with their obnoxiously loud lorry-style reversing warning beep. If I'm not already asleep, it keeps me up (and for some reason it takes them forever to park or whatever they're doing). Obviously it's marginally more safe than not having a beep! So, you know, ancillary impacts be damned...
- arp242 2y ago
  It's also a solved problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwJ5NCf1Vw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwJ5NCf1Vw Tesco delivery trucks have them here in Ireland; it's pretty good stuff. Still quite loud/noticeable when you're up close, while at the same time not being completely obnoxious to everyone in a kilometre radius. Looking at their website it mentions several patents, so perhaps that's one reason it's not more widely used.
  - amenhotep 2y ago
    Good lord, I've gone a long time without knowing what that was all about. First time I heard it I assumed the lorry had a broken reversing beep speaker or something!
- elric 2y ago
  Car alarms are similar. Maybe (but doubtfully) they'll prevent your car from being stolen/trashed/emptied. But at the cost of waking up an entire neighbourhood every time a bird shits on it a little too forcefully (or whatever it is that randomly sets off car alarms in the middle of the night). That's not a tradeoff that works for me. Your house is on fire? Fine, wake up the whole neighbourhood. You're in physical danger? Sure, emergency services can be as noisy as they need to be. Some of your stuff is in danger of being stolen? Meh, I don't want to get out of bed for that.

timerol 2y ago

(2023)

1970-01-01 2y ago

>Never satisfied, I tried some other models. But, no—the model that everyone says are the best were indeed the best. So let’s review: I had a problem. The ultimate solution to my problem was to do the most obvious possible thing. But I convinced myself that wouldn’t work and spent two years trying everything else. "Try a non-creative approach." -Albert Einstein

mauvehaus 2y ago

I wear earmuffs for work pretty regularly for extended periods of time. If you get ones with the metal connector between the ear covers, you can spring it so they aren't so tight over your head. The usual failure mode on earmuffs is the cushion bit that seals around your ear drying out and getting brittle. Or the foam in the ear cushions getting hard or breaking down. When either of those things happens, it's time for new earmuffs (or ear cushions if you can find the parts). These are the ones I use: https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Pro-Grade-Earmuff-90565-4DC-PS/301277013 https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Pro-Grade-Earmuff-90565-4DC-P...

runjake 2y ago

I explored similar solutions but recently switched from AirPods Pro to AirPods Pro 2. I was genuinely surprised by how much better the noise canceling was for my needs, such as working in the office and doing yard work. Last night, I used them at a sporting event where loud techno music was playing, and I could hardly hear the music while clearly listening to my podcast. Proper fit of the earbuds is absolutely key and AirPods don't match everyone's ear shape, so YMMV.

chasd00 2y ago
i've fantasized about some kind of external noise cancelling system for use at a gun range. It would be nice to have something that would make it bearable to be behind someone shooting a firearm without ear protection. btw, you know in action movies when there's 10 people with automatic weapons shooting it out in a building and talking to each other? yeah.right. firearms are so unbelievable loud, there's no way any conversation is happening in that environment. further, video doesn't do the supersonic blast justice at all it's something you have to experience.
- InitialLastName 2y ago
  AIUI, active noise cancelling doesn't really work well for impulsive sources like gunshots because the impulse does not exist for enough time for predictive interference to function. Additionally, because noise cancellation depends on the phase of the wave relative to the receivers (your ears) it really needs to be within ~1/4 wavelength of your ears, or 3" at 1kHz. In gun ranges, what you would probably benefit most from is passive energy reduction, so ear protectors (already usually covered) and acoustical treatment. However, acoustical surface is very expensive where flat concrete is cheap, so you end up with gun ranges being big reverberative spaces instead.
  - RandallBrown 2y ago
    Not that this would be practical but could you connect the gun to a speaker and just play the inverse of a pre-recorded gunshot? You'd need to have lots of pre-recorded shots as I imagine there's some variation between guns, calibers, etc. but I wonder how well it could actually work.

philip-b 2y ago

>the model that everyone says are the best Is that airpods, or Bose something, or Sony something?

jedimastert 2y ago
No OP, but I can vouch for for Sony WH-1000X3 (not the most recent model but I assume they haven't gotten substantially worse). I know many autistic folks who use them for very similar audio sensitivity and use them myself.
bkcooper 2y ago
In the article, "quiet" and "comfort" are bolded in that section, indicating that they are referring to Bose QuietComfort headphones
mananaysiempre 2y ago
Judging by the phrase “quiet and comfortable” (emphasis in the original), the author is using headphones from the Bose QuietComfort series. Those are, indeed, widely acklowledged as the most comfortable in each generation, including for prolonged periods. The ANC is also state of the art though possibly a bit worse than on the Sony XMs, and the battery is decent with the same caveat. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard the AirPods Max called the best on any of those fundamentals, only on the Apple ecosystem integration and the spatial audio. (The tuning is also ostensibly less plebeian than on Bose or Sony, but if you care for sound enough to be willing to spend AirPods Max money you’re probably getting the Focal Bathys instead anyway.)

LichenStone 2y ago

What I do to deal with general noise but specifically disruptive low frequency noise from my surroundings is to mask it, in particular with longform (often an hour long) dub techno tracks. CV313 is good for this. It's the only good way to counteract the subsonic energy coming through my walls and ceiling. We experience sub frequencies with our whole body, certainly I seem to have a high sensitivity to the 5-30Hz stuff. So no amount of ear plugging will be really that effective.

joshdavham 2y ago

Noise cancelling headphones have quite literally been one of the best things I've ever spent money on. I started using them three years ago (about a year out of college) and I was immediately filled with immense regret that I didn't invest in a pair earlier. Noise cancellers have made it so much easier for me to focus, they've lowered my stress levels, made me a more effective programmer and even made me a nicer person. I also recently just shelled out $600CAD for a new pair of Bose noise cancellers and they were worth every single loonie!

sitkack 2y ago

His upstairs neighbors have their own channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU

sepositus 2y ago

I'm sensitive to noise, have been using noise-canceling headphones for many years, but just recently developed chronic tinnitus. I can still use the headphones, but I _have_ to be playing music in order to block out the ringing. Which then makes the original problem worse over time as my ears start to hurt from so much constant sound. Anyway, I've been in a real pickle for a few months now. Wondering if anyone else has the same problem?

password4321 2y ago
One recent discussion of many: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43082700#43083496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43082700#43083496

m463 2y ago

my noise journey: 1) try noise cancelling headphones NO: they have undefinable effects on your psyche. Maybe "pressure" or some sort of non-silent silence that your body still reacts to? 2) white noise, pink noise, music, classical music, new age music, atmospheric sounds, etc NO: actually, these are similar to noise-cancelling headphones. Your brain is still reacting to the sound in a non-passive way. 3) giant earmuffs NO: heavy, physical head pressure, etc solution) 3M ear classic NRR 33 earplugs. when I need to concentrate. while sleeping. Keep a pair around for "that guy" playing videos on his phone in public. The BEST. I buy 200 at a time. After reading this article, I wonder if noise-cancelling headphones + 3m earplugs might work together?

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schiffern 2y ago
This is me. I trim the length to ~half to avoid sticking out, which causes them to catch and loosen. I also find that washing them first with an organic soap (Dr B) can reduce skin irritation during long-duration wear. When earplugs get wet they inflate almost comically, but after drying they shrink back down to regular size. I use the rounded 3M EarSoft rather than the square-edge Ear Classic.[1] And actually, I just get the clone down at Harbor Fright... Presumably this changes the attenuation somewhat (and voids the cert), but any difference isn't noticeable and it helps a lot for long-duration comfort and overall wearability. (and yes, obviously I don't stick them in too far :D ) [1] https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/c/ppe/hearing-protection/earplugs/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/c/ppe/hearing-protection/earpl...
homebrewer 2y ago
> noise-cancelling headphones + 3m earplugs might work together Sure, any closed back headphones work and cancel out noise very nicely — I tried Sony WH-1000XM4, and they weren't much more effective than a pair of much cheaper closed backs without ANC. I've been living in this combo for many years (using ear plugs 24/7 and changing them as needed, headphones on top when not sleeping), and it's been really helpful in keeping me relatively sane. If you don't care about the sound quality, just set the volume to the max so it can yell through the ear plugs, and you don't have to take them out even when listening to something.

fracus 2y ago

I found the noise cancelling headphones don't completely eliminate loud intermittent noise but prevents them from being offensive and jarring. I use them almost all the time and worry they have negative long term effects. They certainly have positive effects though.

andrewflnr 2y ago

> (Earbuds inside the earmuffs don’t work because they get knocked out of position and then can’t be adjusted.) Interesting. I've used earbuds inside earmuffs quite a few times and not had this problem, except when the cord gets tugged. I definitely agree with the principle that if the experiment is fast and cheap, just do it.

davesmylie 2y ago
I've done this a lot - mostly with big machinery where the ANC on the earbuds, or the (not aviation quality) ear muffs alone don't suffice to bring the noise down to an acceptable level. It works well - but have them in long enough, particularly when physically working and the earbuds will loosen and shift. The seal on the earbuds with your ear canal is important, especially with ANC buds. Removing face shields and ear muffs to re-adjust earbuds is frustrating.

MinimalAction 2y ago

I completely understand the sentiments of the author. It's easy to fall into the trap of "it's too easy to be true; let me try out a 'clever' way", and fall into the cycle of figuring out things that have 100 different parameters and thus hard to model realistically. On the other hand though, which are the best noise-cancelling earphones or headphones? I've gone down this route, and haven't been satisfied with what was suggested. Airpods Pro 2 seems great at canceling noise, but sounds flat. Soundcore products have a phenomenal sound quality, but can't cancel noise as effectively.

chrisldgk 2y ago
Sony Head- and earphones have in my experience been the best at both. The WH-1000XM series are the best noise cancelling headphones I’ve tried so far and the WF-1000XM series are the best earphones I’ve had. My personal favorite tip is the Sony Linkbuds S, which aren’t as good as the WFs at either sound or noise canceling, however they’re the best price to performance you can get on the market IMO Edit: I should also say that the tuning on the WH headphones is pretty bass-heavy (somewhat obnoxiously so), so make sure to use an equalizer to remove some of that.
- internet_points 2y ago
  I've never tried wireless earphones, only headphones. Do the WF-1000XM work for removing the noise of construction work and such? I'm thinking concrete drilling and circular saws and such
  - chrisldgk 2y ago
    Yes, it does a quite decent job in both high and low frequencies. The place I live in actually used to have a quite large construction area right next to it, so having something like this during the day was a godsend. You can still hear it of course, but it’s a lot more quiet. With earbuds specifically it helps that they also act as earplugs even when off, though enabling noise cancelling does get rid of even more noise.

dredmorbius 2y ago

I read this as far less about noise and its cancellation than about problem-solving, and in particular DYOR: do your own research. There is a reason we rely on experts, a large part of which is that good experimental design, execution, sampling of test subjects, and interpretation is hard. That's not to say it's impossible, and it's not that conventional wisdom / received understanding isn't often wrong (and there's nothing quite so profound an impediment to discovery of truth than solidly-embedded wrong understandings, especially at the cultural level). But at a starting point at least checking to see if what "everyone" believes, claims, and/or recommends is of value is a reasonable possibility to verify or refute early in a search. There's also the realisation that reasoning through a problem is almost always far less useful than actually trying the damned thing, which is to say experiment and empirical testing. This isn't completely contradictory to what I'd written above, as all the impediments to good experimentation apply many-fold to good Gedankenexperimenten, or thought experiments. A key difference between the two is that an actual experiment will tend to reveal your sloppy reasoning, rationale, and/or method in fairly short order, whilst thought experiments can lead you down the garden path. Kant critiqued pure reason for ... reasons. And for all that ... the author did learn something, and did realise their mistakes, and probably learned a bit more in the process than if they'd simply followed the initial consensus advice. But a different and perhaps more methodological approach could have arrived there sooner.

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pkdpic 2y ago

Really appreciate this write up. Problems with noise almost destroyed my life a few times in SF, Marin, NYC and LA. Ironically moving to a more central urban location with mixed use zoning up in Sac seems to have solved my noise problems. Maybe a coincidence but go figure. When some dog starts losing it for 6 hours straight though I still reach for my shop earmuffs and wax plugs over regular plugs. The trifecta. It's literally like being at the bottom of the ocean. I should do it more, my efficiency at work or on personal projects jumps up an order of magnitude. It's seriously like a super power everyone should try it. PS would really love to see this entire post as an amazon review for Sony 1000XM4s. Just saying.

everyone 2y ago

The author learned something. It takes balls to describe how dumb you were like that, but that modesty and openness is a great attitude to have for learning.

partomniscient 2y ago
...and informing and teaching others. We are learning through someone elses mistakes, it costs us very little albeit its one users anecdotal experience, and we should keep that in mind - we don't have their ears or their problem. It should also be noted it cost said author/teacher 2 years and a lot of $.

chilldsgn 2y ago

This article resonates with me. I have neighbours that have been renovating for the past 6 months (free-standing house) and the noise is unbearable, it causes physiological responses in my body and great anxiety. Another neighbour has a gardener that spends half the day blowing leaves in his backyard every Saturday and it's making me hate living here. I like this house and neighbourhood, but the noise ruins it. I'm sick of people telling me I'm being facetious when I get upset about the noise. I tried my shooting earmuffs, which do help a bit, but the annoying sounds come through. I finally resorted to noise-cancelling headphones, albeit cheap-ish ones from Sony and the past couple of days have been great. My focus has improved and I feel less exhausted. The headphones are the only thing I changed about my lifestyle. I hope I can move out of the city in the future, the noise is really draining.

ddmf 2y ago

I'm really sensitive to sounds, my neighbours above me and to the sides of me tag teamed my life to almost suicide. I had bose nc700s, I slept with loop quiets. I tried airpod pros, moving the furniture around but it seemed my bedroom was a bass resonator. Moved to a semi detached house, it's so quiet.

DidYaWipe 2y ago
"a lifestyle composed principally of stomping" Love that. I seriously considered making a periscope to stick out the window and find out WTF my upstairs neighbors were doing. The whole building shook. So now I have a house, in a relatively quiet area. My girlfriend does voiceover, and built herself a sound booth in a tiny closet that's perfect for it. Except we have a next-door neighbor who inexplicably starts his truck pretty much every hour and... sits in it? He just lets it run and run. I have no idea WTF this guy is doing. Sometimes he pulls out of his driveway and goes around the block and comes back. His windshield is plastered with a sticker that says, "Runs on liberal tears." I'm not sure if we've met him or not, because I don't know which of the people he is among two houses. And I wouldn't normally give a rat's ass about his weird behavior. But the low-frequency engine noise can't be blocked by sound-deadening treatment. It basically means my girlfriend can't work in her own home. This guy has to live next to probably the ONE person in the neighborhood who's trying to record for a livelihood.

animal531 2y ago

I very much miss our local Covid lockdown. For quite some time there were no cars on the road, people walking past and yelling at each other, planes overhead etc.

post_break 2y ago

He's talking about the QC45's or QC35's and yeah, they are that good. I could wear them 10 hours a day without issue, and they do lower the sound floor tremendously. They are not a perfect solution, but the cost to performance ratio is unbeatable.

reportgunner 2y ago

I don't mean to be insensitive or offensive but this has always seemed like an XY problem to me. There are certain activities that humanity needs to do that need to produce noise, that's just how it is (e.g. building houses). We as a society have acknowledged this and that's why we have laws that restrict the activities to certain hours (e.g. 6:00 to 22:00 in my country. I also can hear the noises and they are also not pleasant to me, but I have learned to deal with it mentally or physically (leave while the noise is being made until it's illegal to make it). I see it as an XY problem because it seems that the people who mind the noise think that they can make it go away by "muting" or "ignoring" the noise instead of accepting that the noise is inevitable and learning to deal with it.

appleorchard46 2y ago
You assume other people are not more bothered by sounds than you. Also, I don't see how this isn't an example of 'dealing with it'. You say you physically leave your house to escape the noise sometimes - getting a pair of noise-cancelling is significantly less disruptive to one's activities in comparison.
- reportgunner 2y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to disagree with the article, it was an interesting read. By physically leaving the house I was slightly hinting at the occurence where some of the buildings were not expected to be used for home working (or "being in use" during working hours) and therefore the construction and standards couldn't have considered that this might be a problem. (the rest of the time is covered by laws mandating no noise during night). I feel extremely priviledged to appear to not be bothered by noise, although that's who I have always been - just as the people who are bothered by it. Often times writing an e-mail in silence can be objectively less important for the society than someone building or maintaining a house. Other times people do make unnecessary noise or they make it at a time where it's expectably inconvenient to others around them - see germans not recycling glass at certain times of the week or not running a washing machine during late hours. All in all it's a complex problem of society vs individual (vs another individual)
2y ago

bob1029 2y ago

Moving is the only real solution. Nothing can stop the infrasonic sound. Noise level risk is the #1 criteria I look at when purchasing real estate. You know you're getting close to the end game when the only thing you are frustrated with is infrequent, small aircraft noise.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
It's definitely something I'll keep in mind whenever I move. Front of the house is a thoroughfare, back of the house depending on weather there's the noise of the various highways in the neighbourhood, and inside the house there's neighbour noises because it's a connected house. However. Quiet and disconnected real estate is a premium commodity, either due to base costs, or because it's far removed from 'society' so getting anywhere costs money and time. It's a tradeoff. I used to grow up fairly quiet, plenty of neighbourhood noises but otherwise quiet... except for the fighter jets from the local military airbase lmao.

memhole 2y ago

Sound proofing is really challenging. I've gone through similar dilemmas as the author. Just short of blocking all ability for air or vibrations to transfer, I don't think there's much you can do. Soft textures absorb sounds, which can kind of help. If it's via air ducts you can try to add baffles. I've been curious if there's studies on noise pollution and mental health.

nsxwolf 2y ago

Always live on the top floor. Be the one who stomps.

Night_Thastus 2y ago

I suffer this at work, mainly if I'm more in a thinking-mode than a doing-mode. I struggle very hard to concentrate and get anything done if there's noise around me. I'd be curious what model OP bought, maybe I could consider doing the same thing.

pmcginn 2y ago
The two brands that could have a claim to producing "the model that everyone says are the best" are Bose and Sony. For Bose, the QuietComfort Ultra are the top of the line, but the cheaper/older QuietComfort 45 and 35 are both good too. For Sony, the WH-1000XM4 is the consensus favorite, even though the XM5 is newer. I own the XM4 and the older XM3 and I prefer the XM3 because I like the way it sounds with nothing playing better. I don't know how to describe it but the "silence" of the XM4 with ANC on but nothing playing feels too artificial for me. For office use, though, I prefer the XM4 since it has bluetooth multipoint and I can use them easily with both my laptop and phone without mucking around in settings. I'm changing jobs and going from having my own office to hoteling desks, so I imagine I'll be wearing the Sony's a lot more and I'm not sure if they'll be comfortable enough for all day use. At home or on a plane, I usually need to give my ears a rest every hour or so. I'll give one of the Bose a shot if I can't deal with the Sony's all day. Apple is also very popular. I haven't tried the new AirPods with ANC, but I love the Pros. I have to fuss with them a bit to get a good seal, and they don't stand up to city or airplane use, but they're fine in a relatively quiet environment, and they're so small I pretty much always have them on me. I have no experience with the Max, but from what I've read they can be uncomfortable for some people.

mystified5016 2y ago

OP is probably autistic. I very clearly see the exact same line of thinking I take towards similar problems. I don't know why this type of AuDHD drives us this way but Jesus Christ is it awful. I'd have saved so many years of suffering if I'd just listened to the good advice and reason I'm constantly showered in. Best solution I've got is "suck it up and listen to someone you trust who isn't in your head". Still, that's really hard to do.

formerphotoj 2y ago

I get to "enjoy" low-frequency bass from musical events at a public park about a half mile away from my home. It sounds to me like someone in a car just outside my window, just one of those cars that go boom. Sadly, it's just people having their brand of fun. No defense against being in the natural frequency node.

standardUser 2y ago

I almost always wear noise-cancelling headphones with brown noise playing while I'm at home. It's easier than dealing with an upstairs neighbor who always seems to be moving and only knows how to heel-stomp. And it's the only way I've found to block out impact noises. It's frustrating that there's no solution to such a widespread problem. The only economical solution I can think of is building another layer of floor in the upstairs unit, but that's a solution that's unavailable to the person trying to solve the problem. And landlords have no incentive for that kind of work because most tenants endure the noise without complaint. My previous neighbors were very cooperative when I talked to them and they got some rugs and indoor slippers. But the best solution is to just walk lightly. It's second-nature to me to not walk heavily when I'm in small indoor spaces, but a lot of people don't have any awareness of how they walk. I'm also very tall and I think bigger people have a better sense of their physical impact. I'll have small parties here and I'm always interested in who moves gently versus who stomps around my apartment (with apologies to my downstairs neighbor) and it's never the largest people stomping.

philomath_mn 2y ago
Not trying to be smug or blithe, but this is one of the main things I love about living in the suburbs or the country: neighbors can only bother me outside (and they rarely do).

throwway120385 2y ago

This illustrates the difference between a scientific and an engineering approach to things. A scientist is going to review literature and try to develop a mathematical or mental model for the situation, then proceed to articulate different things to test from first principles. The engineer is going to spend a little time identifying a few pre-existing solutions to the problem and then order them by likelihood of working and by cost, then pick the solution that's most cost effective within the bounds of likelihood. Sometimes nothing you try works, and that's when you dip into research, but usually it's in the form of empirical characterization of the problem and the situation. And you're always trying to timebox the work because you have to solve a real problem in a reasonable amount of time and with minimal risk. You don't have time to go to the college library every time you have a question. So doing the stupidest thing that could possibly work is often the answer. If the answer is to go to the college library then you email a professor instead and offer them some money in exchange for a shortcut because they're going to be better at navigating the research than you ever could hope to be.